Heh 1::1 says God spoke through the prophets in times past. Today in the New Covenant God is speaking through his Son Jesus. That revelation is contained in the New Testament. So why do we need prophets today?
Posted by Bearmaster.
Oh! Dear Saints,
I am not sure if this question is raised in objection to the prophet's ministry today, or in support of; but I can't help but respond briefly.
The apostle Paul makes abundantly clear that all of the ministry gifts will continue "until we all come to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto the perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (Eph. 4:13).
Whether we employ them or not is up to us, unfortunately. The prophetic gift is essential for various things, just as the other ministry calls are; but one of the most outstanding things is that God will often us the prophet to speak a "now word," to the body - whether it has to do with future events, or a present-hour need for the body. The pastor/teacher (whether one or two people) will teach through the scripture, and the prophet will certainly use the scripture too, but more than that, he will also hear from God and share with the body those things God wants to speak to His people in the immediate hour. And of course, whatever he speaks should be confirmed (have a witness spiritually) by others with the ministry gifts before it is actually accepted by the whole body.
When our Lord was hear teaching, He would sometimes say, "He who has ears to hears, listen." When He went away He said the Spirit would both hear from the Father and speak what He says, teaching us and guiding us into all truth (John 16:7-15).
After our Lord ascended to heaven, He spoke back to the apostle John who was suffering on the Isle of Patmos for Christ's namesake. To each of the seven churches that He spoke to through John (who was acting in the prophets gift), our Lord said: "He who has ears to hear, listen to what the SPIRIT IS SAYING to the churches" (Rev. 2-3)
Notwithstanding the validity of the gift, it has been abused, misused and maligned like all other gifts; but that doesn't mean that God does not still give it, or that we should avoid exercising it if we have it.
I am very thankful that He has given me that gift to operate under His direction on many occasions. At the same time, I accept and operate in that gift with great humility and care - knowing that when we claim to actually speak in God's behalf in that way we are taking on a great responsibility that may possibly have great consequences.
I hope this has shed a little light on the subject for you, brother.
The primary thrust of the book of Hebrews is to establish to the Hebrew church, who had all of their lives lived under the old covenant, the superiority of the new covenant. Hence the opening words of the letter. This is not a commentary on the validity or non-validity of the new covenant ministry gift of the prophet.
Paul, in Ephesians 4, points to five ascention gifts that were given, by Christ, to the church upon His return to the Father. (Some see pastor / teacher as one gift and say there are four gifts. Maybe so.) During Paul's ministry we see that prophets were very active in the church. Recall Agabus for one. Judas and Silas were prophets.
All five (or four) of these gifts working in the church are necessary if the body is to come into full maturity. These gifts are given to the body.
The prophet, specifically, can sometimes foretell future events just as Agabus foretold Paul's arrest. Prophets also speak forth the word of the Lord in an authority and timeliness that is, I think, unique to the gift of the prophet. God may also deal with a prophet about things that are out of order in the body.
I understand that there are those who would deny the gift of prophet and of apostle in the body today. I think it is interesting that the gift of pastor is mentioned once in the entirety of the New Testament (shepherd a few times but only by somewhat shaky inference referring to a pastor), yet most every church has a pastor. The prophet is mentioned clearly as a New Testament reality several times in the book of Acts, yet we rarely hear of a man being a prophet.
There are many abuses of spiritual authority by men and women who are in the church world. Prophet so-and-so or Apostle so-and-so for titles sake is prevalent. But then again, pastor or reverend so-and-so is often wearing the title for the sake of notoriety, power, and money as well. But the abuse does not negate the valid and genuine. The proper order for the maturing of the body is to have these gifts actively ministering to the body so that the body can be fully equipped to minister.
But Hebrews 1:1 does say that God spoke to the forefathers through the prophets. This would be under the Old Covenant. Today we have God speaking to us by his Son Jesus. His words are found in the New Testament. Found in the four gospels and the writers such as the Apostles who wrote under the Holy Spirit.
We have the Holy pirit who brings his prophetic scriptures to life in our soul. So I ask with the revelation of the New Testament and the Holy Spirit. That is we have been given the prophetic word. Why do we need prophets?
If anything Jesus warns us in Mat. 24 that false prophets will come and do signs and wonders to deceive the elect if it were possible. So how do we test false prophets? Is it not through the prophetic scripture itself?
Bearmaster.
I am aware he church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. But in light of the New Testament revelation made available. Do those offices still continue today. Eph. 4 says it is a foundation suggesting that we believers are being added as living stones. In other words the foundation was established in the first century when the church was being formed. But now God gas given all believers the Holy Spirit and the New Testament. Also all believers have access to God.
I suppose in some sense that apostle and prophet continue as believers go forth and declare God's truth through the scriptures. But I am coming to the conclusion that first century prophets are not operating in the twenty first century church. Even in the 1040 window where the Spirit moves more freely. The emphasis is more on the prophetic word of scripture. The gift of prophet does nit seem to operate in these churches.
Just my thoughts. Still fleshing this out.
Bearmaster.
I understand your frustration, Bearmaster.
It's no secret who "Proclaimit" is, as it's in his signature. When his message was the Featured Sermon of that month, that message was very good and for one of the few times that I mentioned to Greg, it surely was a good word.
As far as "forum prophets" - as they say in NY - fahgedaboutit. If there comes a genuine prophet - they'll be shut down by the prophet wannabes every time.
I mention brother Proclaimit because if he hadn't put his name in his signature, his words would be shot down eventually as well.
But I find that it's all the more true, when anyone does actually give a future tense word or a word that touches on eschatology.
I 'tried' on Mr. amrkelly's thread to say that the Whole Body of Christ has the advantage of John 16:13 etc - on his thread on the Article section on page 3 but what I wrote was shot down as well.
That thread also says that only men can be blessed with one of the 5 callings of Eph 4. Someone should have told Deborah that.
I understand your frustration Brother. Very much so - but in a Good Church assembly - face to face with a good Pastor - GOD does use prophets in the Body -- it's just on the internet - it can't happen and the ones that I've seen that have their own websites and call themselves "prophets" are nothing more than hirelings or prophet wannabes.
Jesus warned us that this would happen in these last days - but in a good fellowship, with good elders and all - a prophet can help turn the whole spirit of that Church around and a good Pastor will appreciate that help from above, even if comes from a prophetess that knows her Scriptural place as a woman.
The 5 callings of Eph 4 do still exist, Brother Bear --- but we see it more in Biblical assemblies/fellowships of the Saints together - face to face and protected by good men of GOD. Not in the 'free-for-all' atmosphere of internet websites and forums.
Shalom, Brother.
Whenever I see this topic/subject brought up anywhere it makes me grimace. I say this because I those who believe in Prophets yet produce not evidence. With the various churches I have attended the only group that supports and lifts up prophets are the Charismatics because it gives an extra authority to the 'church' yet many of these 'prophets' aren't prophets and they aren't even watchmen.
I have stated on the forum that I don't believe prophets exist today though I believe watchmen exist. By my saying that it seems that maybe I don't 'believe the Word of God'. Well, for me, I am a Thomas in this regard. Point a prophet to me today and I will acknowledge that at least a Prophet exists today. Up until I find just alot of talk except in the Charismatic church and I don't believe them just because of their character.
John
John, you've been where I was. Yes, some no-longer-there websites will do that to you.
Just wanted to say, that there are conservative Presbyterian churches that believe in the calling or the gift of prophecy. The calling and the gift are not the same thing - but it's not just Charismatics that believe they and it exist. But with these conservative Presby churches - there's a bit more discernment and testing, "according to The Word."
Peace, Brother.
In the book of Ephesians 4:11 the KJV reads....
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"
The saints are not perfect and the ministry still needs work so prophets are still needed...
There is a gift of prophecy and then there is the Prophet. It is the Prophet that I am in dismay over.
I would go with Deadn that the gifting of prophet continues today. Perhaps that gifting even continues at the corpirate level as all have access to the New Testament and all can proclaim the word of God as this is what the prophet does. I might add that the giftings if the Holy Spirit are gender neutral. The promise of Joel 2 is that your sons and daughters will prophesy. This suggest more of a corporate approach to the prophetic gift.
But to suggest that certain people are designated prophet or even apostle is to breed a spiritual elitism. The same could be said for pastor, teacher, or perhaps even evangelist. It seems these gifts have more of a corpirate role.
I find myself looking at a modified cessionist position on some of these gifts. Or the people who claim to be apostles and prophets. The New Testament canon and the Holy Spirit gives us all access to God. So in some sense all of us are prophets in the corpirate sense.
Again I am not aware these gifts of apostle and prophet operating in the 1040 church.
Just my thoughts.
Bearmaster.
Bear, I personally don't see any problem with your stance. It doesn't make any difference whether anyone believes in these 5 callings or not and anyone that would force this on you has some pride issues to deal with.
Whatever GOD calls someone to do or say - just do it or say it. No one needs a 'title' to work for The LORD and do what He leads us to do. If it's from Him, just deliver it and go on your way. I've seen where some want to be acknowledged for their words and that's not the right attitude. If the words came from Him - they're not 'your' words anyway - so why would you want to be 'acknowledged'? If The LORD heals someone through you - it's still HIS doing.
If you give a word and it's rejected - just do the same as if it weren't rejected .... just move on to whatever else He's leading you to do. None of us should be seeking recognition. And all of us should be pointing solely to Him and to His Word, the scriptures and not seeking attention to ourselves in any way. So, there goes all need for titles and Eph 4:12-32 should be our heart's motive for all that we do together as His Body.
GOD Bless Bearmaster.
But Hebrews 1:1 does say that God spoke to the forefathers through the prophets. This would be under the Old Covenant. Today we have God speaking to us by his Son Jesus. His words are found in the New Testament. Found in the four gospels and the writers such as the Apostles who wrote under the Holy Spirit.We have the Holy pirit who brings his prophetic scriptures to life in our soul. So I ask with the revelation of the New Testament and the Holy Spirit. That is we have been given the prophetic word. Why do we need prophets?
If anything Jesus warns us in Mat. 24 that false prophets will come and do signs and wonders to deceive the elect if it were possible. So how do we test false prophets? Is it not through the prophetic scripture itself?
Jesus was the pivot point between the old and new covenants. Now Jesus has ascended to the Father and all believers can hear the Holy Spirit of God speaking to them. But the context of this statement is not a statement on the passing away of prophets. It simply says that the way that God spoke to his people up to the time of Christ was through prophets, but now God's son, in the flesh, has come and spoken. The letter goes on to establish Christ as the priest of a better covenant.
God has designed this thing so that we are never independent, but are always interdependent. I cannot do this thing alone. I am part of the body of Christ. I am not a body unto myself. So I do not have the whole picture.
A case in point is the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit given in 1 Cor.. One may be given a word of wisdom that God ordains to be spoken to me. I might ask the question, "Why do I need that ministry? Cannot I have the Holy Spirit speak to me directly? Am I not spiritual?" But I realize that I am not a man unto myself, spiritual though I may be. I am part of the body and absolutely need the ministry of the other parts of the body.
As to the foundation of the apostles and prophets, that must also be taken in context. I believe the context points to the fact that the church was foretold by the prophets and was established through the original apostles. That is, I believe, the foundation that is spoken of. Again, the fact that I used concrete in the foundation of my house does not mean that I cease to use concrete for the remainder of the construction.
What do you mean by a "modified cessationalist view"?
What I see in the New Testament is a passing away of men who specifically were designated Apostles and Prophets. One would be hard pressed to say that specifically that apostles such as Paul or prophets such as Agabuses are operating in the church today. I believe God raised up such to be the foundation of the church.
What I do see is that prophetic giftings are operating but more applicable in the corporate body of the saints. I believe JiG best summed it in her post. Acts 2 had the Holy Spirit falling on everybody in that upper room. They went out, men and women, declaring the wonders of God. Prophesying if you will. Were they prophets? For that hour they were. Did they continue to be prophets afterward. Probably not.
Phillip had 4 unmarried daughters who prophesied. Did they hold the office of prophet. I don't think so.
What I am trying to flesh out is the office or calling of prophet and gifting of prophet. Do we have men who are called to be Apostles and Prophets as Paul and Agabus today. No I don't think so. I do not belueve Apostles and Prophets operate as Paul and Agabus did. Not today. But I do believe the corporate gifting of prophet operates in the body today.
Just my thoughts.
Bearmaster.
.
I see what you mean Bearmaster. Yours is not at all an uncommon view. I would propose a question or two, not necessarily because I am seeking an answer, but more as a question that I would encourage you to ponder about what you have said.
First, what scriptural justification do I have for my point of view? Is my position clear from scripture or is it based more on my own observations?
Second, Does scripture indicate that the gift of apostle and prophet have been set aside and at what point in time does scripture teach that these gifts were set aside? It does seem to me that Eph. 4 would demand that if the apostle and prophet are set aside, then the pastor, teacher, and evangelist must also be set aside as they all five are given until a certain event takes place. If this is the case then it seems to me we must assume that the church is already in the unity of the faith and has grown in stature to full maturity.
Third, if scripture does not indicate that these gifts have passed away, must we not assume they are valid and operable even if we do not see them in action or if we see a perversion of these gifts being the most predominant manifestation? After all, false prophets will arise in the last days.
You know where I stand on the issue. My goal is not to be argumentative. I simply want to throw those questions out for you to consider as you think about this issue.
As to the gift and the office, I am not totally sure I have full understanding. I do know that the gift is God gracing the life of an individual with the function of a prophet in the body of Christ. This function is a full time job if you will. A prophet cannot cease to be a prophet, although that person could turn away from God and no longer function, having lost fellowship with God. The gift of prophecy is a moving of the Holy Spirit upon a believer to deliver a specific word of prophecy at a specific time and is not resident with the individual. In other words, the person may conceivably be given a word of prophecy once in their life and never again. But the prophet will find this a regular flow in their lives and will learn to operate in this type of gifting on an ongoing basis.
I hope that this gives you something to consider. May God richly bless you brother Bearmaster.
Wayne wrote: " Holy Spirit upon a believer to deliver a specific word of prophecy at a specific time and is not resident with the individual."" "" But the prophet will find this a regular flow in their lives and will learn to operate in this type of gifting on an ongoing basis."""
It is pretty simple, if prophecy is given and does not come true, we all know what God does with false prophets. So the gift of prophecy given by the Holy Spirit, who is not a false prophet, will come true, for the upbuilding of the Body of Christ, all else is of false prophets.
A "regular flowing prophet", must be very careful and can be influenced by spiritual forces and powers in high places. Check out what the prophets of God speak to. Only what God does or is intending to do.
A foretelling prophet is no longer needed. "prophet"); by analogy, an inspired speaker; by extension, a poet:--prophet. We all know that the Word of God is complete and cannot be added to, but an inspired speaker prophet can and does give prophecy correct understanding of the scriptures by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Prophets be aware, lest you come under condemnation from God. If it does not come true, you are no prophet. I will not chance it unless completely proofed by the Holy Spirit of what I am speaking to, especially on an ongoing bases. Is it me or God?
In Christ: Phillip
Here's an accurate view of New Testament prophecy (at least one aspect of it):
http://preachingjesus.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/nt-prophecy-differes-from-ot-prophecy-john-piper/
The article is written by John Piper.
Among corinthian believers of apostolic age there were local prophets, not just gifts of prophecy. Corinthians 14:29, "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said."
There is absolutly no evidence anywhere in the NT that clearly supports the cessetional theology of supernatural gifts or apostolic & prophetic ministry.
Didache one of the easlist christian manuscripts beside the NT writtings, states it clearly that there were prophets in the local churches.
The book Shepherd of Hermas who was written about 2nd century from a christian named Hermas; who was the brother of the Bishop of Rome. This is an axemple of prophetic ministry.
Throughout history of the church of God there have been men of God with an authentic prophetic ministry. Just because today there is so much spurious and counterfeit gifts among the charismatic movements does not mean the authentic does not exist.
I believe that during the great persecution of the last days, God will pour out the Spirit of prophecy on many believers, who will be overcomers.
We need the prophetic ministry today because we need the testimony of Jesus.
"That which is perfect" and "that which is in part" are both singular. There is a one to one correspondence between them. When one perfect thing comes then one thing in part is done away.
And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
Zechariah 13:3-4
From the above passage, we see that the Bible anticipated a time in which there would be no true prophets, and anyone who claimed to be a prophet would be looked upon as a false prophet.
False Prophets
There are many warnings in the Bible about false prophets.
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1 John 4:1
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matthew 7:15
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:11
For false Christ's and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:22
Since there are no true prophets today, anyone who claims to be a prophet is a false prophet.
Sources of False Prophecy
If those who claim to prophesy today are not true prophets and what they speak is not from God, then what is the source of their message? In the Bible, we find two sources for the messages of false prophets.
1) Evil Spirits
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
2 Chronicles 18:21
The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.
Jeremiah 2:8
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 16:13-14
Evil spirits try to deceive people into thinking that they are receiving a message from God, when in fact the evil spirits themselves are the source of the message.
2) A Person’s own heart
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
Jeremiah 23:16
How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
Jeremiah 23:26
Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Jeremiah 14:14
Another source of false prophecy is a person’s own heart. I think that there are two primary ways in which this happens.
1) Intentionally. Sometimes people just plain make it up as they go along. Maybe they are trying to impress others with how spiritual they are. There is a real temptation to do this in charismatic circles, because those who "prophesy" are often held in the highest esteem.
2) Unintentionally. Another way that this is done is that a person misinterprets their own thoughts (the voice of their own spirit) for the voice of God.
Summary
1) A prophet was someone who spoke for God. Their words were not their own, but the very words of God.
2) A prophet in the Old Testament was the same as a prophet in the New Testament. They both spoke for God and predicted the future.
3) A prophet is one who prophesies, and one who prophesies is a prophet. Those who went around prophesying all the time were prophets.
4) The Bible gives us two tests to detect false prophets. First, a prophet must be 100% accurate. They must never miss. Those who "make mistakes" are false prophets. Secondly, a prophet’s message must be biblical. It must lead us into truth and following the God of the Bible - not into following a false God or into ERROR. Those who give a prophecy containing false doctrine are false prophets.
5) God is angry with those who claim to be speaking for Him that he did not send. Anyone who "presumptuously" claims to speak for God will be dealt with most severely by Him if they do not repent.
6) Prophecy was in part. That is - it was only a partial revelation of God’s truth. When God’s complete revelation in scripture came, there was no more need for that which was in part, and prophecy passed away.
7) The Bible contains many warnings to beware of false prophets. The Bible anticipated a time in which there would no longer be any prophets.
8) There are two sources of false prophecy: A) Evil spirits - who try to deceive people with supposed messages from God; and B) A person’s own heart - either by making up the message or by mistaking their own thoughts (the voice of their own spirit) for the voice of God.
What will you believe? Will you believe what the Bible says about prophets and prophecy? By James Frye.
IN Christ by whom God speaks to His rebirthed sons': Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, (((((Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,))))) whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Who is now been made our "wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, faith, life and redemption:" Phillip
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What religions depend on prophets? Islam and Mormon
Brigham Young and Mohammad who both had many wifes youngest being 6 and 12. that should be enough
Phillip
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