Why not Suicide? | SermonIndex

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Trekker Jul 3, 2012

Has anyone any thoughts or knowledge on what the Jewish view of suicide has been down through the ages and why suicide was never called a sin or forbidden in the OT? Doesnt it seem strange that it was never once mentioned in any way? In light of the many OT suicides it seems to me that Jewish people do not or did NOT think it a damnable sin. There was the suicide of Ahithophel, of Saul's armorbearer, the kamikazi suicide of Samson, and there was the mass suicide of Jews at the fortress of Masada during the siege of the Romans (A.D 70?).I have been pondering a lot lately as to why God would be silent on such a thing as suicide, particularly in the Old Testament.

Chuck Swindoll once said that Satan is involved in every suicide. This would certainly seem to be the case in the life of Saul and Judas, both servants of satan, as well as many of the suicides of today. And pride often seems to be prevalent in the lives of those people. Does anyone have any input on the subject of suicide in Jewish thought and teaching?Is the Jewish view of suicide identical to the Catholic view? Oddly enough, despite the Catholic view of suicide almost all the suicides i know of personally (and i know of quite a few) were committed by members of Catholic families or those raised Catholic (not necessarily practicing or devout themselves). Anyone have any similar observations?

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ginnyrose Jul 3, 2012

The OT law says "Thou shalt not kill."

Violation of the OT laws required a sacrifice or else they were subject to the death penalty.

Now, how is a suicide victim going to offer a sacrifice for self-murder? He/she is dead - can't do it.

Self-murder is a sin one cannot repent from nor turn away from it. It is final.

Murder is sin regardless who does it to who.

I know one suicide victim and he was not a Catholic.

I do not know what Catholics or Jews think of suicide but I do know what the Scriptures say about murder.

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enid Jul 3, 2012

Genesis 9:5 says "Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning, from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man's brother I will require the life of man."

Verse 6 says "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man."

Suicide is murder, as mentioned in the Ten Commandments, given by God, you shall not murder.

What is the difference between murdering someone else or murdering yourself?

As has been said, you can't repent of suicide.

And, if you need to repent...

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Trekker Jul 3, 2012

QUOTE: "The OT law says "Thou shalt not kill."==GINNYROSE

Yes, that is quoted every time such a subject comes up. But it is insufficient. David killed on a regular basis, and even the prophet Samuel killed (once). So to use that commandment and say that ALL killing is forbidden is wrong.

QUOTE: "Genesis 9:5 says "Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning, from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man's brother I will require the life of man."

Verse 6 says "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man."==ENID

Again, same as above argument. All killing cannot be wrong, since David killed regularly, Samson killed regularly, Samuel killed (once), and so forth.

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Lysa Jul 3, 2012

I do not know what Catholics or Jews think of suicide but I do know what the Scriptures say about murder.
And...
As has been said, you can't repent of suicide.
And, if you need to repent...

It must be nice to have special knowledge exactly where every suicide goes eternally. You guys make it sound like suicide is the unforgiveable sin but we all know that’s not correct. Suicide is not as black and white as a religious person might think.

Trekker wrote:
And pride often seems to be prevalent in the lives of those people. Does anyone have any input on the subject of suicide in Jewish thought and teaching?

I tend to agree with Chuck Swindoll but with more of a twist, I believe that every suicide has a demon involved or several (evil spirits) that drive that person to kill themselves.

So if a person was driven to it by demon or evil spirit(s) then it’s not exactly murder, is it?

God bless and just my two cents!!
Lisa

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enid Jul 3, 2012

If what the the word of God says isn't good enough for you, then, it's not good enough for you.

sermonindex Jul 3, 2012

If what the the word of God says isn't good enough for you, then, it's not good enough for you.

Brother Enid... thats a bit unfair. Lysa loves the Word of God. There can be no doubt about that.

As has been said, you can't repent of suicide.
And, if you need to repent...

Oh boy... need to be careful with this one! Surely you're not saying that if you die and you happen to have a few sins that you have not confessed and repented of that you will not be saved, are you? If so, then what you are saying is that ultimately you salvation is dependent upon YOU and YOUR WORKS.

Obviously repentence is necessary for salvation, we all understand that. However, when God saves you does He save you only from your sins of the past? Or does He save you and forgive you of all your sins past, present and future?

The fruit of a truly saved man or woman will be a life of repentence! Daily repenting of our sins because we will never reach perfection here in this life.

Suppose we take this logic that if someone commits suicide they cant repent therefore they can not go to heaven. (Of course we are assuming we're talking about someone who professes to be a Christian) Now... apply that logic to the following situation: You are struggling with a sin, or a sinful attitude, or sinful thoughts. You're driving down the road and BOOM... you're blindsided by a drunk. You never saw it coming.

Uh oh... no time to repent! Your goose is cooked. 20 years of walking with the Lord, but you go to hell because you couldnt repent of whatever it was that you were struggling with that day.

Surely you dont believe that.

So how can we say someone who may be dealing with emotional or mental problems that to them seem beyond their control... and in a moment of distress they take their own life... and because they cant repent of that their salvation is null and void?

Someone said "murderers can not see the Kingdom of God." Well, neither can adulterers, but according to Jesus words... we are ALL adulterers. All of us, even after we have been saved have lusted. We have all committed murder in our hearts by the angry thoughts we have had about others. That was His point! Without His GRACE all of us would be guilty. In the flesh we are guilty, but our souls have been set free.

None of us are in a position to judge what happens to someone who confesses to be a believe who takes their own life. Personally I feel a tremendous amount of sympathy for someone who commits suicide. I have an uncle who did that a year ago. (He never was a believer, a little different situation)

If we say that we can do nothing to earn salvation... then the converse of that statement is true: we can do nothing to lose our salvation.

If we say that if we have a sin that we did not repent of and that will keep us out of heaven... we have just adopted the Roman Catholic view of salvation and no longer are speaking of Biblical salvation.

Only 2 more posts left.

Krispy

L

Lysa Jul 3, 2012

by enid
If what the the word of God says isn't good enough for you, then, it's not good enough for you.

Enid,

I pray the grace of God be with you (and me) during this conversation.

The fact remains that the word of God is silent on suicide. Verses about murder were provided not about suicide. I beg you to see that we cannot impose our own beliefs about something to a verse (or verses) and thereby CONDEMNING HUNDREDS TO HELL when it’s not plainly written in the Scriptures. *(edited for clarity)

I do hope you know that the word of God is always good enough for me when it is applied correctly.

God bless you,
Lisa

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enid Jul 3, 2012

End.

sermonindex Jul 3, 2012

If a demon drives/entices me to commit adultery, is it now somehow not adultery? Or am I somehow exempt from guilt? Or, if a demon tempts me to steal something and I steal it, am I exempt from guilt? Of course not! demons can have limited influence and can tempt a believer, but can't "make" us do anything. That's like the child eating the cookie they were already told no about by dad, and saying "the devil made me do it." There is personal accountability. You opened a door to the demonic influence, or at the very least, when demonic oppression/attack came, you didn't shut the door in it's face by the Word of God, prayer, and the Spirit of God. Is a True Believer powerless against demons? OF COURSE NOT! We have power in Christ to cast them out of unbelievers and to tell Satan to get behind us.

"When we are tempted....He will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear.......but .He is faithful to provide a way of escape..."

"Each man is enticed and dragged away by his own lusts"

As far as David killing people, Samson killing people, Samuel killing, etc. Again, there seems to be a great lack understanding of the differences in the Old Covenenant & the new. David also had more than one wife. Who's making excuses for that today? They also made animal sacrifices. Anyone saying that's OK today?

These things were OT types and shadows of greater "war", greater "murder", and greater "enemies" to come. Now, in the New Covenant, "our enemies are spiritual wickedness in high places", and "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty in God for the pulling down of strongholds". And the only murder recorded in the New Testament ordained by God is the killing of sin, the "putting to death the deeds of the flesh", and the "mortifying of the flesh".

Now, we are not to presume the role of taking anyone's life, but are to "entrust ourselves to Him", to "leave Room for God's wrath, for vengeance is His and He will repay". If the Lord needs to strike down someone (like Annanias & Saphira, those taking the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner, etc.), He will do it Himself, and doesn't need the fleshly intervention of His children. H can use the bloodthirsty heathen to carry it out if He decides.

There is NOT ONE example of a New covenant "murder" or taking ones life into ones own hands by violence. Not one. In fact, when Peter drew the sword (being stuck in his mindset also in the Old Covenant), Jesus rebuked him sharply, told him to put his sword away, and said that he who lives by the sword shall die by it. Jesus entrusted His life to the Father &submitted to the cross, and LAID DOWN HIS LIFE. The apostles got filled with the Holy Spirit and all did the same. The early church did the same. Believers down through the ages have all done the same.

I have studied the Masada mass suicide a bit, and it is esteemed as some great noble thing by many as a source of pride. It was a mass suicide. Period. I'm not judging them, but they obviously hadn't entrusted their lives fully to God, or they wouldn't have taken their own lives. Some people had to kill their own babies and children there. WHAT'S NOBLE ABOUT THAT? And where is the trust in the Lord's care in that? I know the story and I know what was bearing down on them, somI don't judge them harshly, but it is what it is: a mass suicide.

sermonindex Jul 3, 2012

Lysa,
You do admit that suicide is murder right? I am not being dogmatic about the eternal fate of one who commits suicide, but the fate of those who aren't truly trusting their lives to the Lord Jesus. Murder is the taking of a life. Suicide is self-murder. "and he know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in Him" (1 John 3:15).

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, MURDER, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, back-biters, haters of God, despite full, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmercifull:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." (Romans 1:28-32)

I'm not going to be dogmatic and say absolutely that I know for sure everyone who ever committed suicide under the new covenant definitely went to hell, but to use examples from the old covenant of those who killed is not applicable at all whatsoever. And suicide is murder. Period. It's not trusting the Lord Jesus with our lives. It's the ultimate act of mistrust. We take what only God can give and only He should be able to take away. Just some food for thought.
In Him,
Jeff

sermonindex Jul 3, 2012

Jeff... Jesus said:

Matthew 5:21-26 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."

We have all murdered in our heart. Even as believers we have all murdered in our heart. Just like we have all lusted in our hearts. Thank God for His grace! And He will lead us to repentence, but Jesus main point was that we are ALL guilty of murder and adultry. His point was that without the grace of God none of us would be worthy of His kingdom.

Say I said something on here that got you riled up... and you were angry with me in your heart and had bad thoughts or feelings about me... and you were suddenly wiped out in an accident with no chance to repent... would you stand before God a murderer? Or would His grace toward you be sufficient? Would He hold it against you and send you to hell? Or did He truly save your soul for eternity the day He poured His love out on you the day you were born again?

It's ok to discuss suicide. I find it humorous that all these people who claim in other discussions that they HATE theology are in this dicussion... discussing theology!

But not a single one of us can say with any certainty how GOD feels or thinks about this subject.

Krispy

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ginnyrose Jul 3, 2012

QUOTE:
" All killing cannot be wrong, since David killed regularly, Samson killed regularly, Samuel killed (once), and so forth."

The "kill" as it appears in the ten commandments means murder. This differs radically from killing as in warfare. In war each soldier is equipped to defend himself, or should be. The rules are understood by both sides. If a person gets killed under these circumstances it is killing but not murder as stated in the ten commandments.

Consider this incident:
2 Kings 2:5: “Now you also know what Joab the son of Zeruiah did to me, what he did to the two commanders of the armies of Israel, to Abner the son of Ner, and to Amasa the son of Jether, whom he killed; he also shed the blood of war in peace. And he put the blood of war on his belt about his waist, and on his sandals on his feet."

This is David's advice to his son Solomon just before he died. You may want to read about these incidents so you can better understand why David was so adamant about Solomon getting rid of Joab who was David's nephew, Solomon's first cousin.

In the NT the command is thou shalt not murder (Matthew 19:18; Romans 1:29). Jesus took killing to a level not understood by the Jews under the law.

God did not like killing either but he allow it to rid the earth of rebellious people. To do so he used David. However, when the time came to build the temple God told David he could not do it because "he was a bloody man". A person could take this incident and see some wonderful types and shadows here of the NT covenant.

*****************************************************

I believe it to be very dangerous to suggest that suicide is forgiven (God forgave all my sins past, present and future) and can be entered into without any serious repercussions. There may be people reading this thread right now who may be contemplating suicide and because of some of the sentiments expressed on here will then believe it is alright to do so and will go do it. Since this is the case I think the mods should delete this entire thread!

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ginnyrose Jul 3, 2012

This thread puts me in a panic!

I HAVE IN THE PAST BEEN SUICIDAL AND I PROMISE YOU IT COMES FROM THE DEVIL! MAKE NO MISTAKE! IF YOU GIVE IN TO IT YOU WILL BE SEPARATED FROM GOD FOREVER!

So, am I shouting? You bet I am! Don't do it if you are ever tempted to do so!

ginnyrose

sermonindex Jul 3, 2012

Yeah, I know hatred is as murder. My point is not to excuse sin (the fact that hatred is as sin is murder doesn't excuse anything, but makes the responsibility GREATER beyond actions to now thoughts, motives, & intents of the heart).

That has nothing to do with what I discussed. Again, show me ONE example of the Biblically endorsed taking of a life BY A BELIEVER (another's or their own) in the New Testament (under the New Covenant). There isn't one. There's a reason for that. There is a trusting of your lives into the Fathers hands, no matter what comes your way, in the New Covenant. That includes the taking of another's life (even in "defending one's self) and/or suicide. The Lord, the apostles, & early church never "took up arms" against their enemies, nor their own lives when it got tough. Doing so shows a lack of trust in God's Soveriegn care come what may.

sermonindex Jul 3, 2012

I've had the demonic realm send the same tempting whisper in my ear earlier in my walk. Mainly when struggling with a besetting sin that didn't fully go away at conversion (several did instantly, one or two took mortification/sanctification to choke them out). Anyways, demons want you to take your life into your hands for a reason. It's not God's way, by His plan, according to His Gospel, or by the Power of His Spirit. Both defending yourself (taking up arms) & suicide operate by the Satanic Church's motto "Do what thou wilt", not "entrust yourself to Him who judges rightly". I have no confidence, personally, in heaven after suicide.

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RobertW Jul 3, 2012

To dismiss the 6th commandment as not pertaining to self-inflicted death/suicide is to wrest the passage. Rather than reinvent the wheel, I wish to share an excerpt from Dr. David R. Brown:

"Noted Bible scholar Charles Ryrie has an excellent chapter on suicide in his book "You Mean The Bible Teaches That...He says "The sanctity of human life is paramount in the sixth commandment, 'Thou shalt not kill' (Ex. 20:13). Here murder is condemned, and elsewhere in the law every act that endangers human life is condemned, whether the act arises from carelessness (Deut. 22:8), wantonness (Lev. 19:14), hatred, anger, or revenge (Lev. 19:17-18). Human life is sacred, for man was made in the image of God (Gen. 9:6, where also this same sanctity is made the basis for capital punishment). But the commandment has no direct object. It does not say, 'Thou shalt not kill someone' or 'Thou shalt not kill thy fellow man.' It is simply, 'Thou shall not kill." He goes on to quote from Carl Keil and Franz Delitzsch "Thus it is to be concluded that 'the prohibition includes not only the killing of a fellow-man, but the destruction of one's own life, or suicide.'" Simply stated, "Suicide negates God's estimate of life and violates the sixth commandment (Rom. 13:9)."

"The Bible does not mention one single instance of a good man committing suicide" D. L. Moody once said. I checked it out and he is right. Every biblical account of suicide reveals an individual whose lifestyle was not honoring to the Lord. All were living outside of the sphere of accepted behavioral standards of the Lord God.

1. I Samuel 31:3-5 -- King Saul and his armor bearer kill themselves by falling on their swords. Saul was forsaken by the Lord when he turned to witchcraft and forsook following God.

2. II Samuel 17:1-14 & 23 (key 23) -- Ahithophel devises a plan to kill King David. When his plan is rejected he hangs himself.

3. I Kings 16:18-20 -- Zimri, military commander of half the chariots in the army of Israel, plots to overthrow the king of Israel and declare himself king. He kills the king and all the male heirs in the family. When the people found out about what had taken place, they appoint Omri, military commander of the army as king. The army marches on Tirzah and defeats the soldiers loyal to Zimri. When he sees the city is taken he retreated into the royal palace and sets it on fire around him and dies in the flames.

4. Matthew 27:3-5; Acts 1:18 -- Judas, betrayer of the Lord goes out and hangs himself by thrusting himself on a pointed beam, causing his insides to gush out. (end of quote)

As for Samson I do not view his death as suicide. He died by the hand of God. I have had this disagreement with believers in the past, but let us consider that it was not the strength of Samson that brought down the house, it was the power of God. If God does not answer his prayer then he dies in prison. It is a tragic ending to a man who was called to be a deliverer in Israel. When the Philistines plucked out his eyes they plucked out Samson's weakness. Hebrews 11 tells us that Samson died in faith. Therefore Samson cannot be viewed as an excuse to take ones own life.

Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived. (Judges 16:30)

The time would fail to give examples of Christ and Christians that knowingly went to their deaths when they could have chosen life, but this cannot be seen as 'suicide'. Paul was warned repeatedly that trouble (and ultimately death) awaited him. None of those things moved him. Old Testament examples as well documented in Hebrews 11. These people all died in faith. So we have to make a sharp distinction between ones desire to end their own life for their own reasons and what took place in scripture among the 'Samsons', etc. A person that commits suicide is moving in ultimate presumption. No one knows what becomes of them. To knowingly and deliberately risk ones soul with such a foolish act is to buy the lie of Satan and risk eternal damnation.

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Lordoitagain Jul 3, 2012

1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Here on SI, people make manifest and very obvious whether or not they are approved by the heresies they either denounce or defend! Within all of the different frameworks of theology we either lean toward holiness or hell. We either lean toward a theology and life of continual victory over sin which Jesus came and died to give us or we lean toward a theological stance that makes one feel comfortable that somehow we can continue in sin and grace will abound … to which Paul answers “God forbid.” (Rom. 6:1-2).

Regardless of thousands of posts on SI and of winning wit matches with hundreds and of having the last word hundreds of times, none of our arguments can save us when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ. MANY who were once servants of God will hear loudly and clearly: “And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Mat 25:30)

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

On that day we will be one or the other:
washed in the blood and made victorious over sin by Christ, or
ungodly and sinner.
In case you are being blinded by the heresy that is being vomited forth on the forum, please believe the simple truth of the gospel: 1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

A person who murders himself makes it obvious that he does not have eternal life abiding in him.

L

Lysa Jul 3, 2012

jeffmar asks:
You do admit that suicide is murder right?

No, I do not admit that.

I can’t explain every single suicide but I do believe for the majority of suicides a demon(s) drove them to it; whether it was the demon of oppression, lies, depression and suicide, I don’t know; and I hope I have not come across as all knowing for the reasons someone takes their own life. I do know that I was almost “driven” to it once about 12 yrs ago but for the grace of God speaking into my life; this argument would be about me and my soul.

AND I also would like to state for the record that I am NOT saying that all those who commit suicide are going to heaven; but also for the record I don’t know that all those who commit suicide are going straight to hell either; only God is their Judge, not me or anyone else.

Are there any here willing to admit that the Scriptures are not pristinely clear on this matter - suicide? And because the word is not clear, I will not judge another person’s soul but believe and pray for mercy. For that I will not apologize for.

God bless,
Lisa

sermonindex Jul 3, 2012

If one person reads the posts that excuse suicide and later commits murder on themselves - their blood will GOD require of those who have posted here and their belief has been shown already by the others that it is horrendously false.

If we blame "demons" for anything that we do - where do we draw the line?

I'm shocked at these posts and wasn't ready to read these things.

The Scriptures are very clear about even self-mutalation, nonetheless "murdering anyone - including self".

Only GOD gave permission in the O.T. of when to put someone to death and when someone did that shouldn't have, they paid the price.

If just one person takes their own life because of this abominably false belief that's being espoused here - HE will hold you responsible - but you won't know until you see Him that you were responsible and held responsible as complicite to murder - because you don't know who is reading your posts.

GOD forgive you and praying you will keep quiet on this until you've become more Scripturally literate or hear HIS Voice on this topic. Your posts are promoting excuses for self murder and you will be held accountable.