Speaking the truth...

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spekgirl Jul 5, 2012

Hey friends i have a question thats bugging me, i have been hearing alot lately from my brothers and sisters about to speak out in faith and be positive with words (maybe close to word of faith movement which i know is not correct) the other day two of my sisters in Christ asked me how i was and i was going through a hard time and i said "not very good" and they seemed to turn on me and tell me i had to speak out positive and say i was good, so one of them asked me again how i was and i answered and said i was not going to say i was good when i was not and lie... since then im having a hard time, where do we draw the line am i in the wrong, are we to only speak in faith and positive or are we able to speak the truth?
Thanks for your advice.

sermonindex Jul 5, 2012

You're right. Your friends are wrong. Simple as that. And don't let them tell you that what they're promoting is "speaking in faith." People who teach that sort of thing usually have the absolute lowest understanding of the Biblical definition of faith.

Don't sweat it. Really. :)

B

Blayne Jul 5, 2012

Hi! 'Spekgirl'
I suppose you could begin by thanking God that you don't attend their church. Because, as near as I can tell, there wouldn't be too many volunteering for needful prayer.
Instead, they would all be insistin' tuh row up the De Nile river.
I never followed after the so-called 'Faith Movement'; it always appeared to me to be a pious positive thinking delusion. But I have personally known many who followed after the "You have not because you confess not" ideas. Most had deluded themselves into severe spiritual injury.

Let's assume that you confessed everything contrary to what your inner core comprehended as reality/experience. Well, what would that achieve? God knows everything about you ... no matter the frenzy of denial. After all, "The Spirit searches all things", (1Cor 2:10).

All these silly formulas that sincere Christians can be found following are very similar to witchcraft. I once knew a very genuine Christian who opened her Bible every morning and selected a verse with her finger on some random page and directed her entire day according to that result. This too is a form of magic or witchcraft.

Anyways, that's my opinion which is in keeping with: "These are the things you are to do: Speak the truth to each other", Zech 8:16

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Speaking the truth...
by spekgirl on 2012/7/5 2:59:02
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spekgirl Jul 5, 2012

Thank you thats helpful...i am finding more and more the truth of Gods Word being misused..i really need to look to God and His Word and not follow the crowd because im finding even well meaning christians believing and teaching half truths...we are in the last days the cloud of deception is growing thicker.
Bless you both thanks for helping me settle this in my mind.

M

mguldner Jul 5, 2012

I agree with you but do encourage balance. If you are having a rough day that's fine confess it, express it and ask the Lord for help and grace. But I have met people who are simply grumblers and complain about EVERYTHING! They have allowed a negative attitude to invade their hearts and minds and nothing seems fair or right to them. It is good to have a positive attitude but they asked you how you were you answered with an honest response.

Rather than critized you their response should have been is there anything we can help you with or pray for you about? We get so caught up in religion and being right we sometimes forget we are talking to human beings that have feelings too. Definitely be praying for your friends and their spiritual state, what they are in can lead to some pretty destructive thinking. I have seen a lot of people walk down that road and it ain't purdy.

L

Lysa Jul 5, 2012

spekgirl wrote:
Hey friends i have a question thats bugging me, i have been hearing alot lately from my brothers and sisters about to speak out in faith and be positive with words (maybe close to word of faith movement which i know is not correct) the other day two of my sisters in Christ asked me how i was and i was going through a hard time and i said "not very good" and they seemed to turn on me and tell me i had to speak out positive and say i was good, so one of them asked me again how i was and i answered and said i was not going to say i was good when i was not and lie... since then im having a hard time, where do we draw the line am i in the wrong, are we to only speak in faith and positive or are we able to speak the truth?

I agree with what everyone has told you and I just wanted to ‘amen’ Blaine on silly positive formulas are very similar to witchcraft! And Matthew’s response about they should have asked “why” you weren’t doing that well instead of criticizing you. Amen!

We “should be” able to speak the truth in love to our friends, even about what is going on in our life. And sadly, that just might be how you know who your “true” friends are from who your “religious” friends are. I’m sorry to say but your true ones will probably be in the minority in your life! Well, that’s what I've found in my life anyway but yours may very well be different! I hope so!

God bless you,
Lisa

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twayneb Jul 5, 2012

spekgirl: The Bible has much to say about faith, and what faith looks like. For example, James says that you may say you have faith but there are no corresponding works, but that I demonstrate my faith by my works because faith without works is dead. By way of application, suppose I am called by God to cease from my secular job and go into ministry full time. If I say I have faith that God will supply all of my needs, but do not really have faith, I will not quit my job. My works will correspond with the reality of my faith or lack thereof and demonstrate what is really on the inside of me. I once had this happen in the area of giving. I was told by God to give away a car and lacked the faith that He would give me another. So I ignored Him and later had to repent of disobedience.

The same is true of the words we speak. What comes out of our mouths is usually a dead give-away for what is in our hearts. A man may say he has faith, but then when I listen to his speech I realize he does not really believe God.

Another thing we must understand is that there is often a disparity between what is going on in our flesh and what is true in our spirit. If I am born again, my spirit is renewed, regenerated. So in my spirit I have the love, joy, and peace of God. But in my flesh I may be in turmoil, battling sickness, etc. Both of these things are true. So which one am I going to focus on and exalt? Which truth do I value the most?

I want to be careful how I say this so that I am not misunderstood. Faith is not a lever that we learn to work so that we can somehow move God. This viewpoint is, in my opinion, an error. The problem comes when we take one truth and go to seed on it so to speak. However we are also, I believe, misapplying scripture when we say that what we confess with our mouth does not influence our faith. What we say can reveal what is on the inside, but it can also influence what is going on in our heart and mind.

By example consider what happens when the enemy plants a vain imagination in your mind. So-and-so does not speak to you, and seems to snub you. You go home and the thought comes to your mind, "I'll bet she is mad at me. She sure treated me rudely." So you begin to speak to yourself, or perhaps a spouse or friend about so-and-so. The more you speak these words, the more you believe them and the more hurt and angry you become. What would have happened if you had spoken only the words that the Word of God says about that person? What would have happened if you had been thankful for so-and-so's friendship and had prayed for her? The attitude of your own heart would have been different. That is the effect of our words. They do not effect God, they effect our response to God.

Suppose I have a sickness and am standing in faith to receive healing from that sickness. No amount of vain repetition of promises, scriptures, etc. will somehow convince God to heal me (the lever error). However speaking only the Word of God over the issue will encourage me and help renew my mind to the truth that Jesus bore stripes so that I might be healed. My ability to respond positively to God is increased. My own faith level goes up. I encourage myself in the Word. This is what true "positive confession" should be about.

In your case, my guess is that these other people have taken a good thing and gone to seed on it. But it does not mean that we throw out the truth of speaking the Word of God. The fact is that you were not doing so good. There is nothing wrong with admitting that. The truth is that we can have the joy of the Lord and that He can heal, deliver, supply all needs, and fix whatever problem you are having. It is a good thing to confess that truth. I guess the way I like to see it is that truth (God's truth) changes fact (the true situation that I am going through).

Bear long with your friends. As antagonistic as they may have seemed, I would guess they did it because they love you. How about, "Sisters, I am going through a hard time right now, but I know that God will...insert the truth of the Word of God about the situation. Will you pray with me?"

The words we speak are not like magic incantations that somehow bring about an answer, but the words we speak are important because they have an effect on what we believe, what we focus on, and how we respond positively to God. The idea that speaking what is going on in your life will somehow "jinx" you is error. But it is true that if we focus on our problems and continue to speak only what we are going through, it will cause that thing to have a greater hold on our lives.

Hope that makes sense.

G

ginnyrose Jul 5, 2012

spekgirl,

You got good advice from these posters.

We live in the deep south where people are greeted with "how are you?" It does not mean they really care about how things are in your life but as a courteous greeting. If I say it and people start telling me all their woes, I will listen respectfully because I know they need a listener.

In any case, when I am asked how I am and things are tough and I do not want to talk about I will either say so or something to that effect.

Now to this 'positive thinking' mindset - it is nothing but a delusion, a deception. Many people engage in it in varying degrees. They can convince themselves they are going to heaven while entertaining sin in their hearts with no desire to repent ever.

Scripture teaches us to face reality and in so doing one will experience his/her need for God. Unless this is experienced in your heart you will never feel a need for Him. When you feel helpless to cope with life is when you are drawn to lay these issues at his feet for intervention or grace to deal with it. In other words, to ignore reality is to sell yourself short on experiencing the mercy and grace of God. Simple.

Take care..

ginnyrose

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lylewise Jul 5, 2012

I don't relate well to perfection, nor do most people. Therefore, I agree that we must be of the truth in our words. Isn't there something in scripture about God using the weak? Isn't there something in scripture about His power made perfect in our weakness? There is nothing wrong with being like Christ, there is however something wrong with being Christ a major error of the WFM.

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spekgirl Jul 6, 2012

Thank you all so very much, actually some of what you said got my thinking and it would not hurt me to be a bit more positive overall, its good to know however that i can speak the truth and i get a better idea now of how that all works... Jesus bless you all for your time and care to reply to me!

sermonindex Jul 6, 2012

No problem. Always let the Word of God be your defense and your stance. You'll get heat for it (even/especially from other believers), but that's what we were promised anyway, right?

J

joliboy11 Jul 6, 2012

I can relate to your situation, consider these:

and even Paul said, "as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing"

notice that Paul said that to encourage others who are suffering, but not all men seem to see this that's why Jesus said to the church in Laodicea:

Rev 3:17-18 Because you say, I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing, and do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
I counsel you to buy from Me gold purified by fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see.

Tell the truth, be honest, Paul is honest when they said ' as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing all things.'
because of the joy set before him...
what is 'positive' is not the truth, and 'positive' confessions cannot change the truth...
men are the one who need to change if we are in conflict with the truth

sermonindex Jul 6, 2012

The modern roots of this heresy are traced to E. W. Kenyon, though plagiarized by Kenneth Hagin who claims the fatherhood of it all. It's ancient roots are Babylonian, and are practiced in many pagan Priesthoods, fueled by transcendental meditation and the model of contemplative [inward] focused prayer, such as the Hindi Yoga's, the Tibetan Buddhist, or the Roman Catholic monasteries.

In this pattern, guided imagery and intense focus are used to get what you see and speak, even attain spiritual power. David Yonngi Cho of Korea teaches these same methods, visualization and such, to attain in the Material world what he speaks and desires. I have heard him teach here in America many years ago.

His most famous testimony is about the big red bicycle. He claims he visualized this to the T.; color and all, and as he saw it, and claimed it, it came to pass; he got it. He then began to visualize people, and today he sits on top of the largest "christian" cult in the world." This is a spirit; and an ungodly one. It is a fortress of doctrines that want you to believe that serving yourself as a god is why you exist.

Therefore as a god, what you speak and see and claim; You will be. It denies the cross of Jesus, and in some doctrinal ways, blatantly. The end of it is blasphemy, and following this cultic idea will lead one to Hell, not God.

Article below:

Now you are "Divine" you can "Name It And Claim It!".............The Christian Expositor

Clear Scripture passages are altered to fit the Word-Faith system to establish the believer as one who possesses the divine nature so that he can realize his "legal authority." With this realization comes the knowledge, power, and ability of God. Kenyon says you can "walk as Jesus walked, without any consciousness of inferiority to God or Satan" (The Hidden Man, p. 24).

Once the position of being "the same order of being as God" has been established, then it becomes necessary to demonstrate that this "re-created spirit" has unlimited power to create his own reality through positive confession. Capps in his publication, The Tongue - A Creative Force, explains:

"God's Word is spiritual law. It functions just as sure as any natural law. Words governed by spiritual law become spiritual forces working for you. Idle words work against you. ... The natural world is to be controlled by man speaking God's words" (p. 8-9) "You have to believe that those things that you say - everything that you say - will come to pass" (p. 24).

"Man was created in God's class. ... a spirit being, very capable of operating on the same level of faith as God. ...This is not theory. It is fact. It is spiritual law. It works every time it is applied correctly. To imitate God, you must talk like Him and act like Him" (p. 130-131). "The Word of God conceived in the heart, formed by the tongue, and spoken out of the mouth is creative power. ...The spoken Word will work for you as you continually confess it" (p. 148).
[ ignorant blasphemy.].................BT

The bedrock of Word-Faith doctrine is what Kenyon calls "new creation realities." For the rest of the Word-Faith assertions to work, man first must be exalted to a high position. Word-Faith teaching puts man on the same level as Jesus Christ.

This is done by assembling Scripture passages to purportedly prove that once a man is in Christ, then the "new creature" spoken of in 2 Corinthians 5:17 is recreated as a new species of being. Kenyon writes: "You see, man is a spirit being. He is in the same class with God. He was created in the image and likeness of God. He had to be in order to become a partaker of the Divine Nature. When he sinned he became a partaker of Satan's nature, selfishness. ...

The part of man that is re-created in [sic] his spirit. God imparts to our spirit His own nature, Eternal Life" (The Hidden Man, p.121).

When that happens one is "a new species of being that never existed before" (Kenneth Copeland, Now We Are In Christ Jesus, p. 5). Hagin says "the believer is as much an Incarnation as Jesus Christ" (Faith Food, p. 23). Kenneth Copeland says "Jesus is no longer the only begotten son of God" "Now We Are In Christ Jesus!"

p. 24). "We are the Word made flesh, just as Jesus was." (Gloria Copeland, quoted in Crenshaw, Man as God, 202). So, in the Word-Faith teaching, Jesus loses his uniqueness. The believer is elevated to the position of being a God-man the same way Jesus was a God-man.

They claim that the only difference is Jesus obtained his position by birth and the rest obtain it by a re-creation of the spirit. Read Isaiah 44:8: "Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any" (cf. Isaiah 43:10; John 1:18; John 5:44; John 17:3; James 2:19; 1 Timothy 2:5; Colossians 1:14-17; Hebrews 1:2-3).

What happened to the Blood Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ?

A further denial of the uniqueness of Jesus occurs in Word-Faith teachings on the atonement. According to their interpretation of Scripture, much more happened during Christ's crucifixion and death than is orthodox or Scriptural. "Jesus went into hell to free mankind. … When His blood poured out it did not atone." (Kenneth Copeland, quoted in McConnell, Different Gospel, 120).

"When [Jesus] said 'it is finished,' on that cross, He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. The plan of redemption had just begun. There was still three days and three nights to go through. ... [in hell], He suffered punishment for three horrible days and nights . . . "He's [Jesus] separated from His God and in that moment He's a mortal man: capable of failure, capable of death""

(Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, cassette tape). "Jesus died as our substitute. He who knew no sin was made to be sin. He took upon Himself our sin nature. And He died - He was separated and cut off from God. He went down into the prison house of suffering in our place. He was there three days and nights . . ."Not only was He physically resurrected - His body resurrected - but His spirit was made alive unto God again. He had died spiritually.

He took upon Himself spiritual death - for us. And He is the first one who was ever born again. His new birth is our new birth" (Kenneth Hagin, Made Alive, April 1982, p. 3). "He suffered in his own body, and more important, in His spirit. Jesus experienced the same spiritual death that entered man in the Garden of Eden [i.e., He took on Satan's nature]. ... After Jesus was made sin, He had to be born again.

Copied from this most excellent website...BT
http://www.thechristianexpositor.org/page7.html

.......I hope this helps; BT

sermonindex Jul 6, 2012

Are we to only speak in faith and positive or are we able to speak the truth?
Thanks for your advice.Spekgirl

"The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."

It is impossible to go through life without sorrow and suffering. It is not negative, or bad; it is just the way the Universe is for now. I think that some devout Christians suffer more in life than they experience happiness. Happiness is fleeting; it will come and go, but it is not the goal as we live our lives. The goal is to be conformed to the living image of God.

This goal has to do with a daily Denial of ourselves, as we follow Jesus, and to slay that evil nature within; NOT to act upon it,and it's various cravings to consume life for itself.

And He was saying to them all, “ If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me."

Sin exists, as does or satanic nature [ insert your name ]. We are commanded to overcome and endure. When you felt that pang to be honest to your friends, it was God convicting you to be honest. What they are doing is lying. It is not faith to lie about your situation. It is faith to believe God knows, and loves you in the midst of that situation, be it happy or sad. God leaves us Peace; which is above being happy or sad or sorrow.

Here is the Apostle John on Patmos. He has lost everything. All the Apostles have been slain, his best friends. He has no family, he is very old, and is living on an Island prison, probably in a hole in the ground.

I suspect that his diet was meager, and he would have liked a warm bed and a hot meal. He was alone,and solitary in his sorrow.

"I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus."

Tribulation:..grievous trouble; severe trial or suffering.
or.. an instance of this; an affliction, trouble, etc..wiki

Perseverance:..Steadfastness in doing something despite difficulty or delay in achieving success.
..or Continuance in a state of grace leading finally to a state of glory.

Yet, John had the Kingdom. His body and soul were indeed Earthbound, but his spirit was born from above, and that is where he rested. He had put on the mind of Christ. This is true faith.

We could translate this confession of John like this.

"I am your brother, John. I am undergoing severe trial and suffering and affliction here, as I know you are too. I also have been given strength to endure, and I am steadfast in Jesus' hope also, as I know you are too, for we are together under His strength in His Kingdom. I know that for both of us, or continuance in this faith will lead us to glory with him forever."

It had nothing to do with happiness or well being, it had everything to do with enduring whatever came his way to glorify his Master, and to be changed inside to please him.

This must be our faith confession, all the way, and the harder days will come.

"Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me.

These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace.
In the world you have tribulation,
...but take courage;
I have overcome the world.”..Jesus of Nazareth