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Why are Reformed/Calvinist Preachers.......

F
FaithALONE Jun 24, 2012

such as John Piper (he was a featured sermon alittle while ago), John MacArthur, Paul Washer, etc highlighted on Sermon Index - when their biblical beliefs are not held by this site?

Why do men like Spurgeon, Whitefield, Edwards, etc have their writings on this site?

I am curious because those men (alledgedly) believe in the predestination where God only saves certain men, they believe that those God saves will never be lost to hell (eternal security of the believer).

Spurgeon, Whitefield, Edwards, etc believed it was heresy to say that one could "lose their salvation" because they fell into sin, or however you wish to put that.

I am asking this question because I have thought this for years concerning Sermon Index but never asked. Clarity on this would be appreciated.

H
hulsey Jun 24, 2012

All these men you have mentioned also have a history of fellowship with men who are not calvinist and received them as brothers.

sermonindex Jun 24, 2012

Sermon Index is a resource to promote Christ-centered revival at the personal and corporate level. It us not a place to advocate a particular doctrinal position. Thus is why CalArm post or threads are discouraged by the moderators. Such threads are divisive and do not edify.

Regrettably I have posted such threads and repent. I believe the upcoming SI conference will shift our minds and hearts over to what is really important. Namely JESUS.

Caps are emphasis only.

Bearmaster.

K
KingJimmy Jun 24, 2012

Reformed though they were, God mightily used these men, and continues to use them. If Jesus Christ can see fit to live in the hearts of these men, then I gladly accept them. Their vision was ultimately the same as the purpose of this site, to glorify God and cause dead men to live.

If anybody thinks this site exists to promote only the messages of those who are of a Wesleyan/Pentecostal background, then they've not understood the purpose of this site.

L
learn Jun 24, 2012

Because each of these people have good sermons and good lives that can help Christians (irregardless of denomination). The different biblical beliefs and individuals may help/bring comfort to some who may not find comfort in other beliefs/people. God uses different people with different thinking and flaws to reach different types of people to bring them to Christ and keep them in the faith.

To limit the site to preachers whose beliefs are held only on this site, is basically to tell God that I'm doing it my way.

sermonindex Jun 24, 2012


All these men you have mentioned also have a history of fellowship with men who are not calvinist and received them as brothers.

Amen that would be my answer. And also the fact that these great men of God did not ever become great because they held to doctrines of calvinism but rather because they knew God in a very intimate powerful way and have obeyed the Lord in their lives in a radical way.

The very person of Christ was their motivation and love.

E
enid Jun 25, 2012


"And you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.", 1 Cor 3:23.

A
Anastasis Jun 25, 2012

Amen that would be my answer. And also the fact that these great men of God did not ever become great because they held to doctrines of calvinism but rather because they knew God in a very intimate powerful way and have obeyed the Lord in their lives in a radical way.

The very person of Christ was their motivation and love.

To that I say amen!

R
rbanks Jun 26, 2012

It just goes to show you that God is greater in goodness toward man’s ignorance of not knowing Him and His ways. God can bring people to a saving knowledge and a relationship with Him and even call him and use him in spite of man’s ignorance of the deep things of God. We all only know in part but he puts it all together for His glory.

sermonindex Jun 26, 2012

It just goes to show you that God is greater in goodness toward man’s ignorance of not knowing Him and His ways. God can bring people to a saving knowledge and a relationship with Him and even call him and use him in spite of man’s ignorance of the deep things of God. We all only know in part but he puts it all together for His glory.

Wow... there is a lot of spiritual arrogance on this thread.

Krispy

sermonindex Jun 29, 2012

I'm guessing these fella's had a pretty firm grasp on the deep things.

Man when it comes to this topic you gotta give the enemy his props. He played this one perfectly.

A debate between the head and the heart is a no win.

Marc mc

sermonindex Jun 29, 2012

And why do these threads keep cropping up when the administrator has asked we not initiate these discussions.? Are there not other things in God's kingdom we can speak on to build up the body of Christ?

Breaux Bear.

sermonindex Jun 29, 2012

This debate has raged for years because it is so vital.

The more friction and fire the more relevance. The enemy knows the key this has on the churches position in the earth very well. It's an historical fact.

Marc mc

sermonindex Jun 29, 2012

And brother no one has won this debate. Godly brethren on both sides have debated CalArm and it causes division and does not build up. You are right. The devil knows this. And he will divide the church over it.

I see in places like China and Iran, believers are more concerned about following Jesus and reaching the lost. They suffer persecution for it. They do not ,as we, have the luxury of debating doctrine. They simply live it. When will the church in America wake up and realize there are far more serious things to be concerned about then who is right in the CalArm debate?

Bearmaster.

G
ginnyrose Jun 29, 2012

QUOTYE:
______________________________________________________________

Wow... there is a lot of spiritual arrogance on this thread.
______________________________________________________________

Aw, Krispy, looks like you have not had your morning coffee yet...

ginnyrose

sermonindex Jun 29, 2012

by bearmaster on 2012/6/29 6:06:24

And brother no one has won this debate. Godly brethren on both sides have debated CalArm and it causes division and does not build up. You are right. The devil knows this. And he will divide the church over it.

I see in places like China and Iran, believers are more concerned about following Jesus and reaching the lost. They suffer persecution for it. They do not ,as we, have the luxury of debating doctrine. They simply live it. When will the church in America wake up and realize there are far more serious things to be concerned about then who is right in the CalArm debate?

Bearmaster.


Here's a thought, forget the debate for a second and consider this.

If the reform position is correct then it's totally correct. If its wrong then it's the greatest heresy in church history. In other words, this debate is not an apples or oranges debate. It's apples or poison.

In any other field or area a point of difference as large as the CalArm cannot exist. The scale this difference involves is total, if one is right the other is absolutely wrong and if wrong then most of what follows is wrong as well.

I'm not debating this issue, I am just trying to point out that it must be the intention of every follower of Christ to study to show themselves approved. That's why I said its a vital area and the simple fact that these positions are so different and yet still able to cause so much devision for so many years is proof that one is right and one is wrong. One must be light and the other darkness.


Marc mc

D
David01-72 Jun 29, 2012

Here we go again, God help us! These cav/arm debates only brings the fruit of hate toward each other. I say,anything to do with these debate shall be locked.

J
jimur Jun 29, 2012

Being new to this forum but having read many posts I find often a vague personal distinction of topics considered acceptable discussion and that which is not. Forgive me if I offend or cross that line.

I have yet to be given light in understanding how one might engage study of holy scripture in avoidance of theological idea and thesis. Neither do I fully understand allowance of some of these ideas, yet not others. These men were used of God and true blessings to man. Had Godly men of history been disallowed to present these ideas, would it not constitute a form of suppression of those who seek a deeper knowledge of biblical truth and understanding which to offer further glory to the Father by those who come after? Do we glorify our Lord with inspired scripture alone and seek not a deeper understanding? Both Cal/Arm give glory though different perspectives.

I understand context of verse and subject, but can we not apply

Malachi 2:2 (KJV)
2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.

and couple with

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Surely we can not disregard

Romans 10:14 (KJV)
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Again, were not these men teachers, preachers, and blessings? If so are their ideas to be banned and censored? Are my thoughts and references such as a gross misapplication of scripture and biblical teaching?
I am but a sinner saved by grace with no title preceding my name nor credentials following. Yet I continue to seek all possible understanding of my creator. How might I divide without I hear?
I suggest the fault is not in these thesis, but in the seemingly inseparable emotions of a weakened [unnatural state] of man.

Lord, our heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting, grant us an open mind, ready to receive the truth and act upon it. Show us that others have a right to their own opinions and help us to see their point of view. Give us each the grace to know we may be mistaken. Help us Lord to not shut our mind to facts simply because we do not like them. Grant we give the same weight to those who may be unpleasant as to those who are pleasant because they are in our favor. Open the eyes and understanding of our soul that we may rightly divide truth for Jesus' sake. Amen

sermonindex Jun 29, 2012

Well I guess some can shut themselves off and hate but that's not me.

I'm new around here and probably will spend little time at this. But I'm curious if any who have debated this subject at length have considered what's at stake for themselves and have ever used logic to consider that our Father God would never have left His children with such a complex question unanswered.

Surely our Father who speaks so often about avoiding divisions is not the author of this one. And if it is such a point of contention in the Body for so many years then it clearly must be an issue of good and evil. It should therefore be one of the highest priorities of believers to find out for themselves the Will of God in this area.

I guess what I'm saying is this is a black or white issue and that's why it can't be settled in debate. The repercussions are IME total

Marc mc

sermonindex Jun 29, 2012

"I have yet to be given light in understanding how one might engage study of holy scripture in avoidance of theological idea and thesis. Neither do I fully understand allowance of some of these ideas, yet not others.. Jimur"

I just posted this on another thread, but it seems taylor made for your question.
...................................................
The nature of Dogma..the Cal/Arm war.
....................................................
"Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or a particular group or organization.

" It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practitioners or believers."

Although it generally refers to religious beliefs that are accepted without evidence, they can refer to acceptable opinions of philosophers or philosophical schools, public decrees, or issued decisions of political authorities."...wiki

The Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom, ruled by a Spirit; the Holy Spirit Jahweh. "God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him MUST worship Him in Spirit and in Truth."

"The term "dogmatic theology" became more widely used following the Protestant Reformation and was used to designate the articles of faith that the Church had officially formulated."...wiki

" These creeds or dogmas that came out of the church councils were considered to be authoritative and binding on all Christians because the church officially affirmed them.

One of the purposes of dogmatic theology is so that a church body can formulate and communicate the doctrine that is considered essential to Christianity and which if denied would constitute heresy."...wiki

So, here we see that the individual faith was and is transferred to the organization, and somewhere along the line, heavy personalities developed their own theology, and proclaimed it as Divine, and then, anyone who defied this would be constituted a Heretic.

This is so completely ingrained within the religious psyche of it's followers, often it cannot be challenged, it has become AS the Spirit and the Word of God. It exists today, in many agendas.


Wiki states:
"Ever since Arminius and his followers revolted against Calvinism in the early 17th century, Protestant soteriology has been largely divided between Calvinism and Arminianism.
The extreme of Calvinism is hyper-Calvinism, which insists that signs of election must be sought before evangelization of the unregenerate takes place and that the eternally damned have no obligation to repent and believe,

... and on the extreme of Arminianism is Pelagianism, which rejects the doctrine of original sin on grounds of moral accountability; but the overwhelming majority of Protestant, evangelical pastors and theologians hold to one of these two systems or somewhere in between."wiki

And, we hate everything that opposes our brand for after all, "IS IT NOT HERESY?"

We must hate and reject everything that opposes our dogma, for after all, is it not Heresy? Thus, the rigid confines of our religious icons and TEACHERS BECOMES, AND MUST BECOME OURS! and many our most do not even understand why they feel the way they do....THREATENED....as if their entire faith is being attacked, and must be defended at all costs.

The Word of God in itself is no longer relevant, but only if "interpreted" properly. The intertwining of the thinking into this dogma now becomes ones faith; the tentacles of a systematic theology by a mind heavier than yours defines how you must think, or die trying in it's extremes........

"John Calvin said the same thing of Michael Servetus, a man that dared to disagree with his cherished doctrinal formulations. Seven years before Calvin actually saw to it that Servetus was put to death, he said: “If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight.”

Calvin made good on his threat. Why? Because he had no answers to Michael Servetus’ correction of his false doctrines, and he could not bear to be proven wrong and to lose face. The temporal power he had taken to himself was predicated on being right. He was a very proud man; God resists the proud.
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falseteachers/johncalvin.htm

Both are simply the ideas of brilliant leaders, as prone to error and sin as you or me. When we adapt them, in limitations as only the Word and solely the word, we then must hate everything we perceive that opposes it. The Pharisees hated Jesus as they weaved their own Right and agreed in the own Justice; "THE TRADITIONS".

CAL/ARM is no more than that; each contains slivers of truth, but without the Spirit endorsing the Word with Love and Power, the letter becomes death.


...Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”...
So, they murdered Him.

I'm not speaking for the moderators, but I have an idea that this is why there are limits in addressing this issue; the most dogmatic, and hateful war existing in Protestantism yet today.

This discussion is locked.

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