Public Rebuke of Sermon Index and False Teaching

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RighteousNew Aug 5, 2012

I read the following response from the moderator in regards to the initial thread question of "Are we justified by faith alone?":

"Our security is in Christ alone. BUT THE SCRIPTURES DO NOT TEACH FAITH ALONE. For faith apart from works is dead. Faith also needs to be active for demons have faith but do not live in righteousness. Faith also needs to have a voice we need to confess Christ before others. Faith also needs to rest and trust daily and be reckoned upon." (quote from sermonindex: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45297&forum=36&55 )

While his answer may seem correct, it is in fact 100% wrong and misleading. This is the false gospel spoken of explicitly in Galatians, and the other epistles.

According to his above logic our security is NOT in Christ alone, it would have to lie in our ability to perform "works" or "be reckoned upon".

I can not believe that he actually said the words, "But the scriptures do not teach faith alone."

And I can not believe that he said those words, and the vast majority of people just sing ho-hum and keep skipping along.

Salvation by faith alone - THAT IS THE VERY HEART AND ESSENCE OF THE ENTIRE BIBLE.

As well sermonindex said, "Faith also needs to be active for demons have faith but do not live in righteousness." Demons do not have faith in Jesus Christ's birth, death, and resurrection! James chapter 2 is not saying that demons believe in Christ! It says that they believe there is one God:

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that —and shudder.

If sermonindex believes these things then:

a) salvational is conditional, depending on what you do or do not do
b) no one, including himself, can know they will be saved (or even are saved)
c) salvation is part Jesus' work and part your actions
d) what joy can we have in our salvation, if we can lose it?
e) you have to esteem yourself rather highly - because your "not living in sin" (when in actuality we "are sin" - as we are still in the flesh)

You have Christ when you believe in him as your Savior. What does it mean when he says "I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish"?

Alot of y'all here on this message forum are like the pharisee who consider yourselves better than the contrite sinner.....and you do not see it! That's why you say things like real salvation leads to actions.

These actions are:

a) not always manifested as you might think
b) are to vastly differing degrees by the person

* If this website "Sermon Index" believes the following, "But the scriptures do not teach faith alone." then that statement should headline your statement of faith and I would go one step further and argue that it should be in the title banner atop the sermonindex.net logo

This issue is the crux of the entire Gospel. If this is wrong, if this foundation is not established on the Rock then everyone labors in vain!

I read sermonindex's comments on this thread. Are there not other moderators on this website? So I assume you all agree with his statements?

Verdict: Salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ, not of works. Salvation is eternal life, also called everlasting life. When you become born again, when Christ saves you, he will keep you. Do not listen to blatant "works salvationists" and surely do not listen to "veiled works salvation advocates".

The simplicity of the Gospel. The simplicity of the child like faith in Jesus which leads to mighty exploits by his people (which are known by Christ alone).

Proponents of "salvation is not by faith alone" are going to be in grave trouble one day with the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

Written in tears.

sermonindex Aug 5, 2012

I'm sorry, but I've got to smile. This is to me, really funny. RighteousNew, your in the forest so deep, you cannot see the trees.

Wolves howl in your Forest; it is not called Sherwood, but Dogma-wood. It is the only right camp, has the only right houses, and they are painted ALL THE EXACT same way.

Every Sunday evening your government there sends squads of inspectors out to assure that the lawns are mowed, and the haircuts are acceptable, and if the toothpicks are lined up in the bathrooms just right. There will be consequences if they are not, even War on the offenders.

I hear a trumpet blast in the dark night! Who could it be?

There is a man preaching loudly, but few can hear him?

I hear it! " FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD!"...I heard that somewhere...and then a faint whisper from above!

"Faith works by love."

I wonder: Could loving another be counted as a work?

Could being conformed to His image be a bonafide work of God? Something to think about.

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RighteousNew Aug 5, 2012

If someone does not believe that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ, then they are a lost, damned man.

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proudpapa Aug 5, 2012

RighteousNew wrote ///If someone does not believe that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ, then they are a lost, damned man.////

Here is another view to think about, If someone does not have a Love faith relationship with Jesus Christ are they saved or lost??

Christianity is not about right doctrine it is about a relationship.

edit for clearer to my intention

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RighteousNew Aug 5, 2012

re: "Christianity is not about right doctrine it is about a relationship."

YES! A relationship based on faith in God's only begotten Son! If you don't have that "doctrine" then you don't have Christ!

1 Corinthians 16:22 - If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come!

sermonindex Aug 5, 2012

Believing words, even the words of God, does not equate to salvation. It is believing in Christ Himself which saves. Yes there is a need to present doctrines but only to contend with heresy and lies. Those who are truly saved by grace, always bear fruit and always confess Christ. It is impossible to say that you truly believe in Christ Jesus crucified for sin, and not show true repentance and a determination to walk by faith. Walking is the fruit of the spirit and good works, faith is the power to believe, and the gift of life is the power to bear fruit. Salvation is the outcome. First the treasure of eternal life in this earthen vessel. Hereafter a new body and the fulness of seeing Christ himself. You are putting things the wrong way round though for what purpose I cannot say. I do wonder why you believe you have the authority to rebuke a man who's works are visible and who is called to a ministry which is dedicated to God's glory in Christ Jesus.

S

SHMILY Aug 5, 2012

Ephesians 2:8-10 ~ NASB

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

James 2:14-26

14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,

16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead

REJOICE! =)
Mary

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ccchhhrrriiisss Aug 5, 2012

Hi RighteousNew,

I think that most believers will agree that faith in Christ is the basis of belonging to Him. That is the reflection or shadow of the relationship with Him. I don't think that such a thing is in question...regardless of whether a person is a hyper-Calvinist, hyper-Arminian or anywhere in-between (or none of the above).

I would like to ask you a question:

There are individuals who say that they have "faith" in Christ and have been "justified" and "saved" because of it...yet they live in obvious, willful sin. Does such a person truly have "faith" if they walk in continuous darkness?

What if such a person came to Christ and then somehow became one of those individuals that Christ spoke about in the Parable of the Sower?

*EDIT - Thanks Mary for sharing that passage! It was the very one that I was thinking of too!

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RighteousNew Aug 5, 2012

re: "I do wonder why you believe you have the authority to rebuke a man who's works are visible and who is called to a ministry which is dedicated to God's glory in Christ Jesus. "

I am rebuking because he has said that "salvation is not by faith alone" I said this at the beginning of my post.

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RighteousNew Aug 5, 2012

re: "There are individuals who say that they have "faith" in Christ and have been "justified" and "saved" because of it...yet they live in obvious, willful sin. Does such a person truly have "faith" if they walk in continuous darkness? "

Hebrews 12: 5-8

5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;

6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?

8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

If a believer walks in darkness, continual sin - it is God's will that he will chasten them. If God does not chastise someone over his sins them then they are not His.

If God does not chastened someone over a false gospel, then you tell me what that means?

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Solomon101 Aug 5, 2012

Righteousnew states

Our security is in Christ alone. BUT THE SCRIPTURES DO NOT TEACH FAITH ALONE. For faith apart from works is dead........and.... While his answer may seem correct, it is in fact 100% wrong and misleading.

Evidently The book of James is not in agreement with your conclusions. It is the other side of the mountain.... but God's truth none the less.

You see that a person IS considered righteous BY WHAT THEY DO AND NOT FAITH ALONE.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute CONSIDERED RIGHTEOUS FOR WHAT SHE DID when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? James 2:24-25

Righteousnew states

I am rebuking because he has said that "salvation is not by faith alone"

So.... you are in essence rebuking Sermonindex for quoting the book of James verbatim! This seems especially true when the entire post is read in context.

Brother Tom is right as was the original post by Sermonindex. You are only seeing one side of the mountain brother.... it is simply bigger than your currently understanding appears to be on it.

If it bothers you so terribly then go start your own website and post what you wish. However, to come a site provided by Sermonindex, and attack them them on their own site, is entirely inappropriate. IMHO.

sermonindex Aug 5, 2012

I am rebuking because he has said that "salvation is not by faith alone" I said this at the beginning of my post. RighteousNew

Yes I understood what you have said. But a rebuke is a matter of authority especially when it involves rebuking a brother who has declared that he is in a ministry in obedience to the leading of God. It is possible to question and even challenge effectually without actually rebuking. At least you have understood that your words are a rebuke. I wonder if you understand also that by doing it you present yourself to God Himself as one in authority. Otherwise your rebuke is just personal. If it is personal then it lacks the substance of real authority. If it is not then you bring yourself into judgement because all authority belongs to God.

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roadsign Aug 5, 2012

I am rebuking because he has said that "salvation is not by faith alone" I said this at the beginning of my post.

The trouble with brief clips of words is that they cannot adequately and fully convey one’s thoughts, values, beliefs, motives etc. It’s easy to read something into them that in fact the writer does not intend. That has happened to me a few times here. And I think that is what's happening with you.

It is far more effective to avoid taking a determined offensive position and first get to know the person who wrote the questionable statement. Then you can understand more clearly how they think - if you are a good listener.

Please visit my “Slaying the Mighty Giant” thread. I just posted a list of verses from Thessalonians, and you will see how works and FAITH are indeed related... and how I'm sure my brother actually intends to be understood.

Edit: comment removed

See you there.

Diane

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narrowpath Aug 5, 2012

What is wrong with works?
Faith alone does not save, and works alone do not save, but faith that expresses itself in works. At the judgement seat we are not judged by our faith or doctrine we believed but by works we wrought in faith.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Revelation 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

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TMK Aug 5, 2012

We are saved by faith, not works. But we aren't saved unless our faith works.

sermonindex Aug 5, 2012

"We are saved by faith, not works. But we aren't saved unless our faith works." TMK

Bravo TMK. Paul could not have outdone ya! I'm smilin' again.

It's called obedience to the Spirit and following the Lamb; this is faith that works and the works of faith all bundled up in one sheepskin.

"Brevity is the soul of wit." Watkins:2:20

[ Haven't got any of the rest of it down too well, yet...]BT

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Elibeth Aug 5, 2012

Dear soul,

How do I say this,..?...and please study....and consider ..

Can we look at the word ' FAITH' as it's very first use in the Word with Abraham ,?
God told Abram,to take his only son and to kill him.....did he not have
child-like faith ?,....straightway the next morning, Abram went in obedience
to God. ...Faith : hearing ,He believed it was God' voice / Word obeying.

* Grace is,..(1) 'The Devine inffluence upon the heart,' (the Devine drawing of us to God).....remember how His Spirit drawed you /me in the
beginning ?
(2) ' and it's reflection in the Life' ( the doing of the Word )

* the Gospel: is ' the gospel of the kingdom' (Jesus said,....'This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached though- out the whole world )
And what Jesus preached was ALL of what He had to say,...about how we are to live / walk in His kingdom,...recieving His Spirit and obeying.

'' For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, ...they are the sons / children of God"

_ you said, " .....are going to be in grave trouble with the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords"

* A / The King,.....over a Kingdom...over the Kingdom of God / heaven
* Lord: ( my Lord ) ....meaning He rules,..
.
Haven't we been called / drawed into His Kingdom ?

dear one,please do not brush this off,PLEASE PRAYERFULLY do consider.

In caring kindness,
Elizabeth

sermonindex Aug 5, 2012

Righteousnew, I think you may have mistaken the intent of whoever was speaking that you are challenging here, and also that you have misunderstood the idea of faith alone. I believe sermonindex holds firmly to the belief that we are justified, sanctified and will be glorified by the finished work and the mighty hand of God...that not of ourselves, lest any man should boast.
I think you may be a bit muddled about what faith is, and that may be your confusion. I went to my husband for help, and here is what he said:

To borrow a phrase from John Calvin, faith is “being steadfast on Him (God)” no matter the circumstances.
Faith (GR: pistis) is defined by Strong’s Concordance as a “conviction of the truth of anything”. Unfortunately if we use just that definition we will be tempted to misinterpret Heb 11:6a (as well as most of Scripture). By using just this definition and not exploring further has opened the door for some to have faith in faith, or faith in prayer, or even faith in the season of Christmas (Spiritual Naturalism) to bring them peace. Since each of these ultimately places faith in human works or the creations of man, none can bring pleasure to God (Prov 16: 25There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.). The writer of Hebrews realized the danger and went on to define what he meant by faith in the second part of the verse.
Heb 11:6b for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
To define “faith”, the author of Hebrews (Note: Throughout this text, it should be assumed that this means “the author being lead by the Holy Spirit”) introduces two phrases: “believe that He is” and (believe that He is the) “rewarder of those who seek Him”.
Believe (GR: pisteuo), is defined as “to entrust, commit, to be impelled to action by a certain prerogative.” (Note: the Greek word for “believe” is the same root word used for “faith”.) Just a quick review of the English language will show that we have diluted (or polluted) the meaning of the Biblical phrase “to believe.” In our thoughts and conversations we can just as easily say “I believe the sun will rise in the East”, as well as say “I believe I will win the lottery” ..... This type of belief is based on empirical (derived from or guided by experience, reason, or experiment) facts.
The Biblical word for belief carries the additional meaning of an exclusive commitment that impels one to action. Biblical belief/faith requires us to not only accept the single Source (excluding all others Ex. 20:3) based on empirical facts (Rom 1:20) and Spiritual (non-empirical) hope (Heb 11:1), but it also requires us to submit to and take action based on the directives of the Source of our faith which is God (CF Rom 12:3)
Faith without works is only imaginary. (CF James 2:26)
“Faith is not belief without proof, but trust (to do) without reservation.” D. Elton Trueblood

sermonindex Aug 5, 2012

I read the following response from the moderator in regards to the initial thread question of "Are we justified by faith alone?":
"Our security is in Christ alone. BUT THE SCRIPTURES DO NOT TEACH FAITH ALONE. For faith apart from works is dead. Faith also needs to be active for demons have faith but do not live in righteousness. Faith also needs to have a voice we need to confess Christ before others. Faith also needs to rest and trust daily and be reckoned upon." (quote from sermonindex: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45297&forum=36&55 )

While his answer may seem correct, it is in fact 100% wrong and misleading. This is the false gospel spoken of explicitly in Galatians, and the other epistles.

RighteousNow, brother because you addressed this to me personally I will respond personally and I hope I can clarify these things for you. I do share the caution a few brothers here alluded to in "rebuking" It is not our job to rebuke men especially in christian leadership in local churches, the scriptures tell us to go to the elders with 2-3 witnesses and trying to think the best of them before seeing what their true meaning or motive was. The internet is full of blogs that just accuse and trying to demean men before even meeting them or trying to come to them privately. Such things are causing damage in the body of Christ and not helping. This is a very good clip of brother Paul Washer sharing about this problem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVN4R6Vi80

here is my quote that you are speaking about:

"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." - James 2:24
"For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.” - Matthew 12:37
"and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." - Romans 3:24
"For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law." - Romans 3:28
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," - Romans 5:1
"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" - Romans 5:9
In the above passages I believe it is clearly stated in scriptures.
1. We are justified by faith that comes along with works. If works are not present in a faith that it is not true faith. It is not the works that save someone but the true faith that is active with works. James 2:24
2. Jesus taught that we are justified by our words, with our mouth of confession of believing in His Name, he will mention us before the Father and His holy angels. Faith is therefore not silent it speaks. Matthew 12:37
3. It is also taught in scriptures that we are justified as a free gift that cannot be earned. It is 100% free and can only be accepted and acted upon. Romans 3:24
4. The works of the law will never justify any. So we must be justified apart from the law and its works. Therefore our justification looks to Christ who came as a new covenant, new promise to us from God. Romans 3:28
5. We are justified through faith. So it is not a one time belief that saves us but our justification is based upon a continual believing in Christ and His redemption until the end. We cannot ever be free from needing His grace. Romans 5:1
6. We have been justified and make righteous to God through the blood of Christ. And we will be saved from the coming wrath and judgment of God as we abide in Christ and His atonement for us which will produce an active faith daily. Romans 5:9
Our security is in Christ alone. But the scriptures do not teach faith alone. For faith apart from works is dead. Faith also needs to be active for demons have faith but do not live in righteousness. Faith also needs to have a voice we need to confess Christ before others. Faith also needs to rest and trust daily and be reckoned upon.

I stated: "Our security is in Christ alone." I believe this whole-heartily only Christ saves, only He is our security. It is His blood that cleanses and saves us from our sins only.

"But the scriptures do not teach faith alone." there is no specific scripture that states we are saved by "Faith alone" this does not mean we are not saved by faith but rather we need to see what the scripture says clearly on this subject.

"Faith" is not just a belief of a doctrine or a mental assent. Faith means a believing of something that is not seen and living as if it was. Thus biblical faith does not see Christ but believes He is seen and lives as if it was so. Having faith in the blood and "finished work of Christ" always acts upon it in daily life, it is not just a mental assent to such.

"Faith also needs to be active for demons have faith but do not live in righteousness." This is an important biblical idea that demons know God is true, they know Christ is the son of God for they confessed him readily on earth. They confessed that paul the apostle was preaching the way of salvation. But demons do not obey God, that belief does not regenerate them because they do not want to love and obey God.

My friend, I trust the Lord will encourage you as you read the word to see the truths of scripture that even preachers do not preach. Faith will produce a change of a life of works and if a believer is not becoming holy then he is not born of God no matter how much theology he knows or confesses.

J

joliboy11 Aug 6, 2012

Yes, I new churches who are like the Galatians - it just leads to legalism and bondage and not to holiness.

But sermonindex is not like that,
If we take alone the Book of James, it will cost a problem... James believe in salvation by faith alone. Faith Alone in Christ..

read Hebrews 11.

Salvation is not faith + works(by this I'm not talking just about the Law of Moses but other non-Biblical teaching). Even something 'biblical' can be use in legalism.

What Paul's warning to Galatians in verse 3 is very serious but again, sermonindex in not like that...

"to paraphrase Thomas a Kempis, 'I had rather exercise faith than know the definition thereof.'" - A. W. Tozer