proudpapa
Jun 12, 2012
What are your thoughts is Romans 7 the normal Christian Life??
Or is Romans 7 a sinner under the Law who can not get victory over his sin??
What are your thoughts is Romans 7 the normal Christian Life??
Or is Romans 7 a sinner under the Law who can not get victory over his sin??
If you KNOW The man Paul :)
~ it's Definitely the latter!
Romans 7 is about the life that is lived under the bondage of the law, and shows how the law is ultimately weak, and cannot serve as a source of victorious living in the Christian life. Rather, it is only through Spirit filled living that we can live a life that is pleasing to God. Those who live by the power of their own will to keep the commandments of God will enter into a vicious cycle of sin from which they cannot escape. But only through the life giving power of the Holy Spirit can we hope to live in victory over the power of sin, and the weakness of our flesh.
What Jimmy said.
Before the Spirit of God can work creatively in our hearts He must condemn and slay the "flesh" within us; that is, He must have our full consent to displace our natural self with the Person of Christ. This displacement is carefully explained in Romans 6, 7,and 8. When the seeking Christian has gone through the crucifying experience described in chapters 6 and 7 he enters into the broad, free regions of chapter 8. There self is dethroned and Christ is enthroned forever.
Quote by A. W. Tozer
The reason I chose #2 of proudpapa's OP was because, anyone that is "bound" to the 613 laws means that they are Depending on the 613 to save them and according to Romans and Galatians - Anyone 'bound' to or depending on the 613, are not saved - so thence they are still considered or called "sinners".
Too many are taking these verses that mention the "Law" and re-interpreting it to mean that we are not saved if we believe in "obedience" to Jesus' Words after He saves us - thus Twisting the Scriptures as I've never seen before.
They are calling a Christians' obedience to Jesus' Words - "works righteousness".
Paul was obviously talking about the Jews trying to be saved by the 613 and trying to get the Christians under those...
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Following EverestoSama's good example, I agree with Jimmy and Jesus-is-God posts above.
Romans 7 is not the normal Christian Life but a Christian life in bondage where "self" is stil on the throne. Romans 8 describes a life of freedom where "self" is delt with and where your soul is under the leading of the Spirit. A Normal Chistian life should be a life describe in Romans 8 but very few Christians experience that life. (Sad to say but it is true) God want us to be an overcomer. We must overcome sin, the flesh, and the self life must be laid down and Jesus must be on the throne.
"There self is dethroned and Christ is enthroned forever."
Not quite as Wesley found. In fact it was classed as normal to lose the blessing but then to be much more secure once one is restored. One reason some lost it was due to not witnessing to it.
What are your thoughts is Romans 7 the normal Christian Life??Or is Romans 7 a sinner under the Law who can not get victory over his sin??
By considering only the narrow scope of your question are we perhaps missing the broader aspect being taught in this chapter?
To quote Poul Madsen, "The question of Christian or non-Christian hardly enters into the apostle's line of argument. His problem is the relationship of law and man, whether that man is a Christian or not. A Christian is certainly not under the law, but should he turn back to it instead of remaining totally dependent upon the grace of God in Christ Jesus, then he will find himself just as helpless as a non-Christian."
In Christ,
Ron
Great statement: " A Christian is certainly not under the law, but should he turn back to it instead of remaining totally dependent upon the grace of God in Christ Jesus, then he will find himself just as helpless as a non-Christian."
Saved as by fire but "helpless."
In Christ: Phillip
"There self is dethroned and Christ is enthroned forever."
Never noticed that thanks for pointing it out.
Quote: Romans 7 is about the life that is lived under the bondage of the law, and shows how the law is ultimately weak, and cannot serve as a source of victorious living in the Christian life.
Many seem to know what Romans 7 is about as seen EverestoSama's Jimmy, Jesus-is-God, EverestoSama and Johan2012 posts if I have missed you out please don’t be offended.
Quote Romans 8 but very few Christians experience that life.
The question should be why so many Christian’s not living the Romans 8 life?
"why so many Christian’s not living the Romans 8 life?"
My understanding is that it is due to fear and the fear is due to doubt. If we submit entirely to Christ then we no longer have the ultimate control of our lives and the power to say enough is enough if things get too sticky. Doubts have entered our minds because of the work of the devil but we must make a stand on who we will believe despite the outward circumstances.
Submission involves standing on the edge of the `cliff` and stepping over in the dark. But His arms are there to catch us - always. The devil whispers to us that He might not be there to catch us and who knows what He might expect us to do? What if He sends us to Africa?
For anyone who is in that position today - take no heed of the devil`s lies. The Lord has brought you to the brink for the purpose of catching you and delivering you from your sins. When you are in His arms all things count as blessings.
Brenda
Great Insight everyone, I did not see one Post that I could disagree with, Rather it is speaking of a Person not Saved that is under the Law or rather it is referring to a Galation type of Christian that is bringing there self back under the Law, It is not the Normal Christian Life.
Quote: not the Normal Christian Life
Why is Romans 7 not the normal christian life.
Should not all christians go through the crucifying experience described in chapters 6 and 7.
Hi murrcolr,
Murrcolr, wrote "Should not all christians go through the crucifying experience described in chapters 6 and 7."
Should we spend years Crucifiying ourselves or Believe the fact that we are Crucified??
Edit: Is Sanctification by Works or by Faith ??
Romans 7, is a first person narrative of a past tense event
Quote: Should we spend years Crucifiying ourselves or Believe the fact that we are Crucified??
Scripture tells us there is a struggle in the Christian life after conversion.
The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh and these are contrary the one to the other, so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.” Gal 5:17.
The spiritual problem is clearly set forth with the inward conflict. While the man has “the Spirit” (which would not apply to a sinner) he also has a something antagonistic to the Spirit, called here “the flesh.”
In Gal 5:24 we read, “And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh,” showing that the divine process for that “inward conflict” is not pardon, nor suppression, but crucifixion, which signifies that there is something to die and thus to be destroyed.
When Christ died, the veil was rent. Christ dedicated a new and living way to God through the rent veil of His flesh. Heb 10:19-20
We don’t need to try and crucify the flesh, the veil of the flesh has been rent. However we are exhorted to labor to enter into that rest.
Heb 4:11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
To answer the first part of your question we should labor to enter the rest but we should not try to crucify the flesh in our own strength as the price has been paid.
When “flesh” is mentioned we have to understand that it’s not skin and bones that are the issue for human kind… Jesus pin points the area of problem for us humans “For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies” Matt 15:19 These are the things which defile a man Matt 15:20 which are evil thoughts (malice), thoughts of murder (anger), thoughts of adultery (lust), thoughts of fornications (lust) etc. etc, these things are the works of the flesh.
So to deal with the flesh the spirit must go to the root of the problem, which is the heart of a man, and the heart of man must be cleansed to make it pure and undefiled.
So to answer the second part of your question it’s good you belief that you are crucified with Christ because the first step is “knowing this that our old man is crucified with him” but because you belief that it doesn’t mean that it automatically becomes a reality in your life.
To be crucified with Christ simply means that you heart is pure and that takes a second work of the Holy Spirit.
Hi, Murrcolr
even though I would disagree on some of the minor points,
I thought what you wrote was very well said and to argue over the smaller issues that I could be wrong about would only cause contention and would not be edifing.
RE: murrcolr wrote "To answer the first part of your question we should labor to enter the rest but we should not try to crucify the flesh in our own strength as the price has been paid."
I thought this point was very well said.
"We don’t need to try and crucify the flesh, the veil of the flesh has been rent. However we are exhorted to labor to enter into that rest.To be crucified with Christ simply means that you heart is pure and that takes a second work of the Holy Spirit."
Good post Colin and I would like to add that the second work requires our faith that the work was done and we HAVE been made free from sin on the cross, that our flesh was crucified two thousand years ago, in order for it to be made a reality for us, and if we believe that we must struggle against sin for all of our Christian lives then we will. If we twist the words of scripture then we will get what we expect.
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