Do men sin because they are sinners or are they sinners because they sin ???

What is your view of St Augustines Doctrine of Original sin ?? A change in my understanding of the subject greatly changed my life!

Both. What changed your understanding?

In Christ: Phillip

QUOTE: "Do men sin because they are sinners or are they sinners because they sin ???"==PROUDPAPA

BOTH.

Re: What changed your understanding?

I had my understanding challenged.

For years I struggled in habitual sin a sincere Christian on one hand but a slave to sin on the other. I excused it in my head by the orthodox misunderstanding of Romans 7 as the normal Christian Life and a belief that my very nature was sin.

I've heard Chuck Smith explain it this way:
When a person steals a horse it doesn't make him a horse thief, it just proves that he already is one.

The important thing is that the horse thief is guilty of this sin at the point in time when he decides in his heart to commit the sin and not at the conclusion of the stealing of the horse. Sin is a matter of the heart first and foremost. Only after the heart is corrupted will the body act on it. Romans chapters 6 and 7 view sin as a principle acting on the heart, mind and will of a person. The fruit of this inward corruption is the act of sin. The religious Pharisees of Jesus' time were extremely careful and observant of external outer deeds (whether sinful or righteous) and ignored the more important state of the heart. Jesus rebuked them and declared that lusting in the heart after a woman is just as sinful as actually committing fornication and railing at someone as a fool is a sin worthy of death and hell.

hi, watch out for coveting.

Re: When a person steals a horse it doesn't make him a horse thief, it just proves that he already is one.

If the man had not believed in his heart that he was a horse thief would he have stole the horse??

proudpapa said:

If the man had not believed in his heart that he was a horse thief would he have stole the horse??

My response:
What a strange question. I have no idea what point you are trying to make or where you are going with this question.

I have never heard of criminals asking themselves "do I believe I am a criminal?" before committing a crime. I've heard both sides of the arguments for original sin and against it (Pelagianism) and I don't recall anyone bringing up the idea that one's own personal belief about one's state of sinfulness had any bearing on anything. There are plenty of criminals who with a straight face have no shame or any remorse and see nothing wrong with their behavior. They are deluded and have a conscience that is seared as with a hot iron. It proves nothing.

"RE: My response: What a strange question. I have no idea what point you are trying to make or where you are going with this question."

OK Let me ask it this away If the horse thief had believed in his heart that he was dead to sin imputed with the righteousness of Christ freed from sin a child of God would he be still be tempted to steal the horse ??

"RE There are plenty of criminals who with a straight face have no shame or any remorse and see nothing wrong with their behavior. They are deluded and have a conscience that is seared as with a hot iron. It proves nothing."

I agree on the surface they do not show shame or remorse but they are controled by Guilt. They will use every drug,drink or other sin to escape for one second the reality of what there conscience screams at them.

Hi! ProudPapa
I'm hoping you mean your Nick to say that your Heavenly Papa is exceedingly pleased with you. :)
I start with the asking of a question:
Let's say you are watching the television News and you see the News Anchor plainly displayed on the screen.
If you tore the TV set apart into a zillion pieces, would you find the News Anchor?
Of course not.
The News Anchor was merely imaged on the screen; his actual person was located perhaps three hundred miles distance.
We can use the same metaphor to describe a situation that belongs to every man.
If we were to tear a man apart into microscopic pieces we would never discover a thought nor find the person himself.
This is primarily because both the TV and man behave as receivers. Depending on which channel you choose, dictates what image is displayed on the TV screen. Depending which side of the Kingdom of Heaven a man is seeking inspiration from dictates what becomes evident in/through his physical body.
If a man is seen bent over under depression, you know that he is being inspired from the dark side of the Kingdom of Heaven ... the kingdom of darkness. If a man displays joy and peace, you know that he has his thoughts on things from out of the Kingdom of Light.
This is how we must view sin. Sin does not belong to us ... the ideas behind Original Sin are entirely wrong. But we can volunteer to take possession of the powers of sin ... agree with their inspirations ... put our faith in their lies and subsequently become injured within our inner man.
There is alot more that could be said about Sin, but I don't think anyone desires a lengthy Bible Study about it here. :)

Oh, I see where you are coming from now. You are talking about a born again believer who has a history in the past of stealing horses and who now is reckoning themselves dead to sin. Would he be tempted?

From my experience, true faith and trust in the finished work of Christ (death, burial, and resurrection) means that we need not struggle or try by willpower to deliver ourselves. Any kind of panic praying is a sure sign that you will fall. Give it into God's hands and take your own hand off the matter. This really isn't passivity as the critics would portray it. It is resting in the victory that the Lord has already won for us. Battle from a position of victory not for victory. Sanctification is obtained, not attained.

The only other thing I would add is that not focusing on temptation and sin is crucial. Live out of and see yourself as your new man identity in Christ. If you think the Christian life is constantly battling sin, it will be. I cannot stress enough the importance of seeing yourself as righteous and holy IN CHRIST. Live out of that identity and reality. It is a moment by moment walk. You will fall. Pick up and continue in the Spirit. I am not preaching sinless perfectionism here.

"RE: My response: What a strange question. I have no idea what point you are trying to make or where you are going with this question"

RE: I Wrote If the horse thief had believed in his heart that he was dead to sin imputed with the righteousness of Christ freed from sin a child of God would he still be tempted to steal the horse ??

OK lets say rather than believing this in his heart he believed That truly what he was was a horse thief he could not help it, His great grandfather was a horse thief and it is in his DNA to be a horse thief even though on the one hand he believes he has been imputed with rightousness he also believes at the same time he is a horse thief it is in his blood. It will always be a part of him in this life because it is in his blood and at times it will control him and at times his new nature will control him.
Will this man still be tempted to be a horse thief??

My last post went out before this one came in.

"RE: Oh, I see where you are coming from now. You are talking about a born again believer who has a history in the past of stealing horses and who now is reckoning themselves dead to sin. Would he be tempted?

From my experience, true faith and trust in the finished work of Christ (death, burial, and resurrection) means that we need not struggle or try by willpower to deliver ourselves. Any kind of panic praying is a sure sign that you will fall. Give it into God's hands and take your own hand off the matter. This really isn't passivity as the critics would portray it. It is resting in the victory that the Lord has already won for us. Battle from a position of victory not for victory. Sanctification is obtained, not attained.

The only other thing I would add is that not focusing on temptation and sin is crucial. Live out of and see yourself as your new man identity in Christ. If you think the Christian life is constantly battling sin, it will be. I cannot stress enough the importance of seeing yourself as righteous and holy IN CHRIST. Live out of that identity and reality. It is a moment by moment walk. You will fall. Pick up and continue in the Spirit. I am not preaching sinless perfectionism here."

AMEN.

Romans chapter 6 tells us that when Christ died on the Cross, we were there with him and died with him. We died to sin. I interpret that to mean that our new-born spirit man is dead to sin and cannot sin. We live in bodies and have a soul that is not redeemed or glorified yet and they can lead us to sin if we aren't spirit controlled believers. Born again believers are meant to live from their spirit. That is to say their spirit rules over their soul and body. Paul says that in his flesh dwells "no good thing." The flesh will always want to commit sin. The deeds of the flesh listed in Galatians are all sins. The mind of the believer is not fully renewed. Old memories of sinful reveries are always accessible and can fuel sinful passions in an instant.

To get back to your point about sin being in your DNA: that all died with Christ. It has to be reckoned a fact to experience the reality of it. It is not something felt or experienced by mere mental assent or acquiescence to a theological doctrine. And even then, the body and soul can still pull one's affections to be sinfully inclined. We are free from sin's domain, but we must walk soberly and watchfully because our bodies and unrenewed parts of our minds still enjoy sin and will pull us in that direction if we aren't careful.

Hi! True Witness
I have read your Post with great interest. Thanks for sharing it with us here.

"Dead to sin". That particular phrase seems to have been abused by many of us at one time or another. Perhaps it could be better understood as "dead to the power of Sin".
You wrote: "True faith and trust in the finished work of Christ ... means that we need not struggle or try by will power to deliver ourselves". This kind of thinking does not seem to have been the experience of Jesus. Maybe you should re-read the numerous scriptural accounts of His struggles. And, re-read similar accounts about His apostles too.

You are correct in saying that you're not recommending 'passivity'. I perceive it more in keeping with the act of 'treading water'.
It all can become such a confusing play on words and therein is the stealth of the falsehood.

If we say that the victory is not won as yet, there will be an audible gasp of disapproval. If we say that the victory has been won but that we simply need to confess it for ourselves, it removes the need for us to desire an intimate cooperation with the eternal purposes of God.
What I found most puzzling was that on one hand you state that "we need not struggle" and a few sentences later state the contrary, "battle from a position of victory". Which one is it? If the victory is already accomplished, there should be no further need to battle.

Of course, you have the additional simplistic advice of "not focusing on temptation and sin". But this too is at serious odds with Scripture.

The flood of Noah’s days is an image of the things that will happen in the latter days. At the flood, the windows of the heavens were opened and also the fountains of the great deep as the waters covered the whole earth. Similarly, the Bible states that in the latter days an invasion of powers from heaven will throw themselves on the earth and the hosts of the powers called up from the Bottomless Pit will cover the earth.

The biblical flood is an image of the great tribulation. As Noah was saved in the visible world from the flood that covered the earth, so the Lord is preparing a people to Himself in these days which will be saved from the fiery ordeal that is about to engulf the entire earth. The spiritual life of the people who are not in Christ will then be completely overwhelmed by the powers of darkness. Jesus said: “Upon the earth distress of nations in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world; for the powers of heaven will be shaken”, (Luke 21:25-26).

There is no mention of fire or flood insurance in the Bible.

On the contrary! The Bible does implores us to, “take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand”. It speaks of those who are sealed and filled with the Spirit of God and how these will be able to overcome.

RE: Both

Did Jesus Christ have a sinful nature ??

Hi Proudpapa,

You asked:
"Did Jesus Christ have a sinful nature ??"

A friend of mine I think answered this pretty well when he said:

"Jesus is a good example during his incarnation, his divine nature is/was incapable of sinning. And His having a divine nature partly explains why he never sinned.
God has free will and yet simultaneously he cannot go against His nature (nor Deny Himself) so he cannot sin."

Russ

What is St Augustines Doctrine of Original sin....?

What is the orthodox misunderstanding of Romans 7?