I thought I'd start the morning off with a grin and a quote from a new book out called, "Killing Calvinism."
Quote: We cross a line when we are more focused on mastering theology than on being mastered by Christ.
http://cruciformpress.com/our-books/killing-calvinism/
God bless us all!!
Lisa
(off to work!)
I agree with that... but thats certainly not a problem that is only unique to Calvinists.
Krispy
I am in an agreeable mood. I agree with you both.
I believe someone has said Jesus is the truth. The New Testament is the truth about the truth. Theology is the truth about the truth about the truth. Sermons are the truth about the truth about the truth.about the truth. Best thing get back to Jesus who is the truth.
Breaux Bear.
Hi Brother Bear. You know ... I think that now that Brother Wurmbrand is before The Throne and in the Presence of "The Word of GOD" and seeing His GLORY, that if he had the chance to come back and change some of the things that he had written while on earth, that he would, and that one thought that you quoted would be the main one that he'd change.
He wrote many books. Some no longer available through VoM.
Books like "Alone with God" [sermons from solitary confinement] and "100 Prison Meditations" and others that are him rambling while suffering things that he admits were when he was out of his normal mind --- but I value all of his books - but they're not "sound" - as he'd say himself.
The Word of God is "spirit", it's "alive", it's powerful as Jesus used The Word against Satan during the temptation.
It's more than just "the truth about the truth".
Jesus 'is' The Word of GOD - so His Word is GOD'S WORD and GOD's Word has the power to accomplish whatever He desires and doesn't go out void. There is Power in His Word and of course you know the many verses that go along with this one - Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Saying that The Word of GOD is just the truth about the truth does not come out as it should to those that don't know the Power of His Word and the fact that it's Living.
It makes The Word sound like 'just' a book.
I'm sure if Richard Wurmbrand could rephrase what he wrote, that he would, now.
Love in Him.
Best thing get back to Jesus who is the truth
....which would be "theology".
This is a dog chasing it's tail thread.
Krispy
Reading a little of the “sample” and the “contents page” I believe that he is right on in the message he is trying to get out to his “Calvinist” friends. I read the first part of how he became a “Calvinist”; it was like he was born again into being a Calvinist. I just don’t find it in scripture that we are to be a “Calvinist” or any other “ism”. He said about how the younger people were becoming “Calvinist” and how they acted. He also said that how he was born again, a Calvinist, without any cooperation with God. This really bothers me because there are multitudes of scripture that shows we have a responsibility toward God in our conversion experience. I am praying that more young people will be baptized in the Holy Spirit and follow Jesus, His Word and Spirit instead of wanting or desiring to be a “Calvinist”. Jesus is the name above every name not Calvin.
So Krispy you would say we need to get back to the truth about the truth about the truth. That is theology. Why not just get back to Jesus who is simply the truth. You know John 14:6.
Bearmaster.
Folks may I point out the early apostles had no commentaries or systematic theologies. They had no complete Bible. They simply had Jesus who is the truth. Then they had Jesus in the person of the Holy Spirit.
I might add the Holy Spirit is what sustains the persecuted church where Bibles are scarce.
Bearmaster.
Jesus-is-GOD said:
The Word of God is "spirit", it's "alive", it's powerful as Jesus used The Word against Satan during the temptation.
It's more than just "the truth about the truth".
Jesus 'is' The Word of GOD - so His Word is GOD'S WORD and GOD's Word has the power to accomplish whatever He desires and doesn't go out void. There is Power in His Word and of course you know the many verses that go along with this one - Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.Saying that The Word of GOD is just the truth about the truth does not come out as it should to those that don't know the Power of His Word and the fact that it's Living.
It makes The Word sound like 'just' a book.
I agree completely.
Just in case, you did what I did and misinterpreted the title, here’s a few more words which brings clarity to the focus of the book:
Killing Calvinism: How to Destroy a Perfectly Good Theology from the Inside
by Greg Dutcher........ .
In other words, the book apparently addresses the unfortunate threats to a good theology. It is not suggesting that we should attempt to kill Calvinism!
but thats certainly not a problem that is only unique to Calvinists.
(any further comments, Lysa?)We cross a line when we are more focused on mastering theology than on being mastered by Christ.
John Piper speak well of the book. He makes me eager to read it - because it seems to be a thoughtful and honest confession. (Am I right, Lysa?)
Quote:
“When this kind of critique and warning come from within a movement, it is a sign of health.” John Piper
I posted this thread in good fun because I loved the quote and agree with Krispy’s, “that’s certainly not a problem that is only unique to Calvinists.”
I do not believe 100% in Calvinism nor do I believe in a 100% in any theology that has a “man’s” name attached to it; they all are based on scripture and have a measure of truth in them, as well as a measure of UNtruth in them.
My personal belief is that we should just quit arguing about what we believe and LIVE what we believe. The truth is that our works will show forth exactly what we believe; whether it’s Christ’s doctrine or man’s doctrine. But that’s just my two cents, my friends!! Off to work again and won’t be on until late.
God is so good; his mercy is from everlasting to everlasting!!! Praise his holy name!
Lisa
amen to your last coment lisa
My personal belief is that we should just quit arguing about what we believe and LIVE what we believe.
PS edit: Does anyone wish to offer reasons why this is?
Diane
Amen! I agree Lisa & Dianne!
Sorry if I offended anyone, my only desire is that you would rejoice in the Lord Jesus Christ and understand that “Calvinism” cannot bless the whole body of Christ: it only divides the body of Christ into segments; only Jesus can save those who put their faith and trust in Him and give real everlasting joy. We need to realize now that there will be no “Calvinist” in heaven. We will all have a new name and it definitely want be “Calvin” so the sooner you get over it the better off you will be. So be blessed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
I’ve got leaping Joy, everlasting peace, and the fullness of the Holy Ghost and “Calvinism” didn’t give it to me, but there is a name above all others. He gave it to me. His name is Jesus, the Christ, and the Son of the living God. There are men who have blessed me with their knowledge of God but I am not going to be called after their name. There is only one name that I want to be called after and it is the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen! Amen! Amen!
Theology simply means the study of God, Bear. Open your Bible and read it and what is that? Theology.
Your own statements about God that you make on this forum is your theology.
An atheist who is trying to disprove God is practicing theology.
People call me a Calvinist, or Reformed... but the fact of the matter is that I have drawn my own beliefs from my own study of the Bible and what the Holy Spirit has been faithful to reveal to me. It just happens that what I learned from my own study of the Word aligns closely to Reformed theology.
I didnt set out to become "reformed", I just realized one day that thats what I was.
By the way, this book sounds good. It sound a lot like what John MacArthur has been saying about some of the younger preachers that have come along lately in the reformed ranks. He has had some really bold things to say to them... and even some rebukes.
Krispy
Just some thoughts on your comments here, rbanks:
“Calvinism” cannot bless the whole body of Christ: it only divides the body of Christ into segments
I’ve got leaping Joy, everlasting peace, and the fullness of the Holy Ghost and “Calvinism” didn’t give it to me,
I speak generally, because your comments reflect a common way of thinking among us.
We rightfully should be concerned about the over dependency on names and isms. However, in our attempt to absolve ourselves from any association with them, we may very well be –
1) revealing our naivety about their influences on our own faith perspectives
2) considering ourselves above those who are associated with them.
3) revealing a failure to appreciate the struggles among those who have contended “for the faith” in these movements.
4) we become our own authority on what it means to be Christian
Of course Calvin and Calvin-ism are not synonymous! But, still, its influences on historical evangelicalism and other Christian movements cannot be underestimated! The Puritans were deeply shaped by Calvinistic influences. And that came over to North America. Even our economic and legal practices today are affected. Some good foundations were laid! Sadly, those traditions are becoming lost and replaced – to our detriment! Our prevailing ignorance of history (ex theological) doesn’t help.
One of the most significant criticisms hurled against the evangelical/revivalist type of movements is their anti-intellectualistic stance. Pietism and experience were the priority. Dogma was not!
You see the effects in modern evangelicalism: heart over head – ie, feeling over thinking, etc. You see this embedded in our language - even here. It's the water we swim in - and like the fish, we can't even see it.
This collective blindspot has only created bigger and brutal divides - and a lot of gullible Christians – often based on insufficient THINKING.
Ex: Evangelicals could have been a stronger antidote against liberalism if they had given thinking and scholarship a higher priority.
Let’s not be proud of our ignorance! A Catholic once said to me, “When people go to church they leave their brains at the door.” That, I fear, can be said for any denomination.
Jesus wants our minds too - but not to shut them down!
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Just curious – what do you think of author’s comments on the video clips in the link Lysa posted? Does he raise a legitimate concern?
Diane
Beautiful Diane! That was a great post and much more eloquently says what I have tried to say all along...
Let’s not be proud of our ignorance!
Love it! There is a disdain among Christians today for studying and education. Interesting to me that centuries ago religious education was held in high esteem... and yet here in the 21st century church we are here on this forum decrying the condition of the church. There are many reasons why, but ignorance plays a key role... and the lack of Biblical education.
Frankly it's rebellion in nature.
Krispy
Frankly it's rebellion in nature.
Yes, "Each does what he sees fit". Our own opinion reigns supreme. We can't see that we make our own INTERPRETATION of truth supreme. Ours FEELS right, and that's what makes it right.
Today we don't divide over doctrine. We divide over worship style. What does that say about us: feeling OVER thinking!
Let's not blame Calvin!
Diane
Let’s not be proud of our ignorance! A Catholic once said to me, “When people go to church they leave their brains at the door.” That, I fear, can be said for any denomination.Jesus wants our minds too - but not to shut them down!
The bible teaches that He wants our minds to be renewed. It also teaches that we are to have the “mind of Christ”. If I am ignorant because I have joy unspeakable from the Holy Spirit and not from “Calvinism” then we will let God be the judge of that because I give Him all the praise for not getting involved in an “ism” that only divides the body of Christ.
Also who has the “Catholics” brain and to what purpose is she using it for? I realize there is a lot of ignorance to the things of God. We desperately need the wisdom of God and we should be asking God continually for wisdom in everything. We also need him to direct our paths.
I realize also my post may have been a little over zealous but I did restrain from writing a lot of things that could have been too strong. The Lord is my strength and my portion and whatever truth anybody receives came from the “Spirit of Christ” and we know man’s opinions about the “Word” are not always inspired. The truth in “Calvinism” did not come from “John Calvin” because if it is the truth it came from the “Spirit of Truth”. We can thank God for the revelation of the truth he discovered as well as recognizing the errors he also made that did not come from the “Spirit of the Lord”. When I say that I am a follower of Jesus Christ then there are no errors coming from Him that could divide the true “body of Christ” or do any damage to my relationship with God. But if I were to say that I am a follower of “John Calvin” (Calvinism) then I have divided myself from the “body of Christ” and have also brought some damage to my relationship with God because of the errors that came from him.
Anyway bless you Diane and you are a gifted writing and I enjoy most of your posts. I am definitely not a writer and I leave out so much that I could say verbally so much better.
Quote: "If I am ignorant because I have joy unspeakable from the H.S and not from Calvanism, we will let God be the Judge". Or whatever word might be inserted in place of the title Calvanist. I think this sums up what many are trying to say even though each might say it a little differently.
One of my many appreciations of S.I. is for teaching me a healthy liberalism as a result from those many varied background sermons and individuals found here. I love those who I will never see this side of heaven because they love Christ first in their lives. Christians drive stakes through the heart of denominationalism and the other ism's When the glory of God is their main pursuit.
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