remembrance ??

Will there be remembrance of this life in heaven??

Certainly. Consider the story Jesus told of "the rich man and Lazarus". Or the calling up of Samuel. Not remembering this life will make heaven or hell not make sense to us. It would in that case be like being made anew, which it is not.

"if God has given you a job and you don't do it, in eternity you'll see a man wearing a crown forever and ever that you should have had. A hundred million years from now you'll be grieving over it." ~~Leonard Ravenhill

On a simple level, if there were no remembrance of this life in heaven then you would not be in heaven, somebody else would, you...as you know yourself would cease to exist. Jesus came to redeem, not erase...

I agree brother Tom, scripture does not paint a picture of eternal grief for the elect. I would also think we would be hard pressed to place a time frame on when the Lord wipes away the tears of the saints, given what a thousand years is to the very One who created time.. If they are tears of joy then why restrict them? If they are rooted in the repentance of opportunities missed, there may be glory in the need of a considerable time of mourning. It would be next to impossible to fully comfort someone who has suffered great loss in the first few seconds of their loss, but I would always default to the fact that with God, all things are possible.

Areadymind wrote ///On a simple level, if there were no remembrance of this life in heaven then you would not be in heaven, somebody else would, you...as you know yourself would cease to exist. Jesus came to redeem, not erase///

To me that would appear as faulty logic, correct me if I am wrong, It is the fleshly Brain the carnal (sarx) mind that remembrance resides within. Does the one whom has had a brain injury in this life and looses all remembrance cease to exist?? Does the one whom has dementia cease to exist.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

What were the "former things" of which Isaiah was speaking?

And also keep in mind that our "mind" is being "renewed" day by day.

I would definitely love to have this discussion proudpapa, providing you don't mind potentially long intervals between responses as I am super busy in life at the moment.

Yes, on a certain level someone with dementia has "ceased to exist," or at least part of them has. Every human being is more than a body, they are the accumulation of their experiences. The hope I have for people with severe dementia and senility, or concussions is that God will restore their memories on the new heaven and the new earth, provided they are/were believers.

A large part of those people is "dead" effectively, that does not make them "less human" but it does, in a sense...make them less "themselves."

There are some far more major reasons why I stated what I stated, and I will state up front that the passage in Isaiah is not meaning that our memories will by wiped away. God is expressing a sentiment of His capacity. Here I will quote Randy Alcorn's take on that passage in his book "Heaven."

"One writer claims, "'We will not even remember this old world we call Earth...nor will we even recall it! It simply will not enter into our minds.' This common misperception confuses people. They think we won't remember our earthly lives, including the relationships to precious to us. The people who believe we will not remember our present lives often cite Isaiah 65:17 as their proof: "Behold, I will create a new heavens and a new earth. 'The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind' However, this verse should be viewed in the context. It's linked to the previous verse, in which God says, 'For the past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from my eyes.' This does not suggest literal lack of memory, as if the omniscient God couldn't recall the past. Rather, it's like God's comment to Jeremiah: 'I will remember their sins no more.' (Jeremiah 31:34) It means that God chooses not to bring up our past sins or hold them against us. In eternity, past sins and sorrows won't preoccupy God or us. We'll be capable of choosing not to recall or dwell on anything that would diminish Heaven's joy." -Randy Alcorn "Heaven" pp 343-344.

I was also wondering for the sake of the conversation, is Isaiah 45:17 the only verse in the bible that you base your question on? I am not aware that there is anything else like it in scripture. If so, please include it in the discussion, as I agree with Mr. Alcorn on this point, you cannot de-contextualize the verse to build a dogma around. It is a "particular" kind of remembrance, of "particular" things, not remembered in a "particular" way.

There are also some MAJOR theological considerations when considering this issue. I will save those questions and thoughts for another time.

Hi Areadymind, you bring up some good thoughts and a good attitude. I do not have a real strong opinion Of the subject. The verse that I posted was just one off of the top of my head, let me give it some more thought and get back to you.

RE: Areadymind wrote //I would definitely love to have this discussion proudpapa, providing you don't mind potentially long intervals between responses as I am super busy in life at the moment.//

I don't mind

A few other points to consider papa. I had said there were theological considerations. One of them is that God has redeemed us through the work of the cross. I believe we will spend eternity being able to thank him with pure hearts, hearts with no mixed motives, once we are glorified.

Eternity, and the cross of Christ would have no meaning if we lost our memories of this life. Could you imagine, ten thousand years from now saying, "Amazing grace how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me!" If we forgot our former lives? We would then have to say after that line, "I am not sure what grace is, but I am sure God knows. I am also not sure what a wretch is, or how grace applies to it because I just simply don't remember what it was all about."

The purpose of redemption is not to brain wash us, that would be cruel and bizarre on Gods part. We will be able to glorify God with eternal gratitude, as the work of the cross is held up as the singular redeeming source of all Creations renewal.

After the New Heavens and New Earth are inaugurated, there are many things in Revelation 21-22 that implicitly imply memory of our past lives, and the history of the world, using scripture and simple logic, I hope this makes sense:

1. The city is called "New Jerusalem." (What meaning would "New" have if we did not remember its predecessor, "Old Jerusalem"?)

2. The city is prepared "As a bride." (Brides are something we relate to from history and experience, how would we know it was as a bride if our former memories were erased?)

3. Verse four of ch. 21 says that the "Former things have passed away." This in no way implies that our memories have been wiped out. I suspect that the wiping away of the tears has a great deal to do with the former memories, the cathartic relief we will experience in this moment will have to do with knowing that we will never again pass through the crucible of pain brought on by the former things of a sin wrecked creation.

4. The city has walls and gates, people made walls and gates, these are familiar human styles of architecture which God chooses to use, what need would he have of gates and walls?

5. On the gates are the names of the Patriarchs. (Their names will be both present tense, and are derived from their history. Could you imagine how odd it would be if none of us remembered who the patriarchs were, or what it was they did to be privileged to be remembered within the city's architecture for eternity?)

6. The New Jerusalem is measured with "Human measurements." Which obviously implies historical mathematics and geometry.

7. The fact that there is "No Temple" implies that we all knew there "once was" a temple. The lack of it is a marvel historically. We will see then how the tabernacle was a "Shadow" of things in heaven.

8. In verse 26 we are told that the "Glory of the nations" will be brought into the city. It seems to be implied in this passage that "nations" will still have a place in eternity. What that is, and exactly what the glory they bring in is up to speculation (although the book of Isaiah, especially chapter 60 gives us clues) at this point, but the fact remains that if we were to "forget everything" then the word "Nations" would, again, have no meaning.

9. Again the "Nations" are mentioned in 22:2, where the tree of life is given to them for their healing. Same point as above.

10. In verse 10, we are told that the evil will "Be evil still." The righteous are told to "still do right." How could we know right from evil had we no memory of how consuming the fruit of the tree of knowledge had impacted our race?

These are just a few considerations to get your gears working. Again, I think eternity would be bankrupt without our collective memories as the church. Those memories are going to make life in the New Jerusalem all the more rich, considering that our Good Shepherd caused us to pass THROUGH the valley of the shadow of death...for good.

One other thing, on a personal note. One of the reasons I am so looking forward to the New Heavens, and the New Earth, is the eternally rich fellowship we will be priveledged to engage in with one another, that fellowship will be greatly enriched by our memories, and testimonies which are going to be 100% pure, and 100% true. There will be no competition between believers, and there will be no agendas. No longer will fellowship feel like a job interview...