Hi Brothertom I want to offer another perspective on some of that you wrote.
RE: Brothertom wrote ///.."Who will deliver me from this body of death?"///
Paul in Chapter 7 gives the answer the conclusion to Romans 7 ///I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord///
That is who delivers from this body of death.
Again Romans 7 is clearly, unarguably a Man not living under grace but living under the Law! It is not Paul contridicting everything that he just taught in ch 6
RE: brothertom wrote ///Does it sound like someone who has attained perfection on Earth?...Don't think so.///
The first part of Romans is Pauls Letter combatting some Jews that are slanderously accusing the Gospel as being a gospel that taught people that it was Ok to continue in sin so that Grace might abound. In which he clearly replies God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Pauls entire argument in the Book of Romans is that the Gospel is supperior to the Law of Sin. The Gospel is able to achieve what striving to keep the Law is incapable of
doing. He says of the Law "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law"
This is Paul, remember what he said of His pre regenerated Pharassee Life ///touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.///
how can we imply that Paul whom says of the the law before his conversion that he was blameless (of course we no that was only outwardly and not inwardly it was a romans 7 man)
How can we say that he who is now in the middle of his argument of the superiorety of the Gospel is claiming that the failed life of romans 7 is his experience as a Christian.
Romans 7 is clearly a first person narrative of a past tense event
start at verse 9 "For I was alive without the law once"
He is saying once apoun a time (past tense) I was a live without the Law (Paul as an infant,innocent no guilt,no law thus no sin) But as Pauls grew in age and understanding he started to Hold an understanding of good and evil. Being brought up as a devout Jew He was taught the Law and the commandments but what he experienced is "the commandment came, sin revived", That is Sin Revived from his parents generation to his own thru being brought up in a world seperate from God and with Law "For as in Adam all die" This was the point that Paul lost innocence he died He became fully aware of his nakedness, He says at this point "and I died."
From this past tense intro he continues the rest of the narrative (Past Tense)(pre conversion)(the Bondage under the Law) The rest of the Chapter is clearly Past tense up untill verse 25 when He gives the conclusion and solution to His past tense narrative.
Re Brothertom writes ///.............and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." ....mmmmmm; You cannot do the things you would? Would that imply that we actually have an evil Adam nature?///
If It is an evil Adam nature that causes us to sin than why in the world did Adam and Eve created with a good nature ever choose to sin in the first place?? and how in the World was Jesus whom we all should agree was created with a perfect nature ever able to be tempted??
Re: Brothertom writes ///This was not about how anyone LIVES; it is everything about who one IS! There is no cure for us on this Earth, except that Cross that we must bare to deny our wicked nature and slay it.///
I want to offer another perspective. Does the Bible teach that we are to spend our lives at working at slaying our flesh Daily or rather put faith in the Gospel message that I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
RE: brothertom wrote ///To believe that we can attain unto sinless perfection, is to imply that we can be exorcised from our sin nature; which is a fantasy. We crucify it daily, and struggle with it until the day we die, That is it's nature; to subdue you.///
To believe that we can not have victory over sin is a sure way to stay in the bondage of sin ( I spent years in this defeat because of those Augustinian doctrines that are so strongly taught in our modern christian culture)
RE:///struggle with it until the day we die///
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? (((God forbid.)))
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
RE Brothertom writes ///So, if you believe this, please show me one person who is perfect; I want to see him or her, and chat for a while. Surely it would be like fellow-shipping Jesus Himself; you know? sinless and perfect and all.///
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall
It seems clear that we can never reach a point where we are incapable of sin.
But I will ask you this, Is there one sin that we have to committ?? name just one sin that God has not provided a way to escape??
Lets stop looking at ours and others circumstances and lets start believing the scripture on such issues and have our circumstances transformed.
RE:brothertom wrote /// I am being cynical, sorry, but please reason this out with me, so you may see it's folly. Respectfully, Brothertom///
Lets reason together friend
