Is sin moral?

What is satan primarily trying to get people to except? In the garden what was his focus in regard to his tempting Eve? His question and statements were all implying, you can have fulfillment without GODS direction and help, in fact you can even be equal with God Himself,you will be like GOD knowing good and evil.

Ever since his first encounter with man in the garden, satan's agenda has not changed, he aims to bring man to a place of self exaltation because he knows from experience what the result of such folly is. He has developed quite a clever marketing strategy to implement his agenda; he leads man down a deceptive path in order to mask his true purpose which is making man believe in his own inherent goodness apart from GOD. He markets the idea that being moral and being GODLY are one in the same, this naturally leads man to assume that if I have high moral standards I am like GOD.

Even people who claim not to believe in GOD will accept this concept of morality as being a GOD like virtue. Here in lies the problem, morality is always subject to environment , what is acceptable in one arena might not be in another thus making morality subjective. So if morality is equal with GODLENESS and morality is subjective, then GOD is in subjection to my arena of thought, thus making me the god of my own world. What ever is right for me might not be right for you, thus negating absolute truth. Does this not sound exactly like modern day secular theology?

But wait, what about Christians, surly they understand that being moral is not the same as being GODLY, or do they? If you were to ask the average believer today what he looks far in a person that would indicate a relationship with our dear LORD, you might be surprised at the answers you would get! Morality would most certainly have to be an obvious trait, but morality based on what? Morality for a Christian is unique to Gods word or HIS law. The problem is Christian morality gets mingled in with all other secular based moralities and they are viewed as one in the same.

The homosexual community has Christian based moral values mixed in with their own moral values and attempt to validate their lifestyle based on morality because it is morally wrong to discriminate. If morality is the supreme dictator in our understanding and theology, we have most certainly missed the mark. Governing our every day activities based solely on morality allows us to have no need of a daily commune with our FATHER GOD.

What I find in the christian community is this, we neglect a consultation with GOD on issues such as entertainment, dress ,ect.......in exchange for a moral standard, we allow morality to dictate our standard,when our standard should be every word that proceeds from the mouth of GOD. I am not implying Christians should not adhere to a moral standard, just that we have come to rely on the standard while neglecting the ever abiding presence of our FATHER.

It is easier to govern or actions based on morality than to spend the time necessary to hear from our FATHER. A lifestyle based strictly on morality will soon become legalistic and unfruitful, all the while leading us away from communion with GOD. I find we become tolerant of and even friendly with worldly ways as long as they fit in a moral box, not even considering how GODS honor has been violated. Never forget this one thing, if GOD is being robbed of the honor due HIM, I do not care how moral, clean, and upright a matter or situation is, it originated in the mind of satan. We Christians must get back to honoring GOD in every aspect of our lives if we are ever going to see HIS glory manifested in our midst.

link:
http://crossconnectfellowship.com/

In response to the opening post:

Is morality the real issue?
- Yes, the very heart of human misery is moral depravity,
of humans and fallen angels. This, in the future will be
eradicated.

Was Adam moral before he sinned?
- Adam was always a moral being before and after he sinned.
Before their fall they were not subject to the myriad of
temptations as we are now, especially in our generation.

Their moral judgement was focused on 'eating or not
eating the fruit'. They were basically innocent on the
temptations, that we humans after the fall, are facing.

Did Adam become immoral after he sinned.
- Although Adam has lost his 'innocence'. There was no
account that he became a wicked man after the fall, I
think he was still morally upright but not perfect.

Can living a moral life save you?
- Yes, if one can follow the 'law' perfectly. How about
morality without God? It is chasing the wind, the most
important commandment is" Thou shall love the LORD thy
God..."

Should a Christian even be concerned about morality?
- As moral beings we will always be required to live
righteously and our moral conduct is subject to the
judgement and mercy of God. Judgement, if we will mock
the Gospel and continue to live wantonly, mercy if by His
grace we will follow hard after Him with a contrite and
a humble spirit.

Well said thingsabove.

The issue of morality does not concern only on keeping oneself from committing a sin, we must also allow God to cultivate in us the fruit of the Spirit, that we may mature into a man of Godly character and inclination.

As we mature in Godly character, we will be relieved of many sins and temptations that easily beset us.

Here are some questions I have.

1. Is morality the real issue?
2. Was Adam moral before he sinned?
3. Did he become immoral after he sinned?
4. Can living a moral life save you?
5. Should a Christian even be concerned about morality?Is morality the real issue?

I think it is significant that the words "morals" and "morality" are not found in the Bible.

Is morality the real issue?
1. No, walking after the Spirit is the issue.

Why? Because a man can be faced with two choices, none of which have to do with morality, yet God will be pleased if you do not lean upon your own understanding and follow rather His Spirit, His voice to you and choose the one which is of God (the one which He is leading you to choose).

This will shock people, but the Bible is not a moral guidebook. It is a book about the revelation of God's Son and how we walk with Him by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Was Adam moral before he sinned?
2. Nothing to do with morality. What is not of God is sin. The issue is "WHAT IS NOT OF GOD". And that covers a lot of seemingly "good" things.

Did he become immoral after he sinned?
3. Adam became lawless.

Can living a moral life save you?
4.No, only living by the Spirit can save you. (to do that you must be born-again, spiritually).

Should a Christian even be concerned about morality? Is morality the real issue?
5. Again, a Christian should be concerned about following after the Lord by the Spirit. If we were concerned about "morality", then we would be man-centered and not God-centered. And what I mean by that is morality is man-centered, but walking by the Spirit is God-centered. If you just concern yourself with morality (which is relative) then you will be concerned about pollution, wasting resources, Corporate fraud, Governmental fraud, saving seals, and saving whales and cleaning up the earth, etc, etc.

As I said before, "morals" and "morality" are not found in the Bible. They are man-made words and they are also relative depending on the part of the world you live in.

In Papua New Guinea you are immoral if you leave your tribe but you are very moral if you have more than one wife.

So, then walking after "morality" is walking after the flesh.
Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal_5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (The lust of the flesh, can be seemingly "good" things that we have reasoned out.)

Some men are quite taken with their morality and it can be considered part of the "pride of life".

Luk_18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

1Jn_2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the PRIDE OF LIFE, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

We live by a higher life and that life is by the Spirit of God. Against such there is no law.

We do what the Lord tells us to do and we go where the Lord tells us to go and He will never lead us into sin. He will always be leading us to put to death the deeds of the flesh and the deeds of the flesh include "leaning upon our own religious, moral understanding".

When you obey God, "moral" people may disagree with you, but that is because God's ways (the Spirit) are higher than our ways (morality).

Hope you understand what I am trying to say.

Walking by a code of morals is to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I will leave you to ponder these quotes:

"Morality is part of the condition of the fall. Now endowed with the power to define good and evil, to elaborate it, to know it and to pretend to obey it, man can no longer renounce this power which he has purchased so dearly. He must exercise it. He (fallen man) cannot live without morality." (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 71)

"Christianity has nothing commensurate with any morality. It is the essence itself of revelation that rules out all ethical systematizing and all similarity with a morality. The Christian life is not a life conformed to a morality, but one conformed to a word revealed, present, and living." (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 86)

"In the eyes of our contemporaries, Christianity is morality first of all. And have not many epochs of Christian history been characterized by the church's insistence upon actions and conduct? ...There cannot be a Christian ethic. The whole of revelation is against it, and every attempt to construct such a morality, no matter how faithful, is a betrayal of the revelation of God in Jesus Christ, and in the last analysis an imposture. (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 201)

"The Christian...life is dynamic. Each situation, like each person, is novel. The command of God is not a general rule, or collection of rules. It is always particular for a person at this moment, in this situation. In the unity recovered through grace, in the union with God, we are in the presence of quite a different ethical orientation. It can only be lived in Christ. There is no Christian life without the action of the Holy Spirit, without His inspiration and guidance. The necessity for God's intervening to guide our lives puts an end to our pretending to erect a Christian morality. Christian living does not exist as a morality; for he who lives it, lives by it. He does not follow commandments nor achieve objectives. He lives by the word of God which nourishes him, guides him, and carries him. There is not one Christian life. There are as many Christian lives as there are Christians. One lives in ever-surprising novelty. (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 201-219)

"Christianity seems at first to be all about morality, all about duties and rules and guilt and virtue, yet it leads you on, out of all that, into something beyond. One has a glimpse of a country where they do not talk of those things, except perhaps as a joke. Every one there is filled full with what we should call goodness as a mirror is filled with light. But they do not call it goodness. They do not call it anything. They are not thinking of it. They are too busy looking at the source from which it comes." (C. S. Lewis - Mere Christianity. Macmillan Publishing. 1978. pgs. 130,131)

"The Christian is in a different position from other people who are trying to do good. The Christian thinks any good he does come from the Christ-life inside him. He does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us..." (C. S. Lewis - Mere Christianity. Macmillan Publishing. 1978. pg. 64)

Pilgrim

The bible does not only contain the words of God but also the words of men as well as the words of the devil, and within the bible are concepts which are represented by words which one may or may not find in the bible.

Morality is a concept in the bible but there are other words that men use to represent it. Morality defines what is good and what is evil_ what is sinful and what is not_whether we are walking after the Spirit or we are not._and by which there will be a great judgment to come. Not all human activities or choices though have moral dimension.

Sin is the transgression of the (moral) law 1 Jn 3:4, when there is no law there is no transgression (Rom 4:15), but men are not left in total darkness for the moral law is written in every men's heart.
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Romans 2:12-15
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For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
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The bible is full of moral precepts, but even as bible readers, the basis of our moral conduct or judgment can be misplaced like in the case of apostle Paul in his earlier life, or King Saul when he followed his seemingly more 'moral' and wiser way and thereby disobeying the clear and specific instructions of God.

We may read the bible in a very scholarly approach and be wiser in our own eyes, but let us remember how the mighty men have fallen.

Morality is a concept in the bible but there are other words that men use to represent it. Morality defines what is good and what is evil_ what is sinful and what is not_whether we are walking after the Spirit or we are not._and by which there will be a great judgment to come. Not all human activities or choices though have moral dimension.

Men would say today that it was immoral of God to slay women and children in the OT.

God does what He does because He is who He is and He does not care about what men think is "moral".

Much of the world thinks spanking kids is immoral.

Morality is defined by societies to judge outward behavior.

My muslim boss thinks God was immoral to "kill" His Son.

Only the Spirit can define what is not of God (sinful).

Are you getting the picture, now?

Morality has nothing to do with God. Now, as Christians we may be behaving in such a way that the world exclaims, "Oh, he is so moral", but it is only according to their definition. Because the very next day, the same Christian may be accused of being immoral. Jesus was basically accused of being immoral because he ate and drank with "winebibbers" (drunks) and other "sinners".

We really do live by the Spirit of God and not a set of moral rules and regulations. If all we need is rules and regulations then we don't need the Holy Spirit.

Pilgrim

How do you define sin?

Anything that is not of God is sin. Another way to say it is: "Whatever is not of faith is sin." (Romans 14:23) Faith is not an academic nod! It is total dependence upon God and produces divine action in man. Relationship with Christ is not static, but dynamic. Is your relationship with Christ static or dynamic?

"You either implement the purpose of your creation, by dependence upon God, or prostitute your humanity! You were created to please God. Without faith it is impossible to please Him, so without faith, whatever you do, no matter what it may be, is sin! The only alternative to faith is sin! That is why Satan will always present you with a reasonable alternative to faith, for he knows that if only he can get you to act in other than dependence upon God, you are defying your Creator, no matter how lofty your motives, or otherwise commendable your actions." (W. Ian Thomas - The Mystery of Godliness.)

Pilgrim

Wow! Amen Tuc.

And I might add, Law isn't just the Mosaic Law; "law" is anything humans can do--any human effort apart from abiding in Christ. So when Paul writes in Romans 6 that we aren't under law, but under grace, that means that we aren't under ANY sort of human works--even how much we believe, how faithful we are, or anything else. It's all about God giving, and us receiving.

Pilgrim