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proudpapa Jun 2, 2012

If you are a deeper thinker or rather more in touch to Spirtual understandings than most commentaries I would apperciate any input in the following verses.
This is not a Forum meant to discuss the authenticity of verse 7 if you wish to leave it out that is fine, I still would like to hear your insight on the other verses. If you wish to include it all the better.
The topic of the nature of scriptures is for another forum another day.

1 John ch 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

T

Trekker Jun 2, 2012

Is there a question here?

These verses are the verses that testify to the existence of the Trinity; no other verses prove the Trinity like this passage does. The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost are all in this passage.

In my mind, these verses testify also that Christ(God the Son) came in the flesh (hence the mention of water and blood), by the Spirit.

I'm not sure if water refers to the water of the womb or of water baptism, or neither or both. Or if blood also refers to being born in the flesh or to shedding His blood on the cross.

P

proudpapa Jun 2, 2012

Hi Trekker, I have got that much out of these verses but I still think there must be something deeper I have been teaching 1 John in Sunday School for the past 6 months digging deep cutting past the surface but I have not been able to break through more than just the obvious so far in these verses.

sermonindex Jun 2, 2012

6 months?, you are trying to get deep. :)

When I try to get more understanding, I pray to find the parallels in the Old Testament.

So, instead of answering your question outright, I'll pose questions that hopefully 'salts' your appetite.

v5. Who is the ruler of the world? How did they get there? If we believe, what does it mean for someone to 'overcometh the world'?

v6. (Trekker's response is great here) Did he come by womb or baptism; neither or both? Does blood mean born of flesh or His blood at the cross?

v7. I'll skip :)

v8. Is this referring to creation and the fall? (The Spirit over the waters...; without the fall, there would be no need for blood of animals, then in full with Christ)

In context, I'd also ask myself is this Hebrew Logic? v6, v7, and v8 seem repetitive in a different way. Is the writer shouting at me? (The 3; which also points to the Proverb verse, cord of 3 is not easily broken)

Plainly:
- v6: Spirit, water, blood
- v7: Father, Word, Holy Ghost
- v8: Spirit, water, blood

[Hebrew Logic (the short version) is when repetition means shouting. I.E. Verily Verily. It's a point of emphasis. Something that the speaking/writer is trying to draw the listener in, in hopes they pay attention.]

It seems God got your attention by seeking for help (pun). Good luck, you are in my prayers.

B

Blayne Jun 2, 2012

Hi! ProudPapa
Since the only qualification you require is that someone be a "deep thinker" and predisposed to "spiritual understandings" than what might be discovered in the run-of-the-mill Commentaries perhaps I could volunteer.
Maybe I should clarify your "deep thinker" qualification and simply say that at best I'm only analytical.

I'm not intimidated by verse 7. Merely because I've spent many years wrestling and unraveling this sort of scriptural thread. Actually, that's how I ended up arriving here for the first time last week. I hurriedly dropped in after chasing a Google Search about the Trinity which resolved to this SermonIndex Site.
And, I suspect that there are some here who quietly wish that I hadn't. :) :)

So? What yuh think, ProudPapa? Wanna' discuss the verses with me? Or, am I jus' too scary fer yuh? :)

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by proudpapa on 2012/6/1 19:51:10

If you are a deeper thinker or rather more in touch to Spirtual understandings than most commentaries I would apperciate any input in the following verses.
This is not a Forum meant to discuss the authenticity of verse 7 if you wish to leave it out that is fine, I still would like to hear your insight on the other verses. If you wish to include it all the better.
The topic of the nature of scriptures is for another forum another day.

1 John ch 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

==================================

P

proudpapa Jun 2, 2012

Blayne I always look foward to reading your post. You where actualy one that I was hoping would respond you seldom give just another sterotypical answer.

RE: Blayne wrote "So? What yuh think, ProudPapa? Wanna' discuss the verses with me? Or, am I jus' too scary fer yuh? :)"

Whats your thoughts??

B

Blayne Jun 2, 2012

Hi! ProudPapa

Yep! Yuh got that one right, I've certainly never been known as 'sterotypical". However, I've occasionally been accused of being 'hysterical'. :)

Commentaries can be excellent study tools. But they should never become a substitute for the Spirit of Truth which is speaking to God's people in this very day and hour. Otherwise, we abandon ourselves to the limited knowledge of the ancestors from years/centuries past.

Having said that, I've often thought that it can be much more difficult to empty a man's head than to fill it. This is because a lot of people are so utterly attached to an idea or doctrine that they've become exceedingly resistant and even immune to any new and refreshing revealing of God's plan with men.

So, ProudPapa, it's only fair that I give you forewarning that a discussion of these verses might very well challenge some long held and cherished beliefs.

Ummm, the verses in question are setting out basic parameters to establish a pivotal truth. In fact, prior these verses, John gave the premise about of the name "Anointed" (vs1) and now he sets out the premise for name "Jesus" and "Lord" and later he addresses the premise of "Spirit" and "Word".

Understandably, a lot of people can stumble with these verses because they lack a complete understanding of the names and work of Jesus in the plan of God.

ProudPapa, the Scriptures behave as a multi-threaded garment which, when adorning the "hidden man of the heart", confirm the ultimate intentions and purposes of God towards us; both individually and collectively. Moreover, it's God's earnest desire that we recognize His working which then permits us to fully cooperate with them. After all, we are not mere spectators to the plans and purposes of God. On the contrary, we are very much participants.

John is setting out the very parameters of our cooperation and participation with the eternal counsel of God in these verses. He finds it necessary to first review the exalted place and position of all the participants; especially of God Himself, Jesus and the Spirit and their inter-connectivity / union with one another. Unless we come to know these things, we ourselves remain unable to also assume our rightful position of cooperation/participation with the plans and purposes of God.

So, ProudPapa, that's where we have to start. We have to come to know the place and position of God, Jesus and the Spirit in the workings of God's eternal counsel. These all function with specific tasks and in complete unity of purpose. Knowing that, we are then able to attach ourselves to their functions more closely and cooperate with them more readily.

I don't think that this Forum is suitable for our planned discussion. Frankly, I don't want to have to tolerate some of the expected frenzied comments from some of the more rude n' crude in here. So, perhaps the best thing we could do is to conduct this study via E-Mail. I will draft the study itself in segments and publish it to a WebPage and send you the appropriate Links where you can read them OnLine. If afterwards you wish to publish them here (SermonIndex) as a Thread, feel free to do so.

What yuh think 'bout that proposal?

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by proudpapa on 2012/6/2 8:06:04

Blayne I always look foward to reading your post. You where actualy one that I was hoping would respond you seldom give just another sterotypical answer.

RE: Blayne wrote "So? What yuh think, ProudPapa? Wanna' discuss the verses with me? Or, am I jus' too scary fer yuh? :)"

Whats your thoughts??

=================================

sermonindex Jun 3, 2012

I still would like to hear your insight on the other verses. If you wish to include it all the better

Hello Brother

Please find a few thoughts on the verses you references in the root of this OP. I pray they will be a blessing to you. From 1 John Chapter 5:5-8

Who is he that overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? (Verse 5)

Overcoming is seen in Scripture more clearly in Revelation: Speaking to the Churches.

Historically, overcoming as a “teaching” has been given a broader application than has been used on SI. On SI I have seen the term used in the narrow context of tribulation in North America. Those who are led to think this way, are I believe, expressing or thinking according to what they believe will happen in North America. It seems that this is an understanding which excludes the possibility of a pre-tribulation rapture and therefore of necessity saints in North America must learn to “overcome” tribulation.

In my own understanding which is directed to Rome and Jerusalem, this need to overcome is broader because of a belief that pre-tribulation rapture is a reality for those saints who live in the geographical region of the former Roman Empire. This includes the United Kingdom, most of Europe as well as North Africa and Turkey. There is no contradiction here if one adds that tribulation in North America is a pre-rapture judgement of God, on Babylon the City, The People and The Striving after Selfish Ambition. Whereas The Great Tribulation of Revelations, is preceded by “rapture” for those saints who live in The United Kingdom, Europe and North Africa and Turkey. In the former Roman Empire those saints who do not overcome before Tribulation would go through The Great Tribulation itself.

The distinctions are:

Judgment of God, on North America: producing an ability to overcome through suffering and a ceasing from sin. This is a compulsion not a choosing.

Overcoming, (which is the same as being dressed in readiness) for saints in The Former Roman Empire, will result in “being raptured”. This is a being taken away.

Not overcoming (which is the same as a not being dressed in readiness) for saints in the Former Roman Empire, will result in a not being taken away, and will result in their being refined by The Great Tribulation.
On the other verses you referenced I simply present the following threads.

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. (Verse 6)

There are three references to water in Jesus life:

The water of the baptism of John: The Holy Spirit as a dove is the witness:
The water in to wine is the first miracle:
The water which flowed from the piercing of the Lord’s body:

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (Verse 7)

Jesus came to reveal the Father:
Jesus is called the Word of God:
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit:
Jesus is the fullness of God in bodily form: Thereby Jesus is the “Oneness”

And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one: (Verse 8)

Spirit

The Spirit as a dove bore witness of Jesus as a sign: Thereby the dove (The Spirit) is a witness:

Water

Jesus’ baptism is itself a witness:
The water into wine is a witness:
Jesus’ piercing is witnessed by the Soldier: Thereby the water is a witness:

Blood

Jesus’ shedding of His blood was witnessed publically. Thereby the shed blood is a witness:

The Holy Spirit Himself bears witness of these three:

Thereby the agreement is one by The Holy Spirit who bears witness of these things to those who love Christ and are born of His Spirit.

Andrew

Just a polite comment: By the way you asked the question you have made it difficult for anyone to answer it. I have done so because it is important to answer it and not because I am a deep thinker of somehow have more spiritual understanding. No offence Brother.

sermonindex Jun 3, 2012

This is so interesting, not sure, but this is what I see here...take it with a grain of salt.
(KJV) 1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
What can prevail in this world? What conquers? What overcomes? I think it s clearly implied here that Nothing can overcome but faith than holds fast to the fact that Jesus is the offspring of God. Our faith can rest in nothing less. John is highlighting here that our comprehension of the person of Christ is essential. By comprehension, I don't mean intellectual understanding. Our minds are not adequate, our flesh is a hindrance. But to comprehend Him by faith in our spirit, as His Spirit bears witness with ours.
So, John continues in the next three verses to confirm what this means...in the world, what bears witness of who He is? In heaven, who bears witness? Does this stand in agreement? what they had witnessed was confirmed the Father, the Word, or the Spirit.
They had witnessed Jesus in the flesh declared as the only begotten of God. The Spirit of truth had confirmed their faith.

P

proudpapa Jun 5, 2012

Thank you all Trekker,Lovemeekhope,amrkelly,Leepadah and Blayne. I greatly apperciate you guys insight and will meditate on what you wrote, If God opens your mind to any thing new let me know!

P

proudpapa Jun 5, 2012

RE: Blayne wrote What yuh think 'bout that proposal?

OK!

B

Blayne Jun 5, 2012

Hi! Proudpapa
Wow! I jus' got tuh see the new an' improved 'REPLY' Button. Very kewl!
I'm now engaged with an E-Learning project which must be delivered to a client before the weekend. So, don't be anticipating any further reply about this in this Forum until this coming Thursday / June 07.

I suppose we would do well to start by properly identifying the name of Jesus Christ. Next, we will identify the work of Jesus Christ.

So, the first installment will address why it is of foremost importance to reckon with the meanings of the names given Him. The names which the Bible ascribes to Jesus show Who Jesus is and what He does. Together they portray Him in the fullness of His being and His work.

In the Bible, a person's name frequently describes the nature and the deeds behind it. This certainly applies for Jesus; God has given His only-begotten Son a name of high significance and importance. Besides this beautiful name, the Bible also states many other names of Jesus such as: Christ, Lord, Son of God, Son of man, Lamb of God. These names support the meaning of Jesus' name and they emphasize certain aspects of the task God has given Him.

The whole of these names characterize Jesus in who He is and in what He does. It describes His character and His way of working. It offers a view of His place and position in God's Kingdom as well as His divine task and assignment with regard to man and creation.

Among the great number of names that are ascribed to Jesus in the bible, there is only one name that has been given to Him at His birth as a human being. At all times everyone can address Him by this name. This is His only and true proper name: Jesus. All other names are functional names; they are names and titles which came forward during the development of His life.

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by proudpapa on 2012/6/4 20:05:39

RE: Blayne wrote What yuh think 'bout that proposal?

OK!
========================

J

jochbaptist Jun 5, 2012

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

For me this is part of a pattern in scripture where God deals with man as man deals with God. Eg. Abraham not sparing his son, then God not sparing His. David building God a house, God building him one. The Church is "born" as the spear drew water and blood, so the First is born by water (womb) and blood (of the virgin).

B

Blayne Jun 6, 2012

Hi! ProudPapa
About your earlier question concerning 1John:
If you examine these verses closely, the first thing you'll notice is that the verses place significant importance on believing Jesus is the Son of God.

It goes without saying that the key to these verses is that we should have a keen understanding of exactly what the name 'Son of God' fully means.
Only after our obtaining this knowledge about the exalted position of the 'Son of God' can we continue with the remaining verses which address additional names and works such as Father, Word, and Holy Ghost.

If anyone thought that an exegesis of these verses could be sufficiently addressed within a couple of paragraphs, they would be wrong.
The articles which I published are far to lengthy to Post here as a Thread an' so yuh better git yerself a coffe an' a cookie before sitting down to read them.
Later, if you wish, I can publish to the Stolen Spirit Site another series titled "God's Ultimate Plan and Purposes With Man" which should complete the aforementioned articles very nicely.

Anyways, I have published two articles to the Stolen Spirit Site which you might wish to read. One is titled "Jesus, the Name Above All Names" and also "The Works of Jesus".

The Stolen Spirit Site is waiting to distribute a book titled "The Land of Stolen Spirits" this coming November. It's not yet open to the general Public. I don't want to openly type in the Site URL here because Search Engines will discover the Site before its scheduled opening date in mid-October.

Oh, while you're visiting, yuh might as well enjoy the several Flash presentations at the Site too.

Jus' put a dot com at the end of " stolenspirit " and you should reach the Site easily.

When you Click either of the two articles, you will see a notice saying:
"You are not authorized to view this resource"
Simply SignIn using below info and you will be able to read the articles.

Type in DOT COM at the END of --------- stolenspirit ---------

CASE SENSITIVE SIGNIN
- THE LETTER " - G - " BELOW IS A CAPITAL LETTER -

Use Name: Guest
Use Password: Guest1

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Re: Blayne
by proudpapa on 2012/6/4 20:05:39

RE: Blayne wrote What yuh think 'bout that proposal?

OK!
==============================

P

proudpapa Jun 8, 2012

Blayne I will have more time this weekend to look into it ,Thanks