Some Thoughts on Romans 7 and 8

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pilgrim777 Jul 8, 2012

Paul concluded Romans 7 by saying, "So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin," vs 25. After all the self-effort to the flesh, the flesh was still under the law of sin. No amount of Law applied would change this fact, the flesh would always be flesh. One must go into chapter 8 to see God's remedy for the "wretched man".

Some may wonder (and do) if this is an autobiograpy of Paul before or after he met Jesus? The answer is very simple, this chapter describes a man, saved or unsaved, who is looking to the Law to break the power of sin over him. The Law is the way of self-effort and human will-power. Paul knew the reality of the flesh and faced squarely his failure to overcome the flesh through the Law.

Chapter 7 shows two laws working in man, the law of sin that rules in the flesh, and the law of God working in the mind of man. Now we come to chapter 8 where we have a new law which is the Law of the Spirit. This law springs forth from the life in Christ Jesus and comes forth as a governing principle for those joined to Christ (7:4). Grace is not without its restraint and power to deal with sin.

Chapter 7 deals with man and the Law. The word "I" predominates, being used 28 times, the word "law" occurs 20 times, but the Holy Spirit is not mentioned one time from verse 7 on. Here is the reason for the dismal failure of man. In chapter 8, the scene changes as one comes into the law of the Spirit and finds a power that governs the life in Christ Jesus.

The Law of the Spirit is the law of life found in Christ Jesus. Remember the power of sanctification comes from the life in Him.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

eleutheroo - to free, set free. Literally, this word is used of slaves SET FREE.
This verb is in the aorist tense which speaks of point action, an event that HAS occurred. All dominion of sin and death is broken.

The "wretched man" has found power that has set him free from the bondage of the flesh (7:24).

This FREEDOM has come "through Christ Jesus our Lord," 7:25.

Another LAW has come by the Spirit. Here sin and death are each referred to as a law.

Conclusion: God as provided freedom from the law of sin and death by His Spirit.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ did that which the Law could not do (8:3).

The law was powerless to break the power of sin and it was weak because of the flesh. Literally, the law was weakened astheneo) by the flesh. The law was powerless to deal with sin in the flesh.

So, God made provision for Man's Deliverance from the FLESH.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

God sent His son in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. Meaning, Jesus was man, He came in the likeness of the flesh of sin. In other words, He came in the flesh of man, but sin did not live in Him.
Christ through His flesh condemned sin in the flesh.

Condemn - katakrino - condemn to death

God has brought forth the condemnation of death from sin in the flesh. Christ in the flesh has brought forth the death of sin in the flesh. The tense of the verb is aorist which denotes it happened at a particular point in time past.

God's provision for sinful flesh was His own Son coming in the flesh. He judged sin to death so that we might be free. The result: We "do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit," vs. 4.

The Law of the Spirit of Life has brought the one "In Christ" into a new WALK, vs. 4.

Those who walk according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit," vs. 5.

One must set his mind on the things of the Spirit to walk according to the Spirit. The mind set on the flesh brings death, vs. 6. The mind set on the Spirit brings life and peace,vs. 6.

So, those who are walking according to the Spirit "are putting to death the deeds of the body. The deeds of the body refer to the acts of the flesh. By the Spirit the acts of the flesh are put to death.

If Christ is in you the body is dead because of sin, vs. 10. This describes the state of the sanctified who no longer lives according to the flesh. Sin is no longer operative in the body, but this does not mean that the flesh does not exist or cannot be revived. It does mean the flesh is out of commission while one walks according to the Spirit. (Gal 5:16).

In Christ, the believer is under no obligation to walk according to the flesh, vs. 12.

The flesh holds no strings on the believer. He is free.Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death;

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:

The flesh is NOT able to come under the law of God.

Those in the flesh cannot please God.

Conclusion: The believer has a choice: If he sets his mind on the flesh the power of death begins to work; if he sets his mind on the things of the Spirit, the power of life in Christ becomes his. So in dealing with the flesh he has a choice. There are two different spheres in which he may walk. The sphere of the flesh is the sphere of the natural man; to walk in the sphere of the Spirit is to walk in life. Through the body of Christ one is now free to walk in the Spirit with no obligation whatsoever to the flesh.

Further in Romans 8:14-17, for the first time the word "son" is found in the book of Romans. Here we notice a progression of truth, having discovered the liberty of the Spirit to live free of the flesh, he now discovers that "those who are being led by the Spirit, these are the sons of God," vs. 14. Not only free from sin, but placed before God as sons. Hallelujah!!

The consciousness of sonship comes as one begins to walk in the Spirit. One is to have his "mind set on the Spirit," and develop a consciousness of the Spirit of God who indwells him (vv. 9,11). As he enters this walk he will come to know the rest which belongs to the sons of God.

Pilgrim

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roadsign Jul 8, 2012

The flesh is NOT able to come under the law of God.

Questions to consider:

1) How is the above statement to be distinguished from some of the historical belief systems such as Gnosticism, Manichaeism, neoplatism, etc.... the idea that matter is evil as compared to the immaterial?
2) Is this what Romans 7 actually says?
3) How does it square with 1 Thes. 5:23?

“May God himself, the God of peace sanctify you THROUGH AND THROUGH. [in other word:] May your whole spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

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Elibeth Jul 8, 2012

Good morning !

I find the SECRET is,....Love.

Loving God with all our hearts, with all our souls, with all our minds, and with all our strength,IS the key, and the answer.

* and to love God,is to Love His / the Word ...

Thoughts: maybe do a study on:
Heart
Soul
Mind
Strength

Because:
When we have come into Christ,...we have come into,the RENEWING
of our minds,which is reflected in our hearts.....and not only in our hearts,
But also in our walk.

In other words, we still have a 'will',...but the Lord has given us a Precious gift,...the Power over our 'will' in order to do His 'will'..And for that, arn't
we SO thankful ?

And to this I only find one conclusion,...and that is to 'Walk in the Spirit'

With all my love,
elizabeth

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Blayne Jul 8, 2012

Hi! Pilgrim777

Ummm, the first thing I thought of when reading this Thread was the wonderful way which the adjacent Comments of others can be so suitable to the discussion too.
For instance, Elizabeth wrote: "I find the SECRET is ... Love". Further on she added, "Because when we have come into Christ ... we have come into,the RENEWING of our minds,which is reflected in our hearts ... and not only in our hearts, but also in our walk".

Like yourself, I too enjoy a line-by-line exegesis of Scripture when someone is attempting to make a particular point. (Especially one as difficult as this subject).
But it's only been recently that I've been learning that some people can say things in a very simplistic manner that can hold so much meaning while it might possibly escape notice by persons who prefer the line-upon-line discussions.
Anyways, I just thought I'd throw that in because I was thinking about it just now.

The Spirit of Life permeates everything in both the visible world and invisible world. Of course, this is to be expected because the Spirit of Life originates from the Origin of Life Himself.
Every living thing and creature is created and sustained by the Spirit of Life.
For instance, every human body possesses immunization from disease; also the intrinsic ability to heal and recover itself. This is a function of the Spirit of Life in the visible world.

The Spirit of Life also functions in the invisible world; the Kingdom of Heaven. When functioning correctly, it contains the power to assist man to become immune from the influence of darkness; from the law of Sin and Death. This is what enables every Christian to answer YES to the question of Jesus, "Would you be perfect?".

It's rather astonishing that many Christians have no difficulty believing that Jesus is able to heal and restore their outer man but have great difficulty believing that He can restore and heal their inner man too.
After all, Salvation encompasses the body, soul and spirit.
The very same power (Spirit of Life) which is capable of making us perfectly healthy in our physical being is also capable of making us perfectly healthy (restored) in our spiritual being.

Thanks for your Post.

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Some Thoughts on Romans 7 and 8
by pilgrim777 on 2012/7/8 0:08:19
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pilgrim777 Jul 8, 2012

Questions to consider:
1) How is the above statement to be distinguished from some of the historical belief systems such as Gnosticism, Manichaeism, neoplatism, etc.... the idea that matter is evil as compared to the immaterial?
2) Is this what Romans 7 actually says?
3) How does it square with 1 Thes. 5:23?
“May God himself, the God of peace sanctify you THROUGH AND THROUGH. [in other word:] May your whole spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Hi Diane,

Paul is talkin about the Law of Sin in the Flesh. It is not controlled or regulated by the law of God. Not even when he (Paul) added his will power to the Law of God, could he counteract the law of sin.

Law of Sin = Lawlessness and refuses limitations.

"Don't eat of the tree" = Law
Covetousness - refuses limitations

Man through creeds, laws and commandments will never overcome sin. That is where the Law (although holy) failed and why we need Jesus Christ and His Spirit.

We need a new Law - the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

Paul is not saying the physical body is evil and neither am I. This is not what Romans 7 is saying.

Pilgrim

sermonindex Jul 8, 2012

Found this excerpt by Ray stedman
The third major thing that Paul says is that a provision has been made for victory. The law of the Spirit of life, which is in Christ Jesus, will set you free from the law of sin and death, which is in your members. That is why Paul cries, "Thanks be to God -- through our Lord Jesus Christ!" (Romans 7:25a NIV). This law of the Spirit of life is your faith in what God has already said he has done for you in Christ. He has cut you off, made you a different creature, brought you into Christ, and married you to him -- you are not any longer the same man.

When we are failing, and angry with ourselves, our natural way of thinking about ourselves is something like this: "I'm a mess, a hopeless, helpless mess! Why can't I do what I want to do? Why can't I stop this thing that is hurting me so, and hurting others, too?" You are all wrapped up in your own feelings and you think you deserve to be whipped and punished and cast into hell.

At that point God says to you, "What is wrong is your view of yourself. That is not what you are; that is only a temporary delusion to which you are giving yourself over. The truth is, you have been cut free. You are married to Christ. Your human spirit has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit and it cannot sin. It has not sinned and does not sin. Now, you yourself, as a person, have been deceived by the sin in your flesh, and it has taken over and has gotten you into this difficulty. But that is not who you are. Don't believe that about yourself anymore. There is a fresh provision of the forgiveness of God and the righteousness of Christ waiting for you. You are in Christ -- this is who you are. Take his forgiveness, believe it, thank God for it, and go on, and know that your struggle has ended." That is why Paul says in Galatians 5:17, "They [the Spirit and the flesh] are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want," (Galatians 5:17b NIV).

Of course this does not mean that God has ended the reign of the flesh in our lives. It is still there. The law of sin and death, like the law of gravity, goes on working all the time. But the moment you believe what Jesus Christ says is true about you, and you believe what he has done for you, a new law comes in. This new law is stronger than the law of sin and death; it even uses that law to accomplish its end.

When I was a boy, I discovered that there was a law at work in my members that was affecting my eyesight. It was what I later learned to call the law of myopia, which is nearsightedness. It was in my members, right in my eyes, so that I could not see what other people could see. Finally, I went to a doctor about it, and he told me that I had a law in my members that was constantly working and it affected my eyesight so that I could not see what others saw. Then I discovered a new law, the law of contact lenses -- two little pieces of plastic which I could put in my eyes every morning and they would keep working all day long. All I had to do was put them in. They did not eliminate the law of myopia -- they actually used it. But the result was that I saw perfectly, with 20/20 vision. Now, if I got cocky and decided I didn't need those contact lenses anymore ("I can handle this situation without them!") and took them out -- immediately the law of myopia would take over and I would have the same old problem again. But if I put the lenses in, the law of contact lenses would cancel out -- overcome -- the law of myopia, and I could see perfectly.

That is what Paul is telling us here. God has given us a new image of ourselves. We are not what we feel we are. As a result of that, we can be set free anytime we employ that law, anytime that we, by faith, reckon that what God says is true and we begin to see ourselves that way. The fourth major point that Paul makes in this brief paragraph is given in Verses 3 and 4. It is a review of the basis for victory:

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by our sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man[flesh] to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the sinful man[the flesh], in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to our sinful nature but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8:3-4 NIV)

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pilgrim777 Jul 8, 2012

Some good thoughts from LeePadah and Blayne. Thanks for your contributions. I re-read my posts and noticed that my keyboard is acting up. I have corrected and completed many of the incomplete words. My apologies.

Pilgrim

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AbideinHim Jul 8, 2012

"Some may wonder (and do) if this is an autobiograpy of Paul before or after he met Jesus? The answer is very simple, this chapter describes a man, saved or unsaved, who is looking to the Law to break the power of sin over him. The Law is the way of self-effort and human will-power. Paul knew the reality of the flesh and faced squarely his failure to overcome the flesh through the Law."

Brother,

I appreciate you sharing with us on Romans 7 and 8. At lunch today a group of us were discussing Romans 7 and going over the classic debate on whether or not Paul is talking about an unsaved man or one that has been born again, and I brought up the exact same point that you do in your post. The unregenerated man that is trying to live the Christian life will most certainly find himself in the Romans 7 scenario, but this also applies to the Christian that is not living by the grace of God but is trying to please God through self effort in his own strength. A Christian will constantly struggle with sin and not be able to overcome until they have seen that there is no good thing in their flesh and deliverance only comes through faith in Jesus Christ. "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death."

Mike

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pilgrim777 Jul 8, 2012

Ahhh, that's great Mike. All born-again people begin in the Spirit, and the Enemy has many schemes to derail us and get us to "perfect" ourselves in the flesh.

I don't know if anyone has caught this in Galatians 3:3. But Paul is implying that you can only be made perfect by the Spirit because he is asking the Galatians why they think they can be made perfect by the flesh.

Gal_3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

God sets the bar high - His standard is His Son and He wants us to know that there is nothing that should keep us captive or in bondage if we have the Holy Spirit. Nothing!

Paul knew that and still could say:
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Pilgrim

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proudpapa Jul 8, 2012

Amen
Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ

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pilgrim777 Jul 8, 2012

I just added a bit more to my previous post.

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Elibeth Jul 8, 2012

May the Great Grace of God abound more and more,unto us all !

I was reading the Devotional by Basilia Sclink, that Greg posted yesterday,
(7-7-12) and thought it so appropriate for our conversation here.
I am working from my iPad,and know-not how to copy or paste.

Maybe,....would someone please bring it up here ?

Continueing on,

elizabeth