Out of Church Christians

I read an article at this site and I felt lead by the Lord to post it on here for discussion:http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~revival/00-Out-Of-Church.htmlI have a feeling just because I know my own heart and this being an internet community that this may be close to many peoples own lives on here.How many on here don't have a home church that they are active in with both their time, resources and their pocket book?I know for me I stayed out of the local church mainly out of pride, mammon (money), and an unrighteous sickness of the leadership of most churches. I felt sick with disgust for many of them and I wanted to let them know it because I truly hated them. If anything I wanted to deliver them a sermon to tell them off because they repulsed me. The last thing I wanted to do was to submit to authority (a part of that being giving a tithe to this authority.)I was a loner for the Lord and I could make it on my own and I didn't need these pharisees meddling in my business. My money could be better used elsewhere as I could see it. These churches manufactured a false Christianity or a Phariseeism that I was well aquanted with growing up. Lots of Godly words and deeds but know power.I needed an attitude adjustment. In reality my religous loner mentality was nothing more then having money as my idol in life and my fear was truly getting to know God or man. Any bad excuse of Christian behaviour I could find in the local body served my purpose to remain unsubmitted to the local God ordained biblical requirement that we submit ourselves to the established elders of the church. (Read Titus)So anyone man enough to admit they are an Out-Of-Church Christain on here?If so what is the real reason that you remain a church hopper? If God has commanded us in His word to submit to the local elders and leadership of the Church then what excuse can you give and for how long can you give it? A few weeks, few months, a few years, how long does it have to go before you become an active member in a church? What does that say about you if you refuse to be active in a local church body with established leadership in place?

ok, i will be "man" (even though I am a girl :) enough to admit that our family has been out of what most people would consider the "church system" for about 3 years now.Yes, we have tried a few in between.No, i don't really have any excuses.And yes, I do believe we are being led by the Lord.And yes, I have had plenty of attitude adjustments even while out of the church. When you live a life surrendered to the Lord- you can't help but get His chastisment when ever He sees fit. It is very important to our family to do the Lord's will.I must admit that my family and i have grown (spiritually) tremendously more since we've been out than when we go.For us, it has nothing to do with authority, it has to do with "truth". In His love, Chanin

Hi Aslieren,I know the man who wrote that article as we have discussed this topic at length. You wrote:I know for me I stayed out of the local church mainly out of pride, mammon (money), and an unrighteous sickness of the leadership of most churches. I felt sick with disgust for many of them and I wanted to let them know it because I truly hated them. If anything I wanted to deliver them a sermon to tell them off because they repulsed me. Whoa! Are you really serious here? I assume you are, but what changed your mind and caused you to see how you were really feeling? Surely you were not conscious of these feeling as you were living day to day; or were you? I'm not being judgmental at all, I am just trying to understand WHY you were so blazing mad? Me and many of my friends have tolerated all the same shortcomings and never got that upset; we simply sought the Lord and waited for Him to open doors. He opened them. There are still lots of problems; but that was true of a majority of the New Testament Churches mentioned in Scripture.Any bad excuse of Christian behaviour I could find in the local body served my purpose to remain unsubmitted to the local God ordained biblical requirement that we submit ourselves to the established elders of the church. (Read Titus)I have a term for this that I call "Spiritual Cannibalism." This is when our zeal is fed by anger at what is going on in the Church and not by the Holy Spirit. The problem with this is that if we follow it to it's logical conclusion we would backslide once all the problems in the Church are sorted out because there would be nothing left to feed our zeal. Remember, Jesus walks in the midst of the 7 Golden Candlesticks.I have a fairly big circle of friends that preach repentance or long for revival and they all have one common 'beef' with the Church; Compromise. But look at this little list for a minute and see if this makes any sense:1) One is upset because the music sounds like "rock" or is too contemporary.2) One is upset because the music is "old timey."3) One is upset because the Church is all about the money.4) One is in poverty and will not take up a traditional offering to combat this error in the church. 5) One group is mad over 'tongues in the Church'6) One believes tongues is the only evidence of genuine New Testament living7) One believes heads should always be covered.8) One is through with all "that legalism."9) One believes that they can listen to secular rock music.10) Others believe it's the "Straw that breaks the camels back." 11) One believes tithe should not be taught.12) One believes tithe is the Divine command.13) One believes there should be no hype in preaching!14) Another preaches a stirring message that gets the crowd saying AMEN! 15) One camp believes going to church is 'compromise.'16) One camp believes NOT going to church is evidence of backsliding.17) One believes in Eternal Security!18) Another believes in Lordship Salvation.19) One refuses ALL TV preachers.20) Another quotes from them in sermons. I could go on and on...What shall we say to these things beloved?I have found no real rhyme or reason even withing the message of REPENTANCE camp. What do we all agree upon? Will we say that one is in compromise if they do not agree with us? Because that is what I am hearing in many places and it has me quite concerned. God Bless,-Robert

I'm a "out-of-church" believer in Christ. Been there about 10 years now. We're not really "church hoppers" though cause I'm through shopping around trying to find the closest "church" to the Bible church. The Lord taught me he never was trying to build a "church" anyway but he was raising up a Called-Out Body of holy people (saints.)I got out of the man-made, institutional "church" because:Well, it's of man, not God.I got tired of watching the "rulership" fight among one another over who was going to be The Pastor/Reverend/Brother...etc, and be the true authority.I got tired of people arguing over the color of bathrooms, carpet, building programs, (insert a million other useless things here.)Sick of being continually cursed with the "tithe" doctrine and numerous other false church doctrines. Tired of watching my "word of faith" elders die before their time of inexplicable diseases while "believing" for healing.Tired of continually witnessing people who were supposed to be "dead to sin" (including myself) living in complete selfishness and sin, fornication, evil habits, anger, backbiting, hatred, dissension, differing in opinions, etc.Tired of watching, as another poster put it, the weekly preacher/church show..looking at the back of someone's head.Sick of being forced to celebrate or at least acknowledge "christian" holydays that are rooted deeply in ancient paganism while the "church" hides its head in the sand and pretends not to see it.Grossed out by watching "church" members of different denominations look at one another right across the street and not even know one another because they can't agree on what is written and what they're experiencing in God.I could go on and on...but I'll spare you. :)Do I feel guilty for not "going to church?" Absolutely not. I was led out by the Spirit of Jesus. Do I feel terrible about the necessity of doing such a thing. Yes indeed...continually. I have grieved. Have I forsaken the "church?" Yes. Have I forsaken the Body of Christ, the Ekklesia that Jesus is building? No. I've had a thousand times more true fellowship in the Spirit with brethren (and sistren) and learned much much more Truth in the written Word since I got out of the weekly "service" thing. Why do people call that "service" anyway. Isaiah 58 is "service", not playing a weekly church game.When the assemblies of God's people in my area get together in the Word and begin to obey it, the leadership organizing according to what's written, and cast out the false doctrines and the idols (sports, entertainment, gluttony fests, etc.), then I will be the first one to show up to serve with my gifts. Until then, I will serve with my gifts at my home like Philemon and be satisfied with the presence of Jesus where the two to five of us gather. I've already been accused of rebellion enough. Just bounces off now. God bless His Sheep in "churches" and out of "churches."

StevenL wrote:The Lord taught me he never was trying to build a "church" anyway but he was raising up a Called-Out Body of holy people (saints.)Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.Are you sure it was the Lord? ;-) p.s. I know what you really mean.

Whoa! Are you really serious here? I assume you are, but what changed your mind and caused you to see how you were really feeling? Surely you were not conscious of these feeling as you were living day to day; or were you? I'm not being judgmental at all, I am just trying to understand WHY you were so blazing mad? Me and many of my friends have tolerated all the same shortcomings and never got that upset; we simply sought the Lord and waited for Him to open doors. He opened them. There are still lots of problems; but that was true of a majority of the New Testament Churches mentioned in Scripture. I didn't realize it at the time that I was as hateful and angry as I was at the local church but I really was. It was at the root of a lot of my road rage episodes and other snaps I would have from time to time. I hated my brothers in the church and unsaved pretend brothers in the church and since I couldn't bare to figure out how to be a believer in the church without compromising I stayed out of the church. It didn't cause the hate to go away but I just took the hate out on others in all kinds of different ways. All the while I was unintentionally being self destructive to myself and walk with God. I finally discovered the way out of this bondage. The scripture, "If you love me you will obey my commandments". and 1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. and paraphrase, "they will know you are Christians because of your love for one another" Once I obeyed God in the areas I was not willing to let go of and loved Him I was able to love the idea of the local church and all the people in it especially the leadership I am required to be in submission to. The last thing I wanted to do was to be under submission to authority. Why was that? Because I was not submitting myself to God like I was supposed to so how in the world was I going to submit to leadership. That probably also had to do with my secret hatred for the police.

I would like to send out an URGENT call to all Godly Pastors, who frequent this site as a guest to become a member and bring some balance and an additional perspective to this entire "out-of-church" issue.Thank you,tony sexton

"Are you sure it was the Lord?" Absolutely. By the way, I was led to understand the meaning of the word "Ekklesia" that Jesus used. I think the word "church" helps remove the true representation of the word. :-)

Oh, and I am part of the eldership of our Assembly. I'll be glad to submit to an apostle if God sends us one. I'll have to see the Scriptural signs that this person is a true apostle though. Otherwise, I and my fellow elder will do as the Assembly at Ephesus did. Revelation 2.

Hi AsliEren,I didn't realize it at the time that I was as hateful and angry as I was at the local church but I really was. It was at the root of a lot of my road rage episodes and other snaps I would have from time to time. I know a fair number of out-of-church Christians and don't feel any more or less towards them than other Christians. In many cases it seems that they ran out of options. In others they were no longer able to tolerate the things going on; but I never knew of any to actually say they 'hated' the people in the church. I counted 4 times that you used that word. I still wonder what changed things for you? The last thing I wanted to do was to be under submission to authority. Why was that? Because I was not submitting myself to God like I was supposed to so how in the world was I going to submit to leadership. That probably also had to do with my secret hatred for the police. I'm not sure what you mean by 'submission' here? Are you referring to Hebrews 13:7? In settings I have been in there is only 'submission' in terms of what goes on with the direction of the Church. There is a real 'lack' of church discipline and accountability. In New testament times it was a priviledge to be part of the local body of believers (i.e. Corinth, etc.). Being turned out of fellowship or "Turned over to Satan" was one of the worst things that could happen to a person. If this process went on too long it made them vulnerable to the Devil's devices through the 'much sorrow' cause from being out of fellowship (II Corinthians 2). Get this, they were in danger of being turned out of a church laced with carnality and abuse of spiritual gifts. What about Galatia that 'did not obey the truth.' What about Ephesus that left her first love? What about Titus that needed to set things in order the 'wanting things' in Crete? The time would fail to mention the major problems of the other 4 churches of the Revelation. What had we done had we lived then? I have asked this a few times before and have yet to get an answer. My background deals with the roots of the Church's structure closely resembling the ancient synagogue; though that has been debated here already in Jewish Roots'. For me I am not so concerned with in or out; but whether everyone is walking in love towards them within and without.God Bless,-Robert

The few local Pastors that I have spoken to concerning this issue of “out-of-church” believers paint a slightly different perspective (as we might imagine they would.)It seems, there are some “out-of-church” believers who have not entirely left the Institutional Church (as some call it) voluntarily. In many cases they have unofficially or officially been put out of the Church. I am told of believers who blow in as guests and almost immediately expect and demand a position in the Church.I am told many times there is no “proving” ones ministry, and these believers when not allowed to take the Pulpit spend their time sowing discord among the saints, questioning the authority of the Pastor, deacons ect… they refuse to hold up the weary arms of the Pastor, as was the case with Moses, but instead are content to speak incessantly of their own pet doctrines.Thankfully, there are those here on SI who genuinely want to pattern their life after the New Testament pattern of life and Godliness.In Christ,tony

Just for reference, a related thread;House or Home Church Movement...you experience?Short on time, but "out" at the moment and not at all opposed to going back.Think Robert has a great perspective on this whole thing and I agree with him wholeheartedly.I know a fair number of out-of-church Christians and don't feel any more or less towards them than other Christians.Indeed, nor the opposite is true, my goodness should it be? This seems to keep coming up more and more in these days we live in. Not the problems, but in spirit. Have we forgotten Jesus's words...No wonder He prayed for us.

Hello Krispy,I probably cannot impartially critique my own post, but I would think it helpful to get as many different perspectives as possible on such an issue. Hopefully not condescending as I certainly have no axes to gring in this regard.The great thing about being part of the Body Of Christ is, although we may take differing positions on some issues, as we hold to the basic tenets of the Historical Christian Faith we are brothers and sisters in Christ.It may even seem we are being used as “sandpaper” at times, not to rub someone the wrong way, but quite the opposite that we may rub each other the right way!! Email me sometime Krispy, and tell me about yourself maybe a testimony of what God has done in your own life, and I will reciprocate.Blessings,tony

Tony... be careful not to over generalize.Generalizations are the hallmark of this topic nearly every time it comes up. No one wants to be generalized and even fewer want to be marginalized. This is on both sides of the coin. Personally, I meet for 'Church' in churches, homes, half-way houses, rodeo buildings, bingo-halls, nursing homes, city parks, hotel galleries, cafeterias, or anywhere else God has opened the door in the last year (I speak as a fool) and I have seen the guns pointed in both directions. No matter what our grievances are the bickering needs to end. There are legitimate problems, yes. But no one has answered my question yet about the problems of the New Testament Churches and folk working to correct them. There are many souls in churches in the West. Millions upon millions. If I point my 'guns' at them I will never see day of influence to see those in need to be brought to Christ. That is what has happened with some who could have made a GREAT difference in the Church. It saddens me to tears. No telling what God would have done.Much of the problem is ignorance in the people from the top down. Not all churches are intentionally in error. Some simply do not know better and need to see the right way in a way that they will receive it. Not a rebuke after service or an interruption of an altar call when sinners are contemplating their souls. Winning souls requires the wisdom of God. We can all walk out right now. We can start a church in our homes or anywhere else. But what about the multitudes that God has called us to minister to and show them the truth? Some of the most devoted people I have ever met are 'out of Church' and 'out of range' to influence those who desperately need that influence. We can all point out the problems that we see; but what good is that? What is the solution? We also need to remember that we don't go to church to be ministered to- but to minister. We minister to the Lord in praise and worship. others learn to minister to the Lord by our example. In short, we go to be an example of the believers. We go because sinners show up at churches seeking God. If God is not in the church before you show up- He is when you show up right? Then take God to the people. He is not in a building. He is in us. Be patient. Ye have need of patience. I was brought to church on the bus at 8 years old when my dad was an alcoholic and my whole family without God. Someone in the Church bought a van. Someone in the Church bought the gas to go in that van. Someone drove that van to pick me and my 6 year old brother up every Sunday AM and PM and on Tuesday nights. We lived about 15 miles from the Church. Someone built a church. Someone paid for the utility bills of that church. Someone purchased the Sunday School supplies that we used. Someone taught the class I was in and taught me about Jesus. What happened? I have 6 children and my family is serving God. My dad is set free from alcohol and a deacon now. He has ministries to shut-ins, homeless, and inner city children. Now we are buying the buses. We are buying the gas and we are picking up people. We are visiting the fatherless and the widows in their affliction and doing our best to keep ourselves unspotted of the world. I thank God for the Church. I would be headed to hell without it and so would be no less than 30 of my family members. May the Lord continue to build His Church that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. God Bless,-Robert

RobertW wrote:But no one has answered my question yet about the problems of the New Testament Churches and folk working to correct them. Hello Robert, please refresh my memory, what were those questions?

Hi Zeke,What about Galatia that 'did not obey the truth.' What about Ephesus that left her first love? What about Titus that needed to set things in order the 'wanting things' in Crete? The time would fail to mention the major problems of the other 4 churches of the Revelation. What had we done had we lived then?My question centers on the fact that most of the Churches in the New Testament period had serious issues that needed to be dealt with. The only Church that had it all totally together was Philedelphia and they were commended for their love. Love is patient and kind. Love is long-suffering. Love keeps no records of wrong. Their zeal was fueled by love- not anger or aggravation at what was happening in the Church. I suppose none of us had been needed in Philedelphia. God sends in crisis ministers for crisis hours. What are we here for?God Bless,-Robert