end times prophesy

That's an interesting point in light of the pre-millenial vs. post-millenial debate, of which I was just reminded by this part of a blog I read:The third paragraph reveals that what Nick Gier doesn't know about Presbyterian theology could be the basis for a great library, the likes of which the world has never seen. He says, "Of greatest concern, however is the fundamentalist view of the violent end of the world." He says this about me, and Steve Wilkins, even though both of us are postmillennialists, which is the view that the future of the world is going to be characterized by an approaching and inexorable peace. The lion will lie down with the lamb. The spears will be beaten into pruning hooks. Cats and dogs will get along. In the coming millennial glory, philosophy professors will start making sense. Confusing us with the lurid end-of-the-worlders and Armageddoners is like confusing licorice with AltoidsThis is relevant to your question in that it is possible that Revelation isn't foretelling a violent end of the world, but is instead foretelling some very violent events that would take place fairly soon after the writing of the book (in and around 70 A.D., for instance, if it can be shown Revelation could have been written before then).But perhaps it would be better to first discuss the reconciliation with the Micah passage with the pre-millenial interpretation of Revelation, to see how your original question might be answered.

JakeThe last time you asked this question was 2004/1/2 16:32, in the this thread.Are you asking it again because you didn’t like the answer you got the last time? We all know that you don't believe in the Revelation, so what do you hope to prove by asking the same questions?The simple answer is that is has to do with different time periods. Here are two statements, which is 'true'?The light said 'Don't walk'The light said 'Walk'Just stand by the side of one and look and you will see that both statements are true... but not at the same time.

I like that example... I'm gonna borrow that!KrispyHe has had many borrow his little gems, and you know what the most amazing thing is, its all in his head. ;-) p.s. Not that he is in his head mad....I think I'm changing feet. Cheers

Luke 3:14 doesn't seem that , what Jesus called the greatest prophet born had anything to say against the war these soldiers would wage.Just thier ethic and character.

The problem with Ron's response is that the Micah quote states that swords will be beat into ploughshares and that men will no longer train for war. Well, outside of Rawanda nobody wages war with swords anymore. The Micah prophesy has to be allegorical of a future time and it is clearly in conflict with Revelations' prophesy of war that destroys nearly everything and then earth is restored for a thousand years by Christ.BubFirst of all contrary to popular belief people in rwanda and burundi do have machine guns and so forth. Machetes (different from swords) are also common in many other parts of the world. Micah's prophecy falls AFTER the tribulation described in the revelation. If you read revelation itself you will see that Christ Himself says that these things must come to pass before I come. AFTER He returns then there will be 1000 yrs of peace. Now the talk of the beating of swords into ploughshares may also mean the refocusing of resources (brainpower, manpower, money etc) from making war to other things that benefit everyone.The devil is clearly behind this. In order to prepare the world for the second coming of Christ, many, many people have to be killed. (according to their beliefs.) They will willingly do this and claim they act out of Christian concern and because they are preparing the way for the Rapture and second coming.by that are you saying that the devil is behind what is written in Revelation? if so that would be blaspheming the Word of God. Revelation itself comes with a warning, if anyone takes away from it's meaning, he will lose the same portion from his heavenly reward, if someone adds to it then that same portion is added to his punishment. be very careful what you say about this book. In fact I urge you to leave it alone completely and let God deal with you as He needs to so that you may be able to understand this book.Christians should be imitating Jesus' Love and pacifism and should not support killing of any kind. Doing so is a perversion of His teachings and life.I don't think anyone supports or likes the idea of a large portion of the earth's population in terms of people, animals, plant life etc being wiped out. but this is what God has willed because we have sinned against Him. I mean can you go to heaven and say to GOd " look God you have this whole second coming thing all wrong, there is no need for all the killing etc, here's how I suggest you handle it."? I don't know maybe you think so, you can believe that if you want to, but as with anything, there are certain consequences that come with that. The true punishment for this is that we all go to hell but God loved us so much that He made a way for us to be saved. We should certainly emulate Christ's example but remember Christ suffered and died a horrible death. do you honestly think Bubbaguy that even if God didn't spare His only begotten, His #1, His sinless sun son from such a brutal death that yu and I can dodge that bullet? again you can believe that if you want to, if you're right then it's all good but if not I hope that if you do you'll be ready for whatever consequences come with it.

Hi JakeThis post is just a logical consequence of your chaotic approach to the scripture. But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. (Mic 4:1-4 KJV)I agree with you that this is allegorical and a symbol of worldwide peace. But then so is this And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Rev 21:1-4 KJV)The scripture is never going to be opened to you while you seek to prove its inconsistency. The battles are before Rev 20. If you read the end of the story you will find a new heaven and a new earth and no more battles. It is as though you were reading a history of the second world war and objecting because at one point it says it started and at another point it ended.But you deny the authenticity of the scripture and it remains a closed book to you. BTW the title of the book is the Revelation (not Revelations). If you read the introduction you will discover that it is the revelation of Jesus Christ that His Father gave to Him.

The whole terrorism thing gets pretty messy after a while. Although this does beg a question. These people beleive so fiercly in their hearts that what they are doing is right, even to the point of dying for their cause, misguided as it is. Now for those of us who are Christians, should we not have a similar kinda fire? should we not be willing to make that same sacrifice, to die like Christ did. Do we believe in HIm fiercly enough that we would die for Him?

bubbaguy wrote:Our current President and many of his cohorts believe the Revelations prophesies and believe that they must build powerful conquering militaries so as to be prepared. Theirs is a self-fulfilling interpretation. The more they build a strong military and seek new nuclear weapons, the more every other country will do so as well. Round and round we go.With the whole Micah prophecy, firstly, consider the circumstances that lead up to the swords being beaten into plowshare, and the spears into pruning hooks. A couple of considerations couple be the whole statement of "national pride". Not only do people sin, but also families and nations. Consider the term, "national interests" that we frequently hear on the news.The problem is, we all have an opinion. But it won't resolve until Israel is restored in it's messianic fulfillment. It's not enough for them to be geographically located in Canaan, in the form of Jacob (surplanter), but they need to have their time of "wrestliting with God" that culminates in their restoration as Israel (prince of God). A faithful prince looks after the intrests of the Kingdom (ie, the King's interests), before his own (ie, national interests).The final fulfillment of Israels restoration, will result in a Theocratic (ie, God ruled)Kingdom, which God will will rule the earth through. The present Israel (Jacob) is a democratic (ie, people ruled) government. As long as man is at the helm, God won't rule. As long as man is at the helm, there will be a contest of power. After all, we all have our own interests to look after, and the sum of these "personal interests" add up to be the "national interests", that all these wars are justified by.Until God's "Kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven", we are destined to experience wars. Sorry to have to break this to you, but there is no other alternative. If you want it to be another way, then ask the Jehovah's Witnesses, they'll give you a much happier story.

IRONMAN wrote:The whole terrorism thing gets pretty messy after a while. Although this does beg a question. These people beleive so fiercly in their hearts that what they are doing is right, even to the point of dying for their cause, misguided as it is. Now for those of us who are Christians, should we not have a similar kinda fire? should we not be willing to make that same sacrifice, to die like Christ did. Do we believe in HIm fiercly enough that we would die for Him? For an interesting overall take on the shame we should feel, when we look at Islam terrorism, check out Katz' message on the 911 Tradgedy.