"Acts 2" Type Community

First of all, as I parused around this site, I was somewhat surprised to not find any mention of this on the forums. I'm also aware that many people here are involved in the normal, more institutional type churches. My question is - is anyone here involved in, or have insight, in Biblical community? I know brohter Art Katz lives in Minnesota with 8 or so families of believers. Anyone else? Any ideas?

Brian,I've just become interested in thi stopic myself. Although I have been aware of Katz's views for some time now, the Lord has just brought it to the forefront.Have just attended the first day of Katz's school in Melbourne, where the issue was discussed. Afternoon meeting run my group of "out of church christians", who were trying to figure out, "Where to now", with the whole community thing (ie, how it works, where to start, where do you draw the line before you have a "Branch Davidian" style cult, etc).I would appreciate anyone has any observations and experiences, to post them here.Thank you.

Lahry wrote:I find that there are so many christians, probably like yourselves who are starved for fellowship. They may or may not be a part of "institutional" church. They crave righteousness, holiness, peity and devotion, yet they are at a loss as to finding like minded faith in believers. Surely this is the hour of the apostacy.For me, it's not so much that. I find it quite easy to find true fellowship, because I work hard to maximise my transparency before others (no, I'm not 100% there yet). Generally people are more than prepared to open up and be real, when you're open and real yourself. My queries begin with a desire to see authentic fellowship that goes beyond the two services on a Sunday and Home fellowship group during the week. The kind of fellowship that makes it impossible to hide in the pews, etc. I know that there have been some out there over time who are active particpants in christian communtiy life (had priveledge of chatting extensively with one such brother over a few months). I am a "church building attender" (for want of a better term), who seems to be meeting several disillusioned christians, who have left the church "system" but really are just drifting along aimless. I have also met some who are in strong fellowship togther, outside of organised church systems, and are very mature in Christ. The problem is that all of these are either interstate or in other nations.Along with another brother, here in Melbourne, I'm beginning to have a heart to see these wilderness christians knit together. It kind of feels a bit like we're David with all the "soon-to-be-mighty-men-before-they-were" at the moment, but I'm comforted with the verse "Despise not the day of small beginings."Hence my request for any experience out there. Please, don't be shy. We need all the help we can get.

Hi guys,I just thought I'd bring this topic up to the surface. To paraphrase Art Katz "We so like to focus on far away things, full of excitement." (see Future Trends for the Body of Christ)I have recently read Dietrich Bonhoeffer's "Life Together", and was utterly blown away. Mostly by its offensive simplicity. My fond memories of the SI forums was that many of us are near obsessed with themes and issues that are pretty much irrelevant (voice of experience talking:-)).For a while now I have been increasingly focusing on the need for true Christian community. Life has propelled me into an experience of moving my family (myself, wife and two little children) into my parents house, while our house is being built. Not only this, but my parents have a border living with them. So there are three separate households cohabitating under one roof, including three separate opinions on how things should be done.One of the interesting things that I've had to get my head around is seeing Christ in others, and gauging my love for Christ by my expression of love toward them (harder than it sounds). To summarise Bonhoeffer, "To confuse Christian brotherhood with some wishful idea of religious fellowship is to poison it at its root. Ie, to prefer a extrorordinary social experience over true Christian brotherhood".The question is, can we put aside our ideals of what we think Christians should be like and be the Christians God wants us to be, in spite of being in the midst of imperfection (and might I add contributing our own imperfection to the equation)? This place is great for being able to share opinions and experiences with, however it is amazing how high a wall a keyboard is in between two people talking. Think about it, how many times do you hit the backspace button to self censor while typing? The "foot in mouth moments" necessary for strengthening relationships are greatly minimised.Perhaps this is the incesant rambling of an idealist, but as Leonard Ravenhill put it, "A man with a vision without a task is a visionary. If you have a task without a vision, its drudgery. If you have both the task and the vision that makes you a missionary." Show me a revival where the people weren't people dwelling together in unity. What would have happened to John Wesley if Zidendorf's Order of the Mustard Seed didn't produced the Moravians?May we grab hold of Bonhoeffer's (and Christ's for that matter) vison and take up the task of establishing communal life as when the church began.

I don't know if I have done this before, and if I have my apologies. I would caution folk on Bonhoeffer. He died as a brave man who was willing to die for what he believed, but was he Christian? He was a student of Barth and embraced many of his views including a very defective view of the scripture.There is a web-site which will collate some of Bonhoeffer's errant views which would encourage folk to read.

Hi Ron, good golly thats some website, the expose' section is incredible. I enjoy some of that material. :-(

Ron,Thanks for the link. I must admit that I have a love/hate relationship with Bonhoeffer. I have tried to read his stuff with an appreciation for his strengths as well as flaws, such as his participation in an assasination plot.I found the information in the link to be very interesting and worth looking into for someone like me, who is interested in the issues he tackled.One thing I will note however, is that evangelicals tend to draw implications from works they criticize that the author never intened to draw. Maybe the implications are valid, or maybe they are not...but my point is that they are imposed upon the writings.As such he has been pressed into service to be seen allied with all sorts of causes, from bombing abortion clinics to Marxism...things I believe he would have abhorred.For instance this comment..."Bonhoeffer proclaimed that God was dead." I have never read Bonhoeffer say such a thing, however I do feel he would have agreed with the german philosophic prognosis that belief in God is dead as far as modern man was concerned. I think, if he had lived to see our post-modern new age mysticism he would have been amazed.My concern is for saying all this is simple enough I guess: I don't want evangelicals to simplify and dismiss Bonhoeffer too fast. While his views of scripure are defective...I believe he still has value in showing us ways in which our views have some holes as well. A good example of this is how Bonhoeffers views on communal faith, verses our highly individualized faith, prompted CJaKfOrEs to start this thread.For instance this statement, which drew criticism from the link you provided,"the Christian is identified not by his beliefs, but by actions, by his participation in the suffering of God in the life of the world". In all fairness to Bonhoeffer, he was adressing a dead Lutheran church content to "feed on the carcass of grace" while Nazism was taking over society. While his statement doesn't work well in our modern churches where sound doctrine becomes the whole measuring stick, it certainly has substance in the outside world. (I really tried hard to avoid using the word “didactic” here. :-) ) It’s not a balanced statement, but it has merit. In fact I've heard similar sentiments expressed in these forums many times by expasterated Christians.There are times when I have read Bohnoeffer and I say to myself “I don’t agree with his evolutionary concessions, or his situational ethics, or his existential pessimism, but here at last is a Prostestant Christian discussing the 20th century in a way that resonates with me. He doesn’t pretend that simple apologetics answers the prickly questions. Now I am not defending Bonhoeffer on all counts, but I don’t think he deserves to be put on the evangelical trash heap, without at least a good hearing. Having said that, I certainly do not want to use this thread to champion all things Bonhoeffer. In all honesty, my defense is really a plea…if only I could find a truly orthodox Christian thinker who was willing to fully live in the 21st century without becoming a liberal theologian, or spending his time remembering how great life was during the 18th, and 19th centuries.I'm not saying there isn't any...just not any found in your average bookstore.Blessings,MC

good golly thats some website, the expose' section is incredible. I enjoy some of that material.Hi ZekeYes, its pretty comprehensive. If your name isn't on his banned list it's because he hasn't heard of you, I think, Nevertheless, his comments on Bonhoeffer have some validity although I also agree with MC's comments to a degree.Mike, why don't you kick off a topic in the Lounge section on ??? and lets talk over some of those issues. What aspects of failure to live in the 21st century should get our attention first?

and lets talk over some of those issues. What aspects of failure to live in the 21st century should get our attention first?That's funny...I was thinking you would ask me that! I think it sounds like a good idea...let me sort through my own fretting to see if there are some worthwhile themes worth discussing. (Most things make sense untill you say them out loud...) I am headed away for a week of rest with my family. Maybe that will be the perfect time to reflect on my statement...to see the substance in it.MC

Mikehave a good break. I look forward to your return and to hearing some of your thought provoking comments. :-)

Hello,just a short question: What is this thread about?The first post was interesting but what followed a lot less.Manfred

Karl, I can't help but answer you n this one. I hope it benefits anyone who is reading.Simple standards for a household are: lift the toilet seat, be home by 10, let the dog out before 10, take out the garbage, it's your turn to do the dishes, etc.. These kinds of standards are welcomed, but anything connected to scripture only brings problems, problems and more problems.I do think I understand where you are coming from however I cannot agree with the statement. I think that the majority of the standards ought to be biblical. Primary, of course, are the ones that Christ said were primary. "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Matt 23:23Having prioritized the 'weightier matters' people in small group situations who were wounded would have been less likely to be wounded. I know of a small group that was blown apart shortly before I was converted. My dad was part of the group along with a couple dear friends of mine when it happened. One of those dear friends has turned to the Catholic Church for refuge. Sad as it is, he is probably getting more refuge and care there than at the group church. The story goes, as told by my dad, that the group was filled with people that had and still have (most of them) an exceptional zeal for God. The leader was a very studious man but was authoritative in his approach to leadership. There were many times when the pastor acted inappropriately in an authoritative way. The group held together with great strength for a long while 'til it could do so no longer." "And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." Matt7:27Must go now but I will leave you all with the exhortation to unhuman humility.In Christ, Randy

There were many times when the pastor acted inappropriately in an authoritative way. The group held together with great strength for a long while 'til it could do so no longer.What you've shared here is certainly not a "Acts 2 type community", (I don't like the expression, but it's the title of this thread). There was no single "pastor" then.Manfred

I have been increasingly meditating on Bonhoeffer's statement of Christian Community not being an Ideal but a Devine Reality. It is so tempting to look at my present situation and point fingers at the family members who "aren't doing this community thing properly" or the church members that "won't lay down there own business for a brother and sister who's hurting", without considering the lack of patience in my own heart.The crucible of living life in intense closeness has revealed elements of selfishness that I long thought I'd dealt with. What a blessing it is to be unable to hide my true self from the group of people who band together against me at times for my spiritual edification. True edification (building up) requires a rooting out and tearing down, a destroying and throwing down, before a building and planting can occur.It is truly a beautiful thing to be able to see one's self in the negative descriptions on 2 Tim 3:2-9, which was never before noticed. It is so tempting to keep one's self occupied with who's good to listen to and who's not, or the how much we pray, fast, give, preach, and witness...but neglecting the fact that we "have not charity (agape)". We split hairs over the purity of Bonhoeffer of Barth's doctrine in this thread, due to there use of liberal terms, and yetwe neglect the heart and intent of the men.We even criticise Bonhoeffer for his involvement in an assasination attempt, which I agree was questionable. But before he cast the die of judgement, could we consider the frustration of a man living in a nation that was utterly mesmerised by the rantings of an occultic and murderous dictator. Don't forget that many christians were seduced into believing Hitler's claims about the Jews and Aryanism. Also consider that he was hanged only months prior to to Berlin's fall. So, how's your patience going? Mine's not so good, to be honest. Oh, by the way, if you're not sure if you have patience, then step out from behind the keyboard, and enter into fellowship without training wheels (ie, a 'backspace' key). Allow yourself to experience the act of foot in mouth, when you think you're speaking of good things. Allow yourself the luxury of rejection over stating things in a way that seems to twist the meaning of you intention. Then see how patient you are. How hard it is to bear misunderstanding. But how liberating to be misunderstood.Please, I'm honestly not directing this toward anyone in particular (Bro Ron and Mike I know your heart and have been incredibly blessed by your insight over the years), but attempting to pour out my heart in an attempt to pull us back on track and to respond to a question asked:Manfred wrote:just a short question: What is this thread about?(As far as the title, I believe it's an inferance to Acts 2:42-47, but really, the title is simply somantic, as with any thread)We can tend to think of the issue of fellowship as being a 'minor thing' when really it is the major. "What?", I hear you ask, "More important than evangelism?" Well, what do you plan on doing with the people you see converted? Just sending them out as nomads? Yes, I know that the great commission is of paramount importance, however Jesus Himself stated that the greatest commandment is to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength". But He didn't stop there, because he also said that the "second is like it", before stating the second as "love your neighbour as yourself". I've heard it said that the good samaitan parable is about reaching out to the lost, and while I believe this to be so, I think it's a little closed minded to minimise it down to that. Many christians tend to "love the lost" but "despise their brother". To me, the fact that the greatest commandment is tied together to the second greatest, by defining it a "like it", means that it is inseparatable. To love your brother is to love Christ, and to love Christ is to love your brother.Please, I implore you, consider this. Weigh these words. It is easy to criticise my words, but tell me what is wrong with the heart of them. Is this issue too boring for you? Then perhaps you should consider that boredom is a signpost for the manifestation of covetousness. Boredom says, "I don't care if this is a good thing, but I want something better." I hope a haven't offend anyone with that statment, but the truth does hurt sometimes. Either way, know that I do love you guys.

Brother,I just feel to say something because you quoted me. But, English not being my mother tongue, I can't make head or tail of what you said here.You will have to expect an answer from the other folks here - my apologies.Manfred

Manfred wrote:Brother,I just feel to say something because you quoted me. But, English not being my mother tongue, I can't make head or tail of what you said here.You will have to expect an answer from the other folks here - my apologies.ManfredSorry Brother,The thread is about peoples practicle experiences in fellowshipping with other chritians on a daily basis, or at least beyond the usual Sunday and a mid week meeting. My rambling was to show a bit of my experiences in this, and to show the benefit of letting people see the parts of me that are normally easy to keep hidden, but easily seen when people are with me so much. That's all.Sorry for all the big words, and colorful phrases.:-)

Thank you brother for your explanations.I have been living church life in homes since 1987, so I have some experience of this. But I do not want to be associated with what is called the "House-Church Movement", which has become a fashionable movement like any other.In fact I know many such assemblies as ours over here in Europe, and no one really knows them because they don't advertise, they have no names, they're not registered as anything, etc... And they all are detached from the above-quoted movement.We are brothers and sisters meeting together in a simple fashion, desiring to give Christ his rightful place - which is the central one.We don't pretend being anything, and we certainly don't feel special nor superior to anyone else. We live what we live because we think that it is the Lord's way for us.Manfred