BrotherTom Zechariah 3: 1-5

Aw, KP, I wondered why the Cost of Discipleship Study thread had come to a halt.
I hadn't planned to post to it because to be honest with you, I haven't the money to buy the book - but I remember being blessed when reading it way back when and so I truly looked forward to seeing the posts of you all that were studying it together.

Sigh!

Will keep praying.
Love you in our LORD.

My dear KP: I have laid my horse to rest; Yes it is a dead horse now; I laid out my argument succinctly in many different arenas of the why and the reason I believed that DB was not a Christian man, but a humanist/Social-activist that promoted a "cause oriented " "liberation" theology.

I meant no harm to you or anyone personally, and I did not smear DB as you state. I constantly referred to specifics; in which none were responded to, but, as by yourself,I was smeared over as a nut-ball Critical spirit and whacko false prophet, and referred to as a minister of Satan, as you have done below....which were typical on that thread directed toward me.

IssacharSon wrote Below:
"The deliberate work, effort and force you put into scrubbing and scouring down Bonhoeffer's reputation with filthy rags is the worst form of corruption in persecuting the soul and spirit of a Christian.

By calling a fellow Christian a heretic, you are dragging our brother's blood cleansed spirit back through the muck and mire of a world which has already thrown him up and spit him out. The fate, remember, which every Christian will share in their relationship to the world!

A falsified reputation is a penultimate form of suffering which Satan desires to implicate in every Christian believer's life, as it carries with it a...more eternal, most harrowing , echo, BrotherTom!"

This is the Scripture IssacharSon referred to:
Zachariah 3:2 says: "And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?"............

So , IsaacarSon is rebuking me as Satan because Dietrich Bonhoeffer is a "Brand plucked out of the fire!".

IsaacharSon writes about Bonhoeffer.

" Yet, can we both accept that Bonhoeffer, too, was a "log plucked from the fire"? [ referring to God's rebuke of Satan in Zachariah 3.]

We clearly cannot abandon our Beloved Brother in Christ to the presumptuous accusations applied to his life, by the distorted estimations of the enemy who is "an accuser" by nature!.................................[ me ]

Sigh: I do not see DB as ever being a Christian, and I outlined why!..so...No, we cannot agree that he was a brand plucked out of the fire; for he was not, nor do I see him as a Christian at all, as far as doctrine and fruit that I assess...though he may have indeed been saved; I hope he was born again at some time.

I commended his nobility and courage, to do what he did. Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, and the fiery Christian "martyr" John Brown all walked in his footsteps, and were all martyred for their righteous cause too, but as DB, theirs was NOT a Christian cause, it was a liberation cause. This was never the path of Paul the Apostle, my hero, or the many Christian soldiers that I honor, in their legacy and life.

You state that you cannot sleep at night over this. This should show you that you are striving, and possibly out of God's Peace. This post is simply a renewed attack upon me,and inherently bitter, layered with some niceties and christianese. to justify that I cannot be right, as you are. I am not going to post anymore; I've said my piece peacefully, and I am sleeping good, as the servant of the Lord MUST not strive, as it appears you are.

The obvious question, if you want to discuss, or war over this anymore, is why don't you do so on your book club thread about DB? There , you can surely get enough backers to agree with your assessment of his life, but I will not attend.

I will not address this issue again, for issues stated. I hope you are ministered to at your book club.....Tom

Thank-You IsaacharSon: As Geronimo might say to Wlm. Tecumseh Sherman; "We bury-iam hatchet."

I accept your apology,all forgotten and we move on.

As far as Watchman Nee; He was probably my chief mentor in the early days of my walk, as I, like you probably, devoured everything I could get my hands on about the "deeper things of God", and Watchman was indeed that.

I remember THE SPIRITUAL MAN, [The Spiritual Man was based mainly upon the writings and experience of Evan Roberts and Jessie Penn-Lewis ] maybe his most famous book.

[ Roberts and Penn-Lewis saw only the individual aspect of spiritual warfare, and thus they presented it as a difficult matter. But over ten years after the publication of The Spiritual Man, Watchman began to realize that spiritual warfare, according to Ephesians 6, must be carried out by the Body of Christ in a corporate way.

For this reason he made a final decision to discontinue the publication of this book. However, having later realized in Taiwan that with the exception of the chapter on spiritual warfare, this book could be quite helpful to believers in the matter of spiritual life, we decided to reprint it. Anyone who reads this book should keep in mind the above remarks. ]
http://www.watchmannee.org/publications.html

The above site is a good tool to discover ALL of Nee's work, and capture a concept of how and why he responded as he did. He wrote all manner of instruction to the church, and possibly saw himself as an Apostolic model, which indeed he was. He was a prolific communicator , and what made him unique, was that he actually had a vision to implement the "DEEPER LIFE" into normal church life.

It seemed to me, that he "micro-managed" the church some, and had his influence in about everything imaginable; and constructed his own catechism to mold her, similar to Luther's leadership; hymns and all.

Later, this caused much trouble, as some held his doctrines in Elitism, as his intellectual power seemed to overwhelm many..[ He was high into authority and submission, remember? Well, he was the authority.]

I read AUTHORITY AND SUBMISSION,THE NORMAL CHRISTIAN LIFE, SIT WALK STAND, TWELVE BASKETS FULL and a few others. Yes, I know, that Nee was a fan of the Catholic mystics, [Which
I am not.] and had some books translated into Chinese written by them...through a co-worker.

....part two above......

"From the evening I was saved, I began to live a new life, for the life of the eternal God had entered into me."
Nee Shu-tsu (Watchman Nee

As we talk about Mentors, and Nee was a Titan, no doubt, did you know that Watchman Nee only found one man on Earth that he considered spiritual enough to receive Pastoral care from: Can you guess who he was? Yes, my mentor, T. Austin Sparks. Nee received Sparks, and he greatly influenced Nee, as well as the early Keswick convention stars, such a Penn-Lewis and Roberts.

TAS may have changed Nee's ministry for the good more than any other though, especially involving his dogma circling around the idea of THE LOCAL CHURCH.[ wrote a book about it] Nee believed that as the New Testament implied, as per the ministry of Paul, especially, there could only be one authentic church in one city or locale....and as he was right most of the time, that it had to be HIS denomination that was that one and only church.

This doctrine bred much pride, as it still does today, though Nee repented of it, through the ministry of his good friend, T.Austin Sparks.

Others in China, before Mao, resisted, after being indoctrinated, and a rift occurred in the Nee organization; and it yet remains today. THE LOCAL CHURCH; ran by Witness Lee, is still around, and as I see it, very divisive in their elitism, and are very introverted in fellowship; semi-cultish in adherence to instreamed, denominational doctrine.

Some of this must be laid on Nee's shoulders, as he promoted his spiritual authority, and was the undisputed apostle figure alone in China. His towering intellect, along with respect given, was indeed the "Gorilla" in the room, so to speak.

He was one of the most influential ministers of the Gospel in China ever, second perhaps as fare as influence goes, to the great Hudson Taylor.

"He was a Christian missionary to China, and founder of the China Inland Mission (CIM) (now OMF International). Taylor spent 51 years in China. The society that he began was responsible for bringing over 800 missionaries to the country who began 125 schools and directly resulted in 18,000 Christian conversions, as well as the establishment of more than 300 stations of work with more than 500 local helpers in all eighteen provinces."..wiki

Yet in a contemporary sense, he built much on Taylor's foundation.

"Beginning in the sixteenth century, Protestant missionaries went to China for the gospel, but in the opening years of the twentieth century, following years of faithful labor and prayer, the Lord’s move in China began to advance dramatically after the martyrdom of many Christians in the Boxer Rebellion.

In the 1920s, many believers, who were raised up by the Lord from among high-school and college students throughout China, became instrumental in the spread of the gospel. From among these students, Nee Shu-tsu (Watchman Nee) was called and equipped by the Lord for His work."
http://www.watchmannee.org/life-ministry.html

It was evident that Nee had some sense of urgency, all of his life, to see the church founded and grounded in the word, and relationship. Later, he found out why, as the scourge of Red Socialism consumed China...[almost overnight ]..there was a real church prepared.

Here is a more critical article that must be considered, as it shows how Nee developed some of his ideas. It is rather long, but worth reading to more fully understand the complexities of a truly great Gospel messenger.

Many accept the writings of Watchman Nee [ without criticism ] even though few know anything about his background. Many are impressed by the volume of his work and the dogmatism and feeling of deep spirituality that characterize his writings. His ideas and books still influence Charismatics, fundamentalists and people in between.

But one need not be a theologian to discover that his teachings call for scrutiny and caution by Christians. Much can be learned about Nee from a cursory reading of some of his books and the writings of others who were around him. These show that his theology developed through encounters with four different people and it was from these that he "borrowed" ideas extensively. Each new book seemed to develop from "discoveries" received from these teachers.

Nee's basic writings cover over 40 volumes and have been researched by Dana Roberts. His findings are not flattering to Nee and are presented in his book Understanding Watchman Nee. This writer is indebted to Roberts for much of the material in this article.

Nee was born Nee Shi-Tsu in November 1903. His mother, a Methodist mission convert, later changed his name to "Bell ringer," or Watchman, with all the Christian connotations. He claimed conversion to Christianity in April 1920. At a Bible school in Shanghai, he came under the influence of a female teacher, Miss Yu.

Under her instruction he seriously sought a "second blessing." He later said he felt he had "recovered" truth for the church and taught four subsequent experiences after conversion.

Miss Yu directed Nee to Miss M.E. Barber, who taught him in the Keswick concept of the filling of the Spirit. In February 1922, Nee claimed, he was "baptized in the Spirit" and put himself under the continuing instruction of Barber.

Barber then was responsible for the development of Nee's PERFECTIONIST theology. Barber also convinced Nee of the truth of the "PARTIAL RAPTURE" theory assigning carnal believers to a kind of Protestant purgatory. Nee admitted that in his writings on the book of Revelation, he depended on a book from Barber's library by Robert Gonett [Govett] that teaches a partial rapture. Thus we see how he got these new "insights" that became the basis for new books.

Later, Barber allowed Nee to read the works of Jesse Penn Lewis when she thought he was "mature enough," Roberts says. Penn Lewis, a mystic with a Welsh Methodist background, saw many parts to man's inner nature.

Her literaure, considered "holiness literature," is the main source for Nee's Spiritual Man series, in which he developed a gnostic view of man, Roberts says. Nee also got doses of Catholic mysticism through the writings of Madame Jeanne Guyon, as published in Penn Lewis' magazine.

Nee continued to read widely and when Barber exposed him to the writings of John Darby, he found the basis for his ecclesiology, or thoughts on the church. From that point, everything Nee wrote on the church is easily identified with the teachings of the Plymouth Brethren.

He rejected clergy as unscriptural.

During this time Nee also professed to be led by inner leadings. He justified this subjective means of revelation by saying that the ways of God are not known by external means but by "internal registrations." Again, he was rejecting external authority.

Nee had his own eclectic system developed when he encountered another woman in 1935. Elizabeth Fischbacker introduced him to Pentecostal theology and speaking in tongues. Nee did not regard tongues as unbiblical but never spoke in tongues himself.

In 1942, Nee took over the running of his brother George's chemical factory. He consigned all the property to the church and sought to have the church members as the factory workers. As a result he contradicted previous positions he had taken regarding disassociation of the church and business.

In 1949, Mao-Tse Tung came to power and Communist China was born. Nee, a factory owner, was seen as an imperialist and eventually was jailed. He remained in prison until his death in 1972.

The teachings that developed over Nee's lifetime and out of his encounters with these women and the teachings they directed him to are dangerous to Christians seeking clear guidelines to follow. Space allows a listing of only a few of the problems in Nee's teachings.

* Nee outlines no method of Bible study and interpretation and appears to deny evangelical hermeneutics. In his book Spiritual Authority, he sets himself and his elders up as the unquestionable authorities. By all appearances, Nee saw himself not as a servant but as a guru.

One gets the impression from Nee that the Bible was not nearly as important as Christians generally consider it. In his book The Ministry of God's Word, Nee says, "Words alone cannot be considered God's Word." In this book, Nee becomes very philosophical, mystical and incoherent.

He says that only as we deliver the Word in terms of the "reality behind it," using what he calls "Holy Spirit memory" and "presenting the pictures as well as speaking the words" will the words be correct; otherwise they are not real.

* Nee overemphasizes emotions. In The Ministry of God's Word, he claims that the effectiveness of a preacher's delivery is a product of his emotions. If a preacher does not feel emotionally charged in delivery, "The Spirit is stuck" and the "Spirit is inevitably arrested," Nee says.

He continued, "The Spirit flows through the channel of emotion." Then he arrives at a strange conclusion: !!"Nose in the Scripture stands for feeling. Smelling is a most delicate act, man's feeling is most delicate." Therefore, Nee says, a preacher in speaking needs to "mix feelings with the words spoken, else his words are dead.!!

If our feeling lags behind, or words are stripped of the spirit." To say as Nee does, on page 210, that the Holy Spirit only rides on feeling is dangerous.

* Nee uses terms imprecisely. One example is his writing about a minister's receiving "revelations" in his "Holy Spirit memory" and those revelations being remembered in us by the Holy Spirit. This sort of metaphysical mumbo jumbo is impossible to understand, since there is no direct scriptural reference to a "Holy Spirit memory."

When a Christian begins to see Nee as a guide in determining the value of other Christian writers, or sees Nee's writings as a key to spirituality, that person is headed for trouble.

Nee's presuppositions are suspect in light of the Word of God. His books provide grist for cult groups such as The Way, The Alamo Foundation, the Children of God and other groups. The astute believer should watch out for Watchman Nee.
G. Richard Fisher:http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/wnee.html

*...[ I think that the spirit of this author is against Nee altogether, but never-the-less worthy of consideration. I believe that there is much more to the validity to Nee, and his general impact, that the cultic ideas he writes of...and will address those issues in the next...Nee 3.]

As I said before, that is not the whole of the story; I know. Nee was so much more than a factory owner, and that is not the core of his life. I suspect that his brother wanted to give Watchman a means of income, and that this was the Provision of the Lord, and he was not arrested by the Chicoms because of being Capitolist!...............

Realizing that the Lord’s work in China, which began in Shanghai through Watchman Nee, must be one, Witness Lee gave up his work in northern China and moved to Shanghai in 1934 to work more closely with Watchman Nee.

They labored, suffered, spread the work, received revelation, and brought in revivals together. Brother Lee edited Watchman Nee’s publication The Christian from 1934 to 1940, serving in the Shanghai Gospel Bookroom set up by Watchman Nee, and was Watchman Nee’s best man at his wedding.

Uncertain about the fate of the Lord’s move in China following the collapse of the nationalist government in 1949, Watchman Nee sent Witness Lee and a few others to Taiwan in 1949 to continue the work there.

The last contact between Watchman Nee and Witness Lee was in Hong Kong in March 1950, twenty-five years after Witness Lee first knew of Watchman Nee. At that time, the two of them had extensive fellowship about Watchman Nee’s return to the mainland. He told Witness Lee, “What shall we do with so many churches on the mainland? I must return to take care of them and stand with them for the Lord’s testimony.”

Martyrdom
Watchman Nee was led by the Lord to remain in mainland China and to sacrifice his life for the Lord’s work there. In this respect, he was like the apostle Paul in Acts 20:24, who said, “I consider my life of no account as if precious to myself, in order that I may finish my course and the ministry which I have received from the Lord Jesus.” Concerning Watchman Nee’s decision, Brother Hsu Jin-chin testified the following:

Before Brother Nee left Hong Kong, Brother Lee advised him many times not to return to the mainland. But Brother Nee said, “If a mother discovered that her house was on fire, and she herself was outside the house doing the laundry, what would she do? Although she realized the danger, would she not rush into the house? Although I know that my return is fraught with dangers, I know that many brothers and sisters are still inside. How can I not return?”

Watchman Nee was arrested in March 1952 because of his professed faith in Christ as well as his leadership among the local churches. He was falsely condemned, judged, and sentenced in 1956 to fifteen years of imprisonment.

During this time, only his wife was allowed to visit him. Although there is no way for us to know what he experienced of the Lord during his long imprisonment, his last eight letters provide a glimpse into his suffering, feeling, and expectation during his confinement.

Although prison censors did not allow him to mention the Lord’s name in his letters, in his final letter, written on the day of his death, he alluded to his joy in the Lord: “In my sickness, I still remain joyful at heart.”

Watchman Nee was practicing the word of the apostle Paul, who said in Philippians 4:4, “Rejoice in the Lord always.” He died in confinement on May 30, 1972. Humanly speaking, he died in misery and humiliation. Not one relative or brother or sister in the Lord was with him. There was no proper notification of his death and no funeral.

He was cremated on June 1, 1972. Because his wife had died six months earlier, her eldest sister was informed of his death and cremation. She retrieved his ashes, which were buried alongside those of his wife in his hometown of Kwanchao in the county of Haining, Chekiang province.

In May 1989 the ashes of Watchman Nee and his wife were transferred to and buried in “The Christian Cemetery” in Shiangshan in the city of Soochow, Kiangsu province.

The following is an account from Watchman Nee’s grandniece, who accompanied Mrs. Nee’s sister to the labor farm to pick up his ashes:

In June 1972, we got a notice from the labor farm that my granduncle had passed away. My eldest grandaunt and I rushed to the labor farm. But when we got there, we learned that he had already been cremated. We could only see his ashes…Before his departure, he left a piece of paper under his pillow, which had several lines of big words written in a shaking hand.

He wanted to testify to the truth which he had even until his death, with his lifelong experience.

That truth is—“Christ is the Son of God who died for the redemption of sinners and resurrected after three days. This is the greatest truth in the universe. I die because of my belief in Christ. Watchman Nee.”

When the officer of the labor farm showed us this paper, I prayed that the Lord would let me quickly remember it by heart...

My granduncle had passed away. He was faithful until death. With a crown stained with blood, he went to be with the Lord. Although God did not fulfill his last wish, to come out alive to join his wife, the Lord prepared something even better—they were reunited before the Lord.

During Watchman Nee’s imprisonment he was confined, but his ministry was not bound (2 Tim. 2:9). Under the Lord’s sovereignty, his ministry has spread throughout the entire world as a rich supply of life to all seeking Christians.

His ultimate burden was the spread and the building up of the church as the house of God, God’s tabernacle. Although his own earthly tabernacle (physical body) has been taken down, the building of God obtained through his ministry remains and still is growing and spreading throughout the earth.

By the time Watchman Nee was arrested in 1952, approximately four hundred local churches had been raised up in China. In addition, over thirty local churches had been raised up in the Philippines, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, and Indonesia. Today there are over twenty-three hundred local churches worldwide because of the rich and faithful ministry of Watchman Nee.

Life and MinistryTestimoniesTeachingsPublicationsCollected Works of Watchman Nee
http://www.watchmannee.org/life-ministry.html

I travelled to China on a Gospel Mission in 2007. I went alone, and by burden and revelation, and that was to what we call the Underground Church, here in America.

Before I went, though, I obtained an interview with one of the young men that Watchman Nee and T. Austin Sparks had sent out to Taiwan, in the very early 50s.

He was around 90 years of age, I suppose. I spent 3 days with him, in LA interviewing him, and listening to his stories . I got a flavor, somewhat, about T.A. Sparks and Nee, that are rather rare, I suppose; from eye witnesses and friends that knew them personally.

I was aware of the influence of Nee, and the Spiritual Fathers that sprang from him, as he had founded a truly Spiritual Church, in the previous three decades. It was as though that he knew....and worked furiously to accomplish a Church that would stand, and stand she did.

It is impossible to say how many of the 120 million or so believers that are in China today who were saved from the foundations of Nee's ministry; with at least 400 churches grounded before Mao, but because of the radical nature of his doctrine...and me....maybe partly because of Nee, or at least influenced by Him.....the ALL FOR JESUS NO MATTER THE COST IDEA...that Nee devoted his life to.

So, I travelled to inland china, eventually.

I had no contacts, and first went to Hong Kong , and prayed for a couple of weeks, until I was led to this Australian Bible smuggler fellow, who opened a door and that one opened a door, etc, and I got to where I was going.

I was allowed to Pastor a small fellowship inland, and then acquired an interpreter, who travelled with me.

I did minister to the true Underground Church about 1000 miles inland, in the farm-land villages; they came to me secretly at night; they were fearful but resolved. They posted sentries around, and were ready to slip in and out, with stealth. Why? Because they were HUNTED! I call them the "Hunted Church."..We cannot fathom this here.

Most of the men had vanished, or just stayed behind. Some had been arrested. This was near Brother Yun's area, of THE HEAVENLY MAN. I just washed feet, and encouraged as I could. They liked me , I guess. They still burden me, as I remember looking into their eyes, and seeing their struggle; almost like it wasn't fair...but without complaint.

I think, that one way or another, I could see Nee's legacy in their eyes, and think that because of his legacy, they could too expect tribulation and persecution as the norm, and get up, and begin again with Jesus, no matter the clouds, or the rain! Jesus shined in them, you see.

Concerning Watchman Nee, and his statement that intellect is/was the "Chief cause of the fall.

IssacharSon writes, addressed to me:
"Yet, he [ Watchman Nee] relies on the very stewardship of his "intellect" to express what is in his Spirit. He was an intellectual if there ever was one. Though he claims to have submitted it to his Spirit.

But the "intellect" as the "chief cause of the Fall". C'mon! If this has any truth to it, then, shame on us, yeah!

I do not worship the intellect anymore (I used to as Abram worshipped the "Moon gods"). Yet, it is important. DOes your intellect cause you to "Fall", BrotherTom?

Do you think the intellect has such a powerful role in our "Fall"? If so, how do we renounce it or subdue it?

If you have the time, I'd like to know what you think about it." [ this issue.]......________.........I.S.

I respond to IS; Brothertom writes;

"Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee!; Love her!, and she shall keep thee.

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her."

With all of your getting; GET UNDERSTANDING! Wisdom, Spiritual Insight and Understanding all must be channeled through our minds, and in this sense, the understanding of of it must be grasped by the intellect; computed and communicated so to speak.

Let me ask you this, How does your intellect grasp such things as the Fear of the Lord? and Peace, or the ability to unite with Agape Love?

In a pure sense, it cannot, for these are attributes of the Spirit world, but all of these can AND SHOULD be expressed here in our mortal world, and must be communicated, and we must maneuver our lives in such a way as to adhere to the good, and jump the puddles; such as foolishness, ignorance, dogma or simple immaturity. How can a man teach the Word, if he does not Understand the Word?

We are all frail, and muddied up in our thinking, our intellect, somewhat, ALL OF US, and each one of us have fallen, to a degree or another, to trusting in our intellect, and watching it betray wisdom for you...many times; who has not?

I like a famous word of faith fellow who called it with rhyme; "STINKIN' THINKIN'"..[.though he used it to adhere to WOF heretical ideas...] and there is such a thing as "putting on the mind of Christ".......

Revelation must be expressed and communicated through the [ impaired, to Heavenly standards, anyway, ] intellects of mere men. When I consider my Earthly heroes of the faith with great minds, I think of Paul the Apostle. Men have spent their entire lives attempting to attain to his spiritual understanding, and he possessed the most keen of intellects ever.

God chose a vehicle in Paul to carry his sufferings and glory, while adorning him with such a mind to not only live it, but to communicate it, both in power, and in words that conveyed the Understanding of it.

Consider the collosal works of Romans and Hebrews: Perfect enough to be considered Canon, the absolute Word of God to man. Wow! and ...did he think? Did he meditate? Did God anoint his intellect? Absolutely...and I think much the same way as holy prophecy is given...like an utterance.

I think Nee was pointing at Lucifer's thinking when he assessed the Fall situation in this sense, not that the intellect was a useless commodity that we, as men, must deny...and overemphasized the reliance on it, as all of the world does, in it's rebellious pride.

We subdue it, by conforming our minds to the living image of the Mind of Christ Himself, and that by death; dying to us to live to him; DAILY. When pride arises in my spirit, and floats to my mind, and ?I think I am all of that....I SEE IT!...and then confess to God as quick as I can my SIN..."Father forgive me of that wicked and proud thought! See me covered by the blood of Jesus , and forgive and cleanse me......And he does, and then, the ultimate Thinker; THE PEACE OF GOD.

HOW DO WE THINK, AND THINK DEEP?

"Be careful [ WORRISOME ] for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, THINK ON THESE things."

As a servant/elder to the body of Christ, and a minister of the Gospel, we must be equipped to address a manifold of human issues and ideas, and with holiness and Peace as our sail, God's conviction will endorse our minds with the right choice every time.

In all of these, the intellect must be engaged to a degree, but surely, smart or eloquent men are often God's last choice. He chose the foolish, and ignorant and unlearned nincompoops, like me and you and beloved Peter, the great Apostle, who previously fished for money.

There is also a great lie that condemns most of the Western world; TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING IS TO BECOME IT.

Often, theology is that way. God dwells in our heart, not in our intellect. Try to concentrate as hard as you can, and construct a plan to raise someone from the dead using your intellect, and throw in Albert Einstien too, and you will still have a full grave.

Dear KP, I'm posting the link of my favorite website. I've posted this website since I've been on the Net these past 10 yrs.

Here's some pages that may interest you. Be sure to click all of the links as well.

http://www.crossroad.to/Persecution/Bonhoffer.html

KP, what you wrote in this last post is a masterpiece :)

and I fully agree.

Thank you!!