Apostos--Rapture or falling away of the church? 2 Thes:

During our Wednesday Night services, our pastor has, much to the delight of my wife and I, began a study of Revelation chapter by chapter. We're lovin' it. At any rate, last night, we were going through Revelation 6 and to preface all the horrors that were being revealed, especially the first seal (anti-Christ), the pastor showed us several places in the Bible where it tells that Christians will be raptured before any of this happens.One verse he went to threw me for a loop.2 Thessalonians 2:3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;There, the "falling away", our pastor pointed out, that many believe that is speaking of apostasy in the church...a falling away from the truth. The original Greek for that phase is apostos or something like that...can't remember exactly what, BUT!!Pastor Cowling pointed out that the actual meaning of that word is akin to "a departure" or a LEAVING.Basically, interpreting the verse to meaning that these things will not take place until after...THE DEPARTURE (rapture).Very interesting. It is, perhaps, as my wife suggested, simply that the verse is MEANT to have a dual-meaning, or maybe, if the pastor is right alone, are we looking for growing apostasy in the church where there will be none? (Frankly, I think there obviously IS, but whatever...)Just wondered at some of the more advanced takes on this interpretation of scripture.

Yes, Revelations is very interesting. A couple of weeks ago we read all of Revelations out loud with everyone in the congregation participating. The Holy Spirit quickened some portions of the scripture as He often does. It was a blessed evening.As to your question, I'm not a pastor and it's an interesting question you posed. Personally I don't use commentaries that much because I want to be reliant on the Holy Spirit more than reliant on someone else's interpretation but sometimes they're helpful. Here's what Adam Clarke said about this verse. "Except there come a falling away first] We have the original word apostasia in our word apostasy; and by this term we understand a dereliction of the essential principles of religious truth - either a total abandonment of Christianity itself, or such a corruption of its doctrines as renders the whole system completely inefficient to salvation. But what this apostasy means is a question which has not yet, and perhaps never will be, answered to general satisfaction."I think your pastor could be correct and I don't claim to know. I used to be into all the "pre-trib" stuff and frankly I don't believe it any more for a whole host of reasons.I believe there is already a great falling away, at least in the United States and the evidence of that manifestation is very clear. So the apostasy appears to me to be very real at present. Here's some verses for you to ponder as well.Don't be fooled by what they say.For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed--the one who brings destruction.Footnote: Greek the son of destruction.New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust NKJV - 2Th 2:3 - Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson NASB - 2Th 2:3 - Let no one in any way deceive you, for {it will not come} unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation RSV - 2Th 2:3 - Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition,Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952. Webster - 2Th 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Noah Webster Version 1833 Info Young - 2Th 2:3 - let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info Darby - 2Th 2:3 - Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info ASV - 2Th 2:3 - let no man beguile you in any wise: for [it will not be,] except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,American Standard Version 1901 Info HNV - 2Th 2:3 - Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info

It is my understanding that this "departure" happened long ago, beginning even while Paul was still there in the assemblies, really fleshing out when "christendom" was formed (state church), growing into our present "form(s)", and possibly even culminating in something worse (possibly not). I guess it could get much worse but apostate is apostate, whatever its outward skeleton. I believe the loaf is fully leavened with the woman's leaven.The Lord has warned me about looking ahead for things that are behind. Or about looking with the wrong set of "eyes."

I do say that this subject is one of great error.Friends, from what the Holy Spirit has shown me, the conception of a pre-tribulation rapture is without question unscriptural. Firstly, I do want to let it be known that I am not about to go into this in detail, time permitting, but simply to add a few points.The worst place to start studying end time prophecy is the book of Revelation. The best places to start is Daniel and the three accounts of the Olivette Discourse in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Find out what Jesus says about it. Then consider Paul's letters to the Thessalonians.The pre-rapture theory is not an ancient phenomenon either, but began only 150 years ago or so when a lady had a vision about it. Prior to that, this idea had not even be considered.Also, this idea is a strictly North American view and you won't find pre-tribulation believers in other parts of the world except for those places influenced by our missionaries, etc.So, all I am saying is study the Scriptures, pray for understanding, and consider that the pre-rapture concept may be nothing more than, as Micah 2:11 describes, pillow prophet prophecy!Believe me, when Jesus comes there will be nothing secret about it, and he will come and destroy destroy anti-Christ and deliver he faithful bride into his glorious presence!Revelation 1:7 - "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

I agree with your take on this and it's very similar to what the Holy Spirit has shown me as well. The bigger question we have to ask ourselves "Am I ready if Jesus came back today?" Am I sold out to Him and is that evident in my daily life?

I would recommend a letter written by Corrie Ten Boom written in 1974....http://www.baldpreachers.net/corrieletter1. When has it been typical of God's character to remove his people from persecution? And is he able to keep us from His wrath, while we live in the midst of it?2. Jesus also spoke of false prophets deceiving many, and the anti-christ would even deceive the elect, if possible. The letter will help show the ramifications of this type of theology, but I do assure you there will be eternal damage b/c of it.

Let me clear up something about us Pre-tribers (Yes I am one and I do believe it's scriptural and just like my brother on the other side of the table I don't want to debate it). There is not the thought for one moment that the Rapture, as taught by Pre-tribers, will be secret, quite the contrary. Do I believe in a Pre-trib rapture? Yes, Secret Rapture? No and neither do any Pre-tribers that I know of. :-) In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

Yes i agree with jeremy. How would a large number of people disapearing off of the earth be secret?

I agree with your take on this and it's very similar to what the Holy Spirit has shown me as well. And me as well. I think for me, what is really troubling is that one of today's main teachers of this doctrine "fudges" facts concerning the historical teaching of a pretrib rapture. He will quote "out of context" one early church writing to support his assertion that pre-trib was taught in the early church. I find any type of dishonesty extremely troubling in the Body of Christ. If something is "truth", then the validity of it will stand. Just my two cents... :-) In Him, Cindy

The following quote is from Katz's Apostolic ManifestoThis is intrinsic to apostolic comprehension of what the church is. The church that fits the description I have given will itself comprehend and recognize its calling toward the restoration of Israel in her last days’ tribulation. It will certainly dismiss any thought that it is going to be raptured away at the time when its presence is most radically required, for its presence means salvation for Jews in their soon-coming “time of Jacob’s trouble.” This is not an appendage for the church; it is central and primary to the church’s own consideration of itself and what its purposes are in God.Personally, I could never grasp the fact that God would pull out all the christians, when their needed most. But that's just me.

Personally, I could never grasp the fact that God would pull out all the christians, when their needed most. But that's just me.It's not just you Aaron, by any means! :-)

This is intrinsic to apostolic comprehension of what the church is. The church that fits the description I have given will itself comprehend and recognize its calling toward the restoration of Israel in her last days’ tribulation. It will certainly dismiss any thought that it is going to be raptured away at the time when its presence is most radically required, for its presence means salvation for Jews in their soon-coming “time of Jacob’s trouble.” This is not an appendage for the church; it is central and primary to the church’s own consideration of itself and what its purposes are in God.I think when anyone understands that the Body of Christ IS The Church (Eph. 1:22-23)----they would understand that we cannot be removed, because up until the second coming of Jesus in Glory, there WILL be additions to the Body of Christ (II Pet. 3:9, James 5:7, Eph. 1:10).Also, something in regard to what Art Katz said above: The Lord brought my attention to Rom. 11:29-32 quite a long time ago. Maybe I'm seeing more than is there but I found this interesting in verse 31: THROUGH the mercy extended to us, the Jew will also receive mercy. There is such a ONENESS in that passage, pure unity in the purposes of God. It is not an "us" and "them" thing, which I believe the Lord wants us to understand. I believe the endtime saint will be used to bring in the fulness of the Body of Christ, not be removed and spared from tribulation. As His Word says, all will come to Him in His perfect timing......and His ways are so above our own. Blessings, Cindy

It's not just you Aaron, by any means! My position on this may be a bit simple; but why not just be ready for whatever happens? If it be rapture so be it. If it be persecution, be ready for it. Too much stock in a pre trib position tends to keep folk unprepared. Some are said to be so pretrib that they will not eat Post Toasties (thats an American breakfast cereal). i talked to an elderly gentleman who said to me about a month ago that he had no concern about persecution because he was going up in the Rapture. I spent about 15 minutes recounting a few stories from John Foxe that he never heard of. That is my real concern; folk are not ready to suffer.

Very nice discussion, and one I find a lot of difference in thought. However, one of the points that was made, stating that we should always be ready and waiting for Christ's return is very true.Also, sermonindex.com is a great resource, it has convicted my heart with its sermons and discussions. (Ravenhill and Reidhead are great)Relating to the (Pre-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation) Rapture discussion, Dr. Charles Stewart has a sermon on this. http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=12505222744(Sorry to re-direct to another site, but it is very pertinent to the discussion - and since we are all striving for the same goal, I think it will be ok).Thanks,Travis

folk are not ready to suffer.Jesus continually tells us to to be ready! Many times he tells us not to be caught off guard. The problem with the pre-rapture idea is that you have no need to be ready. Any minute you could be taken and that's it. Ready for what? Ready for trials and tribulation?It's a shame to think that at the most crucial moment, when Jesus should be lifted up as the bronze snake, the church will vanish and leave all the sinners for God's return.Remember that Paul tied in the coming of the Lord Jesus AND the gathering of the saints together, not two separate events.2 Thessalonians 2:1 - "Concering the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him..." -If we believe that Jesus will return to rapture us BEFORE tribulation, then do we believe in three comings?-Another interesting point: Read on after verse 1: "...we ask you, brothers, not to be alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us..." That is exactly where the pre-trib idea came from. A prophecy from a lady about 150 years ago.-And the next part of verse 2: "...saying that the day of the Lord has already come." This is precisely what everyone will be saying on that supposed disappearing of the saints. Believe the Scriptures when it makes clear that the day of the Lord will not be a secret, and this question will never have to be asked.-"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way." (v.3)Please, brothers and sisters, the next time you get hold of your Bibles read Matthew chapter 25 and see how the master, bridegroom and Lord RETURNS at the END after being away to separate the saints from the world.In Christ Jesus, who is to come,-Eli

dear brother,

what about what Jesus said in regard of the tribulation. for the sake of the elects those days were abreviated, if not, not flesh would survive.

in love.

Aaron,Looking at rev. and the antichrist it appears to me the saint are slaughtered.
who is left to help israel?
If i ask why would God remove the church when it is needed the most ,am I not also saying that should the rapture take place before the tribulation period,that God doesnt know what he is doing.
or , if it is a question of wits then I would think it would be quite common to question God in desasters......God why did you allow this?

David

I know art is a favorite on S.I. but this Apostolic manifesto quote seems out in left field.
Where is the church suppose to tie in to animal sacrifice with the jews rebuilding their temple?
Already churches are observing jewish feasts and covering thier heads with levitical prayer shouls.
Some even have the ark on the platform.

I would hope this would diminish not intensify

can anyone explain this?

David

Jim, to me it is just the opposite.the scenerio you put forth is inacurate.
I am pre-trib and i know without holiness nobody will see God.
Your false picture you paint of anyone not holding your interpretation of end times is totally out of line.
The five foolish virgins are shut out.
So the free ride you depict actually falls on the post-trib believers.
I could easily take the same shot and say"yea those post tribs think they can just sit back in their carnal lives cause Jesus aint comming back were just waiting for antichrist to show up. Then well get serious about our walk"
It is just the opposite. Those that are raptured will be ready. The foolish will not.
You will always have corrupt government with suffering people. This is not a template to gauge scripture.

This type of "study" will surely lead to error.
No sir,I will keep being led of God and the bible.
If you think communism is bad wait till the church is raptured, you only think youve seen suffering.

David