How important is the jot or tittle of Scripture??
Did Jesus Have the same View of the inspiration of scripture as was common in his day??
I ask for this not to be a Westcott and Hort or Orgien disscussion but rather keep it scriptural
"For Verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in now wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Jesus Christ
Actually, Jesus had a better view of Scripture than was common in His day. He loved His Father's word.
Ezekiel 33:31-33
Pilgrim
Amen pilgrim777,
RE Pilgrim777 wrote "Actually, Jesus had a better view of Scripture than was common in His day. He loved His Father's word."
That is very true, But not well recognized today, there is a Used Christian book store in a City about 2 hours from my house every time I go there, I buy up all there books that I can afford on inspiration of scriptures to see what the different opinions are, I do not think that I have found one that matches exactly on how Jesus viewed the scriptures of His day. Probably the best book that I have found is by eta linnemann an ex student of Rudolf Bultmann.
Many of the books that I read say that Jesus just excepted the common belief of scripture that was held of his day. But I find the Bible says something completely different.
Rev 19:13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:
and His name is called The Word of God.
Amen Pilgrim and Annie! Jesus's view of the scriptures was different in John 5 v 38- 39 Jesus said to the Pharisees "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life."
Jesus is The Word of God. That is why we need to Spirit led and filled when we read the Word otherwise we will interpret it the wrong way if we attempt to do so without the Holy Spirit!
Again I am reminded 2 Cor 3 v 6 for" the letter killeth but the Spirit gives life". Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit therefore His view or take on scriptures was different to what was the norm. Most of the time after teaching men responded by saying His sayings are hard!
Blessings in Christ Jesus
Did Jesus Have the same View of the inspiration of scripture as was common in his day??
Sorry to have given such a short answer earlier. I've been proof reading someone's transcription and making the needed corrections and figured you'd know what was meant by that one verse - but felt as I went offline for the day, that it wasn't enough.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew Him not.
Psa 33:6 By the Word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
"GOD With us" - "The Word made flesh".
He spoke the entire Old Testament because He was and is The Word of GOD, so He was GOD's Word while in the flesh as well. He spoke The Words of GOD while in the flesh. He knew the Old Testament because He was [is] The Word of GOD and is now "and His Name is called The Word of GOD" and when He returns. He didn't and doesn't cease being Who He was from Eternity past. He always spoke The Word of GOD while in the flesh and knew all that was spoken by Himself before He came in the flesh, so what could His "view" be of His Own Words?
Did He ever cease being GOD? Or The Word of GOD, Himself?
How does GOD "view the inspiration of" His Own Word - looking at the verses above?
Blessings!
Hi! ProudPapa
How important is the jot 'er title of Scripture?
Matt 5:18 and Luke 21:33 amply confirm the importance of every jot/title of Scripture. So, I'll leave well enough alone with that question.
But your additional question is a very intriguing and searching one. It deserves an answering. To paraphrase it: "How did Jesus view the inspiration of Scripture?".
For instance, compare verses 1Chron 21:14 with 2Sam 24:1. There is an apparent contraction between them. One states that it was God who commanded David to number the people of Israel while the other says it was Satan.
Look at the story of Abraham.
Some people would have us believe that our God is a god of multiple faces; a schizophrenic god, (if you will).
They correctly say that God placed in every man Creation Laws and a conscience to help him follow after them. Obviously, one of those Creation Laws was that murder was something exceedingly prohibited.
But now we have these same people claiming that God tempted Abraham to violate the very Creation Laws and conscience He had gifted him when He supposedly commanded Abraham to murder Issac.
Not only that, somehow they manage to square the contrariety against the Scripture saying: "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man", (James 1:13).
But then again they always have the fall-back position that these are mysteries and secrets reserved to God Himself. Our is merely the task of closing our eyes and walking into the unknown.
The Old Covenant had people testifying: "The secret things belong to the LORD our God". But we who live and have our being in the New Covenant, do not testify as this.
Those who love Jesus and serve Him faithfully have the blessed privilege of knowing that God “revealeth his secrets to his servants.” Jesus said that He would make Himself known to us as He would not unto the world.
Another thing worth asking too is what exactly do the terms "inspired" / "inspiration" mean? There are a lot of Christians who mistakenly think that the writers of the Bible experienced a trance of some sort and etched their narratives through extra-sensory automatic writing 'er something equivalent.
Some might be quick to answer saying, "The Lord works in mysterious ways". But my answer to them is the Scripture saying: "The Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God" and God's people have a share in this.
The Word of God is a creative force. It moves and echoes from out of eternity already passed and accomplishes in eternity now. It begins as a thought (inspiration) and when someone takes possession of it for himself, it immediately attaches to his inner-man and begins to create substance in and through that person.
So, how did Jesus regard the Scriptures? (and we should follow His example).
That can only be answered if you know exactly what the Word of God is ... it's origin and work.
It's jus' too long a story to tell here.
I would first have to empty people's heads and only then begin to re-fill them with new restorative thinking concerning the Word. God treats everyone the same; He remains entirely impartial about his people. It's not as if he loves you or me differently as individuals. So, I have every expectation that God will reveal Himself and accomplish His Word in everyone collectively and as individuals too.
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nature of scriptures
by proudpapa on 2012/6/5 17:08:00
How important is the jot or tittle of Scripture??
Did Jesus Have the same View of the inspiration of scripture as was common in his day??
I ask for this not to be a Westcott and Hort or Orgien disscussion but rather keep it scriptural
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God's will is God's Word and everything we need to know about how Jesus loved His Father's word more than His very own life we can find in the Scriptures.
Mark 14:36 - And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee, take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
The love for God's word is demonstrated when one's own comfort is at risk.
"Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O Lord, thou knowest. I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation." Psalm 40:6-9
Only one who loves and values every jot and tittle of God's words can speak these verses with conviction.
Pilgrim
Great Replies everyone, I have to go to work now and not much time to write, but I have to say a word about contridictions they used to scare me and at one point almost caused me to give up the faith and probably would have If God would have let go of me.
I have found now that I love contridictions they throw of the wise of the World into unbelief but for someone as ignorant as me they are a means by which I can hear God. Expecialy between the accounts in kings and chronicals there are so many contridictions it almost seems unreal, But I have found When I read them and at first they almost always seem impossable, My heart will begain to beat fast I think this is a contridiction, I try to reason it out any way that I can no answer comes. So many times I have found that When I just descide to believe it anyhow despite the seeming contridiction and erase my thinking often times an answer comes and often times It sheds great light on the scripture and tells another story in which great scholers are blinded to because of unbelief. I can not begain to tell what a faith builder that doing this becomes.
We must remeber the Carnal, rational,natural (sarx) mind is enmity with God.
God is not bound by our natural laws and understandings.
Hi! ProudPapa
Actually, I think some readers might misinterpret what I was trying to say.
I certainly don't believe that there are "contradictions" in the Bible. Absolutely not!
There are only seeming-to-be contradictions; things which might appear at first glance to be contradictory for some people; especially for those Christians just beginning their spiritual journey.
Keep Smiling!
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great replies
by proudpapa on 2012/6/7 6:32:49
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Blayne wrote "Hi! ProudPapa
Actually, I think some readers might misinterpret what I was trying to say.
I certainly don't believe that there are "contradictions" in the Bible. Absolutely not!
There are only seeming-to-be contradictions; things which might appear at first glance to be contradictory for some people; especially for those Christians just beginning their spiritual journey.
Keep Smiling!"
Blayne, I knew you had a solid view of inspiration, It is obvious since you are not just another theolgy puppet or walking commentary.
What I wrote about contridictions was not in response to your post.
I always look forward to what you post.
Great points
RE: lindi1208 wrote" Amen Pilgrim and Annie! Jesus's view of the scriptures was different in John 5 v 38- 39 Jesus said to the Pharisees "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.""
Great verse, I have had some use this verse though to try to undermine scriptures authority and just say that believing in Jesus is all that matters. I find it interesting what the verses right after say:
John 5 v 38-47
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
(from this verse you would think they believed scripture but lets read on)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
(Jesus did not care what Orthodoxy taught in his day, He was not afraid to be labled a Heretic)
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
(this was an important verse, are we worried about reading the scripture in the box of orthodoxy!! afraid to be labeled a heretic!)
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.( by this you would think that they really believed the scripture the old testament,but lets read on)
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
(He now tells them that even though they claimed that they believed in Moses (old testament scripture) that they realy did not,they prided themselves in there view of inspiration, But they did not listen to it personally, they always had there tradition there theolgy there doctrines there commentaries there talmud that explained away all the passages.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
(this last verse is very powerful meditate apon it)
RE: indi1208 wrote "Again I am reminded 2 Cor 3 v 6 for" the letter killeth but the Spirit gives life". Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit therefore His view or take on scriptures was different to what was the norm. Most of the time after teaching men responded by saying His sayings are hard!"
GREAT POINT. BLESSINGS!!!
Was the Originals Of the Book of Moses available in Jesus Day , Or just copys of copys ??
How many Years from Moses to Jesus Day??
How Did Jesus go about to prove the Resurrection of the Dead to the sadducees???
Lets slay the Wicked Head of Historical Criticism!!!
Inerrancy
Quote from what you should know about inerrancy by Charles C. Ryrie p.58
/If we find that He(Jesus) only used or taught in a general way about the Bible,then we may conclude that He believed in its reliability generally. If on the other hand,we find that He relied on the minutia of the Bible as accurate,then we must conclude that He believed it to be inerrant down to its details./
So what think ye, Did Jesus use the Bible Generally or trust in its minutia details???
Hi! ProudPapa
Maybe the answer to your question can be found within yet another question:
Did the writers of the Scriptures compose their narratives in something near a trance-like state of direct divine inspiration or did the writers compose them using the insights and knowledge which they had obtained for themselves at the time?
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nature of scriptures\t |
How important is the jot or tittle of Scripture??
Did Jesus Have the same View of the inspiration of scripture as was common in his day??
I ask for this not to be a Westcott and Hort or Orgien disscussion but rather keep it scriptural
======================
HI, Blayne thank you for the thought provoking question.
Having not meditated deeply on this thought I will throw out What first comes to mind.
RE: Blayne asked "Did the writers of the Scriptures compose their narratives in something near a trance-like state of direct divine inspiration or did the writers compose them using the insights and knowledge which they had obtained for themselves at the time?"
We can not say that the Bible is totaly writen from a means of mechanical dictation, in that we can see Each of the Writers own personalitys whithin there writings, Such as a different personality from Paul and Peter or from Paul to John. Yet It all is of the same Spirit and the exact thoughts and even words as what God Him self Inspired.
Some verses that come to mind are 1 Peter ch1:10-12
/10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:/
So Peter seems to Be speaking of the old testament prophets here, He says they prophesied of the grace that should come and than had to go back and enquired and searched diligently through there own writings to try to understand the grace that should come. They wrote of things that where deeper than there own understanding could comprehend when they wrote them.
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
These verses are deep, They are speaking of the Spirit of Christ which was in them Having them write of things that there comprehension was unable to fully grasp, It reminds me of First John where he says we need no one to teach us because of the anointing in us knows all things,yet our minds seem to not understand all things yet our spirit that is anointed does?? Deep stuff.. very unorthodox.
//12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.//
So this seems to be saying that they never fully grasped there own writings because it was not revealed for them but for us.
It goes on to say that even the angels desire to look into these writings, indicating that they do not even have full comprehension of the depths of these writings.
God never departs the waters untill we against all hope, first step in and have full confidence that he will.
Gods version
psalms 91 v11 v12
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, (to keep thee in all thy ways).
12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone
The Devils Version
11 He shall give his angels charge concerning thee:(???)
12 and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Hi! ProudPapa
As always, your comments are exceedingly well thought out and very much scriptural. That's what I so appreciate when reading your Posts.
Yes, it's indeed just as you stated it: "They wrote of things that were deeper than their own understanding could comprehend when they wrote them."
This is how/why, for instance, that the apparent contradiction occurred between 1Chron 21:14 and 2Sam 24:1 (which I mentioned previously in this Thread). The writer of Chronicles had more insight concerning the Kingdom of Heaven (invisible world) than the writer of Samuel and therefore correctly identified the instigator.
We can detect this anomaly throughout the Old Testament because, as the scriptures testify and which you yourself reiterated, "So this seems to be saying that they never fully grasped there own writings because it was not revealed for them but for us."
Now I will give you yet another question to ponder which is somewhat relational to this same subject:
Was it God who killed Ananias and Sapphira? (Acts 5:1-11).
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by proudpapa on 2012/6/9 20:53:07
HI, Blayne thank you for the thought provoking question.
Having not meditated deeply on this thought I will throw out What first comes to mind.
RE: Blayne asked "Did the writers of the Scriptures compose their narratives in something near a trance-like state of direct divine inspiration or did the writers compose them using the insights and knowledge which they had obtained for themselves at the time?"
We can not say that the Bible is totaly writen from a means of mechanical dictation, in that we can see Each of the Writers own personalitys whithin there writings, Such as a different personality from Paul and Peter or from Paul to John. Yet It all is of the same Spirit and the exact thoughts and even words as what God Him self Inspired.
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Hi Blayne, I always look forward to what you or Pilgrim777 have posted!
RE: Blayne wrote //This is how/why, for instance, that the apparent contradiction occurred between 1Chron 21:14 and 2Sam 24:1 (which I mentioned previously in this Thread). The writer of Chronicles had more insight concerning the Kingdom of Heaven (invisible world) than the writer of Samuel and therefore correctly identified the instigator.//
You make a good point here, I think it is needful also to keep in mind That these things where inspired exactly how God wants us to recieve them. There Are Many very intellectual and scholarly Men that Loose there faith over versus like this, Because they do not understand the nature of Faith nor the nature of Scriptures,they do not relize that God has delibertly willed these seeming Contridictions to throw off the faith of the high minded and wise of this world. But for those of faith it is no contridiction at all,It actuly openes more awarness to the ways in which God works, By faith it openes up another deminsion of scripture that the sceptic is locked out of. We know from the Book of Job how God is in control and what tools he so uses to accomplish his will.
Both of the writers are correct.
Are you sure that it was the writer of Chronicles that had more insight??
RE: Blayne wrote /Now I will give you yet another question to ponder which is somewhat relational to this same subject:
Was it God who killed Ananias and Sapphira? (Acts 5:1-11)./
I am still pondering, the first thought off of the top of my head was yes,but when I read it, It did not clearly say that, It seems that when Peter spoke to them, That his Words where so anointed that They cut them so deep inward that the fear or panic killed them. Umm?? It seems as though it depends on what level we are speaking??
I have to admitt I am stumped on where you are going with this,But looking foward to it
I have to ask again for you Blayne or anyone else reading this.
How did Jesus go about to prove the Resurrection of the Dead to the sadducees???
they were astonished at his doctrine!!
.
The writer of Chronicles had more insight concerning the Kingdom of Heaven (invisible world) than the writer of Samuel and therefore correctly identified the instigator.
Sorry bro, this doesn't add up. Reasoning of this sort flaws Scripture, thus making what's said a lie. Saying that says that the writer of Samuel stated something about God as fact that actually was not accurate, and in doing so undermines the integrity of the entire book. What if every other time something that was declared as God's doing in second Samuel, it was in fact the devil, and the author didn't have the right insight to discern between the two? This is a dangerous road to go down. Can you see why reasoning in this fashion whilst claiming 100% inerrancy of Scripture can't be reconciled mutually?
What was being communicated was something much deeper here. The truth is, that both Satan AND God were the perpetrators. As shown in other instances throughout Scripture, Satan is still subject to God even though he is His enemy. The Lord used Satan to accomplish His will. He's done it multiple times throughout Scripture. Both accounts are 100% accurate, and reveal something about the other towards the larger picture.
This discussion is locked.
