An Alarm Unheeded | SermonIndex

sermonindex Jul 14, 2012

Saints I feel I am the sole voice raising a concern about this issue in Phoenix. And no one seems the least bit concerned. Those who have responded said simply the brother is in rebellion. So let him go to jail and pay the fine and we go back to our dreamy bubble.

Does anybody not get the implication of what is going on here?. A Bible study was shut down. Not in China or Iran. But in America. Yeah, there were some code violations. But saints it was a Bible study. Why the use if SWAT tactics against code violations.? Why an excessive fine and 60 days in jail for the Bible study leader?

What is troubling about this incident is it is a frequent pattern of things happening across America. In California a couple was fined for having a Bible study in their home. The town of Gilbert AZ has banned Bibke studies in their corporate limits. Across the nation Bibles are not permitted in schools. And in some cases in the work place. It was posted a dew weeks ago a police chaplain could not pray in the name of Jesus. Do we not see what is happening here.

Ok. This is not a glamerous contro thread. Persecution never is. But saints let us be aware if what is going on here. Ok. Back to the gap theory.

Bearmaster.

T

Trekker Jul 14, 2012

I believe the word you meant in your headline is spelled
"unheeded". I dont think the story has gone unheeded. From what i have been told, the man built a large building in his backyard to hold the Bible studies in and violated building codes and/or did not have a building permit. That is not an attack on Bible studies or Christianity, that is just the man disobeying the law who happens to be a practicing Christian.

P

proudpapa Jul 14, 2012

Hi Bear, I am reminded of a book I read by Harvey Yoder, A true story of Mikhail Khorev a Christian Russian during the WW2 Soviet Union, That is How they start, Just making ordinances and small Rules making the Churches regester with the State and than making one State Church where they implant the Preachers.
Those who have Bible studies or preach outside of that setting go to Jail. It just got worse and worse, His Dad died in Prison for being a Christian But compromising Christians just change with the system.

edit (PS get the book and notice how the soviets start with codes and ordinances and things just get worse from there)

good book
http://www.amazon.com/Small-Price-Pay-Harvey-Yoder/dp/1885270518

sermonindex Jul 14, 2012

Saints I feel I am the sole voice raising a concern about this issue in Phoenix. And no one seems the least bit concerned. Those who have responded said simply the brother is in rebellion. So let him go to jail and pay the fine and we go back to our dreamy bubble.
Does anybody not get the implication of what is going on here?. A Bible study was shut down. Not in China or Iran. But in America. Yeah, there were some code violations. But saints it was a Bible study. Why the use if SWAT tactics against code violations.? Why an excessive fine and 60 days in jail for the Bible study leader?

Dear Brother,

I have been considering this more and do agree with you it is not black and white there is a precedent being set here and this issue has been very public. There is cause for concern, I do believe the urgency also of the upcoming conference on persecution is well suited with this issue: http://sermonindex2012.eventbrite.ca/

May God prepare His Church.

M

mama27 Jul 14, 2012

This has not gone unheeded with me either....but the attacks are coming so fast and furiously on both a national and personal front. I am just weary....very, very weary of the countless things that have come into my life to be concerned about and to pray about....all things concerning the Kingdom. It is like many prayer requests that are posted on this site....sometimes one just doesn't have the time to respond...but that doesn't mean people aren't praying, nor has this issue gone unnoticed. It is grievous - violations of code or not.....

T

TMK Jul 14, 2012

From Rom 13:

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

Love Your Neighbor
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness, “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

P

proudpapa Jul 14, 2012

Hi TMK you brought up Romans 13, what has always puzzled me is this is Paul writing, How is it believed Paul Died? Whom is it believed took Pauls Life?? just some thoughts that come to mind when I read this chapter.

T

TMK Jul 14, 2012

The ruling authorities took Paul's life.

The situation in AZ, in my mind is far different than say the situation in China. In China it is ILLEGAL to be a Christian. Since we must obey man rather than God they have no choice but to go against the law and meet secretly.

In AZ, it is not illegal to be a Christian. It IS illegal to violate building and zoning codes, etc. Further, the neighbors have made it plain to this man that they are not happy about all the traffic etc on their street every weekend.

So instead of "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you" and putting his neighbor's own interests at least on an equal par with his own, he is rebellious and refuses to follow the law or make peace with his neighbors.

I'm sorry, but that is just a bad testimony. If his gathering is that large it is time to rent a space.

What if the people meeting on this man's property was a coven of witches, or nudists? Would we feel differently?

T

Trekker Jul 14, 2012

QUOTE: "In AZ, it is not illegal to be a Christian. It IS illegal to violate building and zoning codes, etc. Further, the neighbors have made it plain to this man that they are not happy about all the traffic etc on their street every weekend."==TMZ

Exactly. And he is bringing shame on Christ and Christianity by doing so.

sermonindex Jul 14, 2012

"Exactly. And he is bringing shame on Christ and Christianity by doing so."...Trekker

With civilization and progress comes building codes, probably for 1000s of years; To have streets and sewage, and protection from sweeping fires etc.

It would not have mattered a bit if this man was a Mormon, a JW, or a Muslim; he wanted to build a church house on his property in a resedential zone. [ 2000 sq. feet ]. He was warned repeatedly by city officials to cease this meeting in this building, as it was unsafe according to city law, and was not zoned commercial to handle the traffic. He scoffed at the city officials, citing Free Religion.

He was still allowed a smaller meeting within his home. He refused, and chose to oppose the city counsel, enraging them. The prosecutor wanted to give him a few YEARS in prison, for his insolence. He cried "WOLF!; Oh! I am persecuted!" He was not. He was simply found guilty of a crime .

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

Therefore whoever resists [ this ambitious preacher ] the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
[ 90 days and a several thousand dollar fine].

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority?

Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same."

Yes, there is real persecution out there from the anti-Christ spirits who despise the Word of God against those who carry it, and proclaim it. This incident and this man do not apply.

sermonindex Jul 14, 2012

Saints I agree with Greg's observation that this case is not as black and white as it is made out to br. There is no denying Michael Salmon violated building codes and is paying the price. So it can be argued that he has blasphemed the name of God among the gentiles. It can be argued that he has been a stumbling block to the gospel. Ok. Valid points. But can we look at the other side of the case.

The man is a Christian. At least evidenced by the fact that he was holding Bible studies in his home. Or on his property a separate structure. He also had a cross in his front yard. The studies or church services must gave been popular. People were coming to them. For all we know people were being saved and coming to cross. Now the rub. People started to complain. About the traffic. About the noise. Ebo do you think was complaining? Well it was not the believers but the unbelievers. Probably because what this brother was doing was offending them.. I mean his message of Christ.

My guess is the city of Phoenix is sending a message. The message is Christians will not be tolerated in this city unless we control them. Now some may say Bear that is extreme. Christianity is legal. One can be a Christian and not be arrested or persecuted. But for how long?

Saints please consider. A couple is fined San Juan Capistrano for holding a Bible study in their home. The same reasoning was used. Code violations. In this case no complaints from neighbors. It was only after media attention and the threat ot a law suit the city backed down.

Pleases consider. They city ot Gilbert AZ has told a local church they cannot have home meetings. The church has a limited budget and can only afford to meet on Sunday. So they meet in homes. Gilbert says such meetings violate land use. Though code officers promise to revisit the code.

I am sure there are other incidents as these stories have been popping up in other parts of the country with greater frequency. But the two I cited above are the mist recent examples.

If the Phoenix example were an isolated event then maybe we would say yeah. The bro is out of line. But set against the backdrop of an antichrist spirit and these other reports coming in from other parts of the country, there should be cause for concern. There does appear to be a systematic discrimination against Christian in America.

Saints please consider the hostile environment we live in. One can no longer carry a Bible to school or reference it in the public classroom. One can no longer pray in school. Let alone pray in Jesus name. One cannot speak out against homosexuality or Islam without being labeled a hate monger. And subject to prosecution under the hate crimes law.

I could go on. But those of you who live. in N. America know what I am talking about. No the governments of Canada and the U S have not declared Christianity to be illegal. But there is a marginalization of Christians in N. America. A marginalization that leads to discrimination. Discrimination that leads to persecution. Then prison and martyrdom. This appeared to be the pattern against Jews in Germany prior to WWll.

Saints I am not trying to defend this brother in Phoenix. He did violate building code. But before we judge him too harshly. Let us consider that America is in a hostile environment as concerns the things of Christ. I am only asking that you evaluate the Phoenix event in light of what we are living in today.

We cannot escape the reality of persecution. Godly men such as Art Katz and Denny Kenniston have warned us of its coming to our shores. Indeed some would say it is here. Let us pray that the SI conference will awaken and prepare us to its reality.

For the cause of Jesus,

Breaux Bear.

sermonindex Jul 14, 2012

Had the man been a Muskem, the city would not have bothered him. Phoenix probably would have given him a tax break and financial aid to build a mosque. Moslems are being given much favor in many American cities.

Bearmaster.

R

rbanks Jul 14, 2012

Bearmaster,

Did you read brothertom's post?

Pray for this man and his fellowship to do the the right and godly thing and quit judging and accusing the city officials for doing their job.

Enough said, we are christian's and we are suppose to live above reproach. We are not to let our good be evil spoken of. We are suppose to obey those that have the authority over us.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

G

ginnyrose Jul 14, 2012

To have a building where one can go for corporate worship is so very nice. It can keep one warm when it is cold outside, or it can keep us cool when it is stinking hot out; or it will protect us from the rain, wind and snow. Very nice. What a wonderful blessing.

But you know what? Jesus never promised his followers they would have a structure to meet in. Nor did he give the disciples plans on how to design or build one. Instead Paul - through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - says our bodies are the temple of the living God. It is this temple we should be concerned about.

If the day will come where one cannot meet in a building, it will not be the end of the church - it will just be the end of enjoying some creature comforts that we have had for so long.

What about meeting in the woods or a cave or a barn? I would guess a meeting of this sort would do a lot to prove our faith then ... you name it.

G

ginnyrose Jul 14, 2012

Oh, and another thing...

In recent years I have taught VBS, having teen-aged girls in my class. Would you know they were much better behaved when our class was held in the woods behind our air-conditioned church house?

Think about that...

N

NMatheson Jul 14, 2012

I agree completely with Ginny. We certainly will face ridicule and persecution. It would be painfully ignorant of us to expect safety when 3/4ths (roughly) of the world face it with severity.

It is a sad thing to witness all of this happening. In my life personally I have grown so used to everything being okay. Today I would say half the good friends I have had have fallen away, carried off by strange doctrine and a rejection of sin. It's hit me like a brick in the face. I realize the seriousness of it and I try to make a point in prayer to ask God to guide me with the Holy Spirit, and to bring back my loved ones.

There are several things we will always have. The Church, and a God who listens and provides are among them. We know that we are headed for dark times. A time when we may need to fellowship secretly. But the church is not the building we meet in; It is the people. The body of Christ. We must never forget that.

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Jul 14, 2012

Very good points, Sister ginnyrose!

I think back to my trips to the Tarahumara tribes deep in the Sierra Madre Occidental in Chihuahua, Mexico. Before a building was built for them, the Church there met together beneath the shade of a tree. Some of the most wonderful meetings that I have ever attended were with believers under trees, in caves or just outside.

Several years ago, I attended a home Bible study with a group of believers. One of the ladies who attended the meeting was an immigrant from El Salvador. When she was a teenager, she migrated from El Salvador to the United States. Her journey was long and hard and punctuated by moments of horror. She married (and later divorced) an American man and is now a permanent resident of the country.

During this Bible study, the leader asked if we take our church "creature comforts" for granted. He mentioned the persecution of the early church and ongoing economic status and persecution of believers around the world. He asked what all of us would do if our church building didn't have pads upon the pews, microphones, musical instruments or air conditioning.

Oddly enough, the only person who admitted that she wouldn't fellowship there was this woman from El Salvador. During the ride home, this woman was adamant that God had "freed" her from poverty and wouldn't go back to it. I was caught off guard by her comments; however, I think that it goes to show how "comfortable" we can become in Zion if we aren't careful.

In one of his messages, David Wilkerson stated how the luxuries of yesterday always have a tendency of becoming the necessities of today. Things that were once thought of as "luxuries" -- such as a telephone, indoor plumbing, hot/cold water, automobiles, air conditioning -- are now considered "necessities" just a few decades later.

As you reminded us, a building is not required for the Church to corporately fellowship. It is just a luxury. It is nice to have, but a group of believers can fellowship and worship beneath the shade of a tree just as easily as they can in a fancy air-conditioned building or home.

I am praying about this situation in Phoenix. I suspect that this man in Phoenix and the rest of the gathering will find another place to fellowship with one another until this situation is resolved by the various governing authorities who will work either for him or against him. Yet, as NMatheson pointed out, there are many people in this world who face persecution and ridicule much more severe than a zoning dispute.