A brief eschatological primer

"For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, perstilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved." (Matthew 24:7-13)

Recapping the significant list:

- Nation against nation
- Kingdom against kingdom
- Famines, pestilences, earthquakes
- Christians persecuted and hated by all nations
- Many Christians offended and betraying one another
- Many false prophets
- Abounding lawlessness
- The love of many Christians growing cold
- Finally, the need for endurance

Taken from "Surviving the Last Days" by Derek Prince - copyright 2004.

Me: Finally, the need for endurance the list states. That perhaps needs to be underlined and highlighted. It makes me fearful that I likely know nothing of the type of endurance that these times will ultimately require if I am around at that time. Yet what if the birth pangs we think we are seeing are a herald that those times are indeed arriving.

I was an exceedingly avid reader of Derek Prince's literature and cassettes 'way-back-then'; and all the 'New Wine' Magazine writers of that time also.
By the way: you seem to have neglected to include a list of what our Lord is doing to triumph over the negative litany of events outlined in the List you presented here.
Maybe this is because of the limited word choice included in the article title ... namely: "surviving" as opposed to "overcoming".
We have a triumphant gospel!

hi, the important thing is that the only way to be saved,rather was ,being or shall be is through faith in the finished work of Jesus and by grace not works. this is why we are advised to labor to enter into that rest.jimp

Blayne stated,

"I was an exceedingly avid reader of Derek Prince's literature and cassettes 'way-back-then'; and all the 'New Wine' Magazine writers of that time also.
By the way: you seem to have neglected to include a list of what our Lord is doing to triumph over the negative litany of events outlined in the List you presented here.
Maybe this is because of the limited word choice included in the article title ... namely: "surviving" as opposed to "overcoming".

We have a triumphant gospel!"

Me: It was a brief list and excerpt I shared from the small booklet so there is more that could be said. I'm thinking though that having endured until the end would be overcoming.

Thanks for your input. I remember well the days of New Wine magazine also.

Hi! Docs
Indeed, those previous writings and thought world of the 'New Wine' ministries were an immense help to me at the time. I will forever be indebted to those pioneers of what they correctly named as 'new wine'.
By the way, I was more intending to be provocative by my comment than critical. Sometimes it requires that the contrariety be exaggerated to make the point. :)
The teachings of those involved with 'New Wine' ushered in a refreshing time for the church at the time. They gave much needed direction and were of great encouragement to many.
As you no doubt know for yourself, God is very much alive in this day and hour and continues to speak to His people (church). So it is that we happily embrace new and thoughts about His eternal purposes and intents for our lives ... because God speaks in this day too.

You said,

Hi! Docs

Indeed, those previous writings and thought world of the 'New Wine' ministries were an immense help to me at the time. I will forever be indebted to those pioneers of what they correctly named as 'new wine'.
By the way, I was more intending to be provocative by my comment than critical. Sometimes it requires that the contrariety be exaggerated to make the point. :)
The teachings of those involved with 'New Wine' ushered in a refreshing time for the church at the time. They gave much needed direction and were of great encouragement to many.
As you no doubt know for yourself, God is very much alive in this day and hour and continues to speak to His people (church). So it is that we happily embrace new and thoughts about His eternal purposes and intents for our lives ... because God speaks in this day too. (END)

Doc: No problem with expressing the contrary by making a exaggerated point. I understand.

Yes, those were some days back then when 'New Wine' was at its height. I was fresh and new and part of the Jeus Movement as the media liked to label it and during these days these men did do a lot for the church and were a swell source of encouragement of teaching and direction. I lived in a discipleship community for a time that was under Bob Mumford and it was anextraordinary time. I learned very much about actually being part of a functioning body during that time. Things did go a little sour though as we know and the movement or however you want to term it did come to an end. Since then many of us never dreamed that the charismatic movement would become a movement of excesses and outright weirdness at times that we have seen in the past few years and decade. It was disheartening and embarassing. But God indeed is alive today and is still working and we have much to remain excited about. Thanks for sharing with me.

Blessings from here,

"Doc"

I am going to be a downer on this thread- I have to say that there is nothing new from the original post. Are we to think now that these things are just now happening and as a result we are in the end times? These things have happening for centuries. Why do we Christians use it as a basis to to encourage Christians. I see it as an empty rallying cry and just another reason why some christian might fall away because it is a cry that is like crying wolf to a point. I don't consider it important enough to keeping crying out over it. Am I wrong somewhere along the line because of my opinion on it?

You said,

"I am going to be a downer on this thread- I have to say that there is nothing new from the original post. Are we to think now that these things are just now happening and as a result we are in the end times? These things have happening for centuries. Why do we Christians use it as a basis to to encourage Christians. I see it as an empty rallying cry and just another reason why some christian might fall away because it is a cry that is like crying wolf to a point. I don't consider it important enough to keeping crying out over it. Am I wrong somewhere along the line because of my opinion on it?" (END)

I think what you are missing is that the last days will center largely around the controversy of a Jewish presence in the holy land. The prophets spoke of a last days rage of the nations against Israel at the end of the age. The climatic age ending controversy would be impossible without a Jewish presence in the land when the land itself and its ownership and who is to own Jeruslaem in particular becomes the epicenter of strife around which events will swirl that shake world peace. When Christ's feet touch the earth again where will that be on earth is the million dollar question. I'm believing it will be to the same place in which He was rejected. It's no wonder this locale will be the apex around which the end of the age will occur. The things in the list I referenced have indeed occured before but now there is once again a Jewish presence in the holy land without which the final events of the age are impossible.

docs

Your original post says nothing about Israel. It only recites things that are happening now but things that have seemingly always happened. To me it is nothing remarkable or something totally set apart as it only started happening in this generation, except for the Israel thing. I personally don't gain anything from knowing nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, etc. This has happens for thousands of years so I never understood why it gets so emphasized. Please enlighten me more on it because I really don't understand the fascination behind it all.

John

You said,

"Your original post says nothing about Israel. It only recites things that are happening now but things that have seemingly always happened. To me it is nothing remarkable or something totally set apart as it only started happening in this generation, except for the Israel thing. I personally don't gain anything from knowing nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, etc. This has happens for thousands of years so I never understood why it gets so emphasized. Please enlighten me more on it because I really don't understand the fascination behind it all."

John

Doc: Yes, looking at it now I didn't say anything about Israel in my original post. My original intent was to share a short snippet from a small pamphlet booklet and call attention to the need for endurance during the time described in the book. It was meant to be a short encouragement to the saints, that's all. I guess I didn't really know what to make of your reply because, much to my suprise over the past few years, I've found that when Biblical eschatology is brought up that many times the conversation can quickly become cynical and even hostile. I'm thinking it is my fault on this end I but I really didn't know if you were being cynical or were truly interested. So I replied in the best way I thought realizing now that I did introduce a new vein regarding Israel that I hadn't mentioned in my original post. If one is not interested in eschatology then I suppose the list and the nation rising against nation etc. would be of no real interest since those things have always existed since the time of Jesus. I don't know if you are really interested or not but it's my opinion that the things I listed will increase in intensity during the last of the last days and I thought I would make mention of them and stress the need for endurance. After efforts to fine tune my eschatological views and see all things in their full scope and full context, I believe that as these things increase that a world shaking controversy surrounding Israel and the "land" will also be part of the mix of events. If the list of nation against nation and wars and rumors of wars etc. does nothing for you then all I can say is that is part of the large picture that Christ presented when asked about signs preceding His coming and the end of the age. It's a vital part of the eschatological witness that scripture presents. The list was taken from Matthew 24:7-13. The fuller picture which includes Israel and Jerusalem can be found in Matthew 24:8-51. Just keep reading in other words. Thanks and I hope I haven't sounded preachy and I'm sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

Blessings.

Docs

I am only somewhat interested in eschatology. When it comes to 'end times' stuff I am not at all interested in the 'nation against nation' stuff because it really doesn't mean anything to me. If it were something that just began happening and history showed it then that is one thing but it isn't like that. Technology and the expansion of knowledge would be a much better fit to talk about end times. Does that make sense?

EverseetoSama

Again, as in my other post, I don't know that saying spiritual deception is a tell tale sign of the end days. If it is then this means that spiritual deception hasn't happened alot until recently, would you agree? 2 things that we can agree on that has happened recently in dramatic fashion. Israel becoming a state and the rise of technology and knowledge. Beyond that it really isn't something knew. This is a reason why it is hard for me to go hardcore into 'end times' stuff because too many people blow alot smoke with it and the unsuspected fall hook line and sinker for it. Does that make any sense?

John

Hi DEADn,

You said,

"I am only somewhat interested in eschatology. When it comes to 'end times' stuff I am not at all interested in the 'nation against nation' stuff because it really doesn't mean anything to me. If it were something that just began happening and history showed it then that is one thing but it isn't like that. Technology and the expansion of knowledge would be a much better fit to talk about end times. Does that make sense?"

Again, I would advise you to read past the nation against nations passages and continue on until the end of these chapters that deal with such. Israel and Jerusalem are mentioned with specificity so the end time events are impossible without a Jewish presence in the land. It's my opinion that it isn't so much a question of where did the prophets speak of a final spiritual restoration of Israel at the end of the age but where didn't they speak of it. It's their main theme regarding the end of the age. Of course that restoration will be in Christ.

Regarding the expansion of knowledge, I find that the way the Amplified Bible presents Daniel 12:4 to be intriguing. The people who put the Amplifed Bible together were no rookies and they spent untold thouands of hours doing their research. In line with their efforts to expand and amplify on the meaning of each verse, their rendition of the verse is,

4 - But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro and search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God’s purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased and become great. (Daniel 12:4)

Many scholars agree that this is more in line with Daniel's original thoughts than the typical versions that are thoght to mean that there wil be a expansion of man's technological, scientific and medical knowledge etc. That may be part of the expansion but is that all? Daniel was told that "these words would be concealed and sealed up uhtil the end time" when "none of the wicked will understand" but "those who have insight will understand" (Daniel 12:9-10). This insight will likely come from a "anxious" (diligent and determined) search of the prophetic books as to their meaning and relevance for the end of the age. So a turning to and a searching out of the prophets will be a sign of the end also. One of the best things I can recommend for fellow saints is to study again the writings of the prophets and Jesus so as to help us understand the meaning of the times we live in and the signs we already see. Many are already doing so. If we still have questions then let's get together and study. I've found that the study of eschatology is not such a plodding through a science fiction maze as many seem to think it is. The prophets all spoke of a Jewish presence in the holy land and a last days controversy surrounding their presence. That is the epicenter around which the events of the end will swirl. If one still has questions then we need to expand our knowledge of the prophetic books and what they reveal about His prophetic plan at the end of the age.

Blessings to you.