Prophetic word from Art Katz

Thank you for transcribing this for us, Brother Kire.

The point is, the multiple warnings to 'this' generation and this generation will not pass until all that HE told us will come, does come.
More Christians have gotten credit cards and have depended on the government since 1990 than any generation before them.
If we can't see the very rapid moral decline in every area of life in our own country just since our own childhood, there's something obscuring our spiritual vision.

Maranatha!

"In a word, I am anticipating that we are going to see in this decade the alignment of the religious forces that will prevail until the end of the age, the age may end by the year of 2000, but if it goes on a little before that or a little longer than that, be assured that what happens between now and that time, this ten year period will cast the major and basic formation of the thing that will prevail until the coming of the Lord. Art Katz.

I wonder in what sense this word and most of the prophecy could in any sense be called truly prophetic. Sayings such as “alignment of religious forces” sound interesting, but the substance if there is any must attend to a condition which has existed in the world since the beginning of that work of iniquity which is characterised by unity of purpose and must be to do with Satan himself. Alignment means coming into visibility of purpose. Alignment of religious forces must in this context mean a visible and effectual working of wickedness for a purpose. Jesus taught us that if Satan’s kingdom were divided in any way it would fall. It isn’t divided and it will not fall until Christ Himself brings it down. Even then a season of influence will prevail after the 1000 year kingdom which will be characterised by men directly and knowingly taking sides against Christ with Satan. Then all opposition will be completely destroyed.

All religious forces have been aligned from the beginning. In our age these forces first became visible through the Pharisees who accused Jesus of labouring in the power of Satan. Thus they rejected God’s will for their lives and have perished. John spoke about the spirit of antichrist having already come into the world. Paul spoke about the mystery of the working of iniquity and identified in that working, a certain and clear outcome. This outcome was and is to be the Man of Sin. The one peculiar outcome in this time is the emergence of the apostate church. Not a false church, but an apostate church. In short just as it will take 1000 years of the reign of Christ in visibility to press some, perhaps many men into open and certain rebellion with Satan, so it will take an apostate church to make the Man of Sin possible. If the church did not become apostate the Man of Sin could not arise. He would be rejected openly and fully by all saints in their speech and conduct so that even the world itself would not be able to accept that which was false in exchange for that which is true. The prophetic nature of Scriptures takes account of and reveals the reality of the time in which these things are to happen, so they therefore reveal the overarching condition of the church at that time. Just as the overarching condition of the world that will follow Anti-Christ is revealed. There is nothing prophetic about stating the obvious that’s for certain. However, what we say must attend to reality and we should not begin to sound like new age prophets.

To have benefited from this prophecy one would have had to have been a recipient at the time. Only then could one have known if it in some way drew your attention to realities which you had otherwise missed. However, the words extend their day and press into years. Herein lays the folly of such prophecies. The opening paragraph is already proven false and so today at least it inclines to a rejection of the whole word. I say false and I mean false. It’s no good mincing words. If we will insist on setting dates and times to events, which measure belong to God Himself, we will always make fools of our selves. If we do then we are in fact claiming to be prophets of God, and not simply possessed of a spirit of prophecy. In the same way if we are claiming to be prophets of God and what we say does not come to pass, we are proven false.

The New Testament prophetic ministry should not be visible in this way. The prophetic discerning spirit which Art refers to should be just that, discernment. If the prophet is able to discern and out of that is able to Minister God’s Word to the saints, until Christ is fully formed within those saints, they will have accomplished that for which they were called. All the rest is just vanity. All prophecy which sets out times and seasons should be in the context of Scripture. Only then will it have any deeper benefit in stirring up believers to seek after God so as to please God.

Andrew - this link is for you -

http://www.christianvoice.org.uk/?p=3882

The title is inaccurate. The Manhattan [NY] Faith House was the first.

What Kire posted was just a part of a sermon by Art Katz and Kire could tell us which sermon it came from.

If you had ever attended one of Art's speaking engagements, I think you'd adjust your view of this man.

From first paragraph - "... be assured that what happens between now and that time, this ten year period will cast the major and basic formation of the thing that will prevail until the coming of the Lord."

If someone was watching the events coming out of Washington, D.C. from 1990-2000 and keeping track of the Executive Orders written and what the Presidents were doing that the general public were not aware of and what they were setting up that was the foundation of the one world government and religion and through New York City - they'd know that what this paragraph is saying, happened.

Most of which has been discussed on this forum over the last 7 yrs.

"The Kingdom vs. Patriotism" ~ Art Katz

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=10795

Thank you for the link Anne. I live just a few miles from the intended abomination which is referred to in that article. I also lived in Leicester where there has been a clear and visible move to create this so-called merging of spiritual forces for the past 25 years. It may be difficult to understand but this “merging” began in the 1st century and culminated in Constantine embracing the Christian Faith with all of the diabolical consequences which have resulted from that one man’s delusion. Rome is the visibility and wickedness is the object.

What this centre in Truro represents is no different in substance to Rome itself. The only distinction is that Rome once terrorised men into subjugation to its authority. All religious beliefs have been accommodated into Rome precisely because Rome had once the power of Kings and princes who could wage war on behalf of Rome. Today in Europe more princes and Kings have a mind for Rome than for Christ Himself. Their ability to “grip” their peoples with Roman heresies and subject them to Roman influence is no less a reality today than it was 500 years ago. This business with Rome attends to Scriptural prophecy and the business of drawing attention to a recent merging of spiritual and religious powers is a new age focus, having more to do with those who are alive now, and desire to see religious unity now, than with the only Scriptural measure of these things. The substance has existed for nearly 2000 years and its conclusion won’t be found in Truro, but Jerusalem. Going up to Truro to curse a folly will be a simple matter. Anyone who is minded to go up to Jerusalem will find that it will cost them their lives.

As or Art Katz I don’t have an opinion of the man. I have never met him not do I know him, nor do I, nor will I follow men. Neither, having read the OP do I reject the entirety of what he has shared. It must be true that in sharing at that time Art was seeking to encourage and warn against dependence on a system of buying and selling which represents and is represented by men who are increasingly given over to the love of money with all of its consequences. My motive in posting wasn’t to diminish Art’s ministry or to “prove” that he was false. It was to draw attention to the prophetic ministry which I believe will come back into remembrance and understanding in our day for the express purpose of proving God’s will and purposes in our day. This will include the problem of apostasy; the coming into visibility of the Man of Sin, the necessary persecution of the church; as well as the preservation of those who would go the narrow way. It is a separating out of those who forsaking everything, will make themselves ready.

Only in America do men say that the one world government is in America. Or that the basis for the one world government is in America. Those who have succumbed to the heretical and doctrinal madness that is epidemic in American no doubt believe it too. However, the Scriptures give no reference to America whatsoever. End time events in Scriptures have to do with all those nations which surround Israel and the Mediterranean sea or the Great Sea. American doesn’t need to be in Scriptures because it was founded for a singular purpose and because of its own actions and conduct will be entirely brought down and weakened beyond anything presently imagined. America contains the seeds of its own rise and its own destruction. It will stand for all that which is foolish and vain in our day. It will be a visible and terrible modern day Sodom and Gomorrah. It will be a testimony to men and a sobering outcome to the nations of our day. But it will have nothing to do with Scriptural end time prophecies and events. This is what I believe. And I accept that I may be completely wrong or misguided.

As for the events coming out of Washington DC in the 90’s I have no doubt that Art discerned right. My reference to falsehood had to do with the underlying claim and is more substantive than a mere decade in the life of a nation. It was to do with “the end of the age” reference. No such end has come. All prophecies which base their substance on speaking for God must be subject to God, Who alone knows the end of the age. America's conceit as a nation has driven it to thinking it is the teacher of nations. It has taught nothing but greed and individualism. It has become the curse of nations. It had the beginnings and opportunity of no other nation, save perhaps for Israel itself. From the beginning it has failed to achieve what it set out to do. God Himself has intervened several times and has given the USA a chance to shine. Yet it has always gone back to the mire of the love of money and self adoration. Yet for all this reality the USA will have little if anything to do with the real end of this age.

True and False Prophets - Part 1 and True and False Prophets - Part 2

on this page -

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=173&min=540&orderby=titleA&show=20

I don’t know if the link to Art’s message on the prophetic man was intended for me Anne but I have listened to the first of the two parts. The depth and sincerity and the ease in which Art speaks about the things of God, especially this subject of the prophetic man is evidently a blessing. I would simply say that Art is with the Lord Jesus now and therefore he can’t keep on speaking out of his heart and mind those things which are necessary for this day. By his own understanding the prophetic man must of necessity be as real as the word he speaks and brings. The burden and calling therefore must pass to this generation of men who still draw breath. It is almost inconceivable that anyone speaking today would be able to say the same things which others have already said. The nature of the prophetic man and its characteristics no doubt will not change. The day is increasing and will come suddenly. The warnings of the past arising from the Scripture and therefore God's dealings with Israel will continue. Yet the need to speak to the condition of the hearer changes even as the hearer changes. Given the very nature of the time in which we live, that which God would speak to us will be according to what we become as a result of what we believe today. It is always in the nature of believers and men everywhere to turn aside to listen to prophetic men, even though many will in the end hate them and reject them even unto death. The world will run after and then seek to murder those who lead them astray or bring them into economic or political chaos, yet by the time wisdom comes they will have lost everything. Those who know God will take up stones in an instant. For the speaker this amounts to nothing more than what they already know in their hearts. For the hearer it may come as an unexpected outcome.

If a teacher or a prophet is fulfilling God’s call in their lives they will by very substance of their calling direct the hearts and minds of men to God and Christ. If this was true in the past it is even truer today because of the increase in wickedness and the open rebellion of men. God’s dealings with Israel which Art spoke about in the first part of the link you provided seems to sum up the idea very well. Today we can add the Lord’s warning that these last days will be characterised by falsehood. Note fake, but false. The division being, “turned aside” from God or “turned” to God for God’s own glory, this is wisdom. Just to be clear sister, I have never listened to this message before. You understand.

I want to thank Greg Gordon [ SI ] for even considering Art Katz to be included in the wealth of Preachers listed here. Everything about Bro.Katz was controversial and often caustic, because Art had to tear down the thrones; sometimes almost to a fault.

This was a wonderful exhortation/teaching/insight [ part one of the audio posted ], and I believe the original post too. I believe that it should be read in the opening preaching at the coming Persecution conference at Atlanta.

Concerning that; Art spoke of an "Alignment" of religious forces:

"In a word, I am anticipating that we are going to see in this decade the alignment of the religious forces that will prevail until the end of the age, the age may end by the year of 2000, but if it goes on a little before that or a little longer than that, be assured that what happens between now and that time, this ten year period will cast the major and basic formation of the thing that will prevail until the coming of the Lord."

Have you considered that This was the age of Bill Clinton and the bold introduction of Anti-Christ Marxist and immoral ideas as the norm for America? This is what we battle now in Obama's anti-God war on everything holy and Godly. Clinton founded the Radical left in the Democrats, who carried the war into Obama's hands, and Clinton flourished in that exact 10 year period.

Did you consider that the 10 year period that Art prophesied of ended with a bang: The fall of the towers! 9-11!!? This ushered in the rise of Islam; Al Qaeda and the dominance of the Muslim Brotherhood!..Isaiah 30:

" And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the Lord bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound."

The towers falling and the end of the age tied in; right there in the scripture. Art prophesied it to come. This will prevail, as Art said; "Even to the coming of the Lord!"

"I believe that these are the two religious powers that now shape our AGE: "the major and basic formation of the thing that will prevail until the coming of the Lord."..Katz

This came to pass, in Spades. The Religious Power on the Left is Anti-Christ Socialism, which hates the church and God with her, and on the right, Satanic Islam, which hates the church and God with her. Both are striving to destroy her, and both desire to persecute her unto annihilation.

I believe that there will be a melding of the two, and that the mark of the Beast and buying and selling will be connected to whether someone bows the knee to Allah, and his Sharia order, or not. The refusal will result in death, as is already happening now in some countries by order of law.

I would like to comment later about Art's deep insight into the function of the prophetic office, which I appreciate, and am somewhat stunned as to how anyone could grasp the pre-conditions/circumstances as he did.

I submit below, a word that I had about this future event and time period that Art believed was on the way.

http://brideinthewilderness.blogspot.com/2012/03/justice-and-glory-americas-time-in.html#comment-form

Did you consider that the 10 year period that Art prophesied of ended with a bang: The fall of the towers! 9-11!!? This ushered in the rise of Islam; Al Qaeda and the dominance of the Muslim Brotherhood!..Isaiah 30:

" And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the Lord bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound."

The towers falling and the end of the age tied in; right there in the scripture. Art prophesied it to come. This will prevail, as Art said; "Even to the coming of the Lord!" Brother Tom.

"I believe that these are the two religious powers that now shape our AGE: "the major and basic formation of the thing that will prevail until the coming of the Lord."..Katz

Where does wisdom really lie in seeking to understand the end of this age? Given that it has not arrived yet we would have to ask how it can be said to have come. Before this age ends many Scriptures are yet to be fulfilled. Moreover whatever we say or prophecy if it does not include the simplicity of Scriptural prophecy expressed accurately we will simply be led astray into vanity which is a distraction at best and a delusion at worst. The passage from Isaiah is entirely to do with Israel as the passage clearly shows. The word is “therefore the Lord longs to be gracious to you, and therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you. For The Lord your God is a God of Justice”. The rest of the passage is the promised Messiah who will reveal Himself to Israel at His return and become their teacher. How can a terrorist act by mad men be explained as a gracious act of the Lord? Or how can the murder of thousands of people become “compassion?” The simple answer is only when the Lord Himself sets his face against Israel’s enemies and delivers them out of their hands at His return. It is the removal of the veil from the eyes of Israel in that their Teacher "will no longer hide Himself.” Compassion and grace in this sense refers to the fact that Israel is undeserving of deliverance so it becomes grace. Acts of terrorism by mad men cannot ever be called grace. They are the violent murderous actions of men serving Satan. The violence in this passage on the other hand is by the Lord’s mouth and not the hand of men. The USA is a friend of Israel not an enemy.

Therefore the LORD longs to be gracious to you, and therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you. For the LORD is a God of justice; How blessed are all those who   long for Him. O people in Zion, inhabitant in Jerusalem, you will weep no longer. He will surely be gracious to you at the sound of your cry; when He hears it, He will answer you. Although the Lord has given you bread of privation and water of oppression, He, your Teacher will no longer hide Himself, but your eyes will behold your Teacher. Your ears will hear a word behind you, “This is the way, walk in it,” whenever you turn to the right or to the left. And you will defile your graven images overlaid with silver, and your molten images plated with gold. You will scatter them as an impure thing, and say to them, “Be gone!” Then He will give you rain for the seed which you will sow in the ground, and bread from the yield of the ground, and it will be rich and plenteous; on that day your livestock will graze in a roomy pasture. Also the oxen and the donkeys which work the ground will eat salted fodder, which has been winnowed with shovel and fork. On every lofty mountain and on every high hill there will be streams running with water on the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall. The light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven days, on the day the LORD binds up the fracture of His people and heals the bruise He has inflicted. Isaiah 30:18-27

I have no idea what Art meant by “two religious powers”. But I do know that there are only two religious powers on the earth. The 1st is Israel and the 2nd is the Church of Christ. The period of government which ran for 8 years of the 10 years which Art spoke of, under President Clinton was not a religious force. It was a political confederacy of men and women who embraced political correctness and the love of money. It was a political power not a religious power. The Islamic Brotherhood is as nothing compared to Islam itself. It too is largely political and it too has to do with power. It is not a religious force regardless of their name and their stated beliefs. Islam on the other hand is a murderous spirit and despite the appearance of it, it too is not a religious force. It is a provocation and a rod permitted by God because of the condition of the 2nd religious force, the Church, at the time of its appearance in Arabia. Israel is the 1st religious force, being the True Vine, having been cut off, the Church now having been grafted in. There are only two real religious powers in this world and they are Israel and the Church. Both have their life and vitality from one God. The rest is the conceit of men and vanity. As a matter of wisdom one can easily see that the two most singular events in human history apart from the Lord’s first advent and His Second Advent are apostasy of the Church and the rise of Anti-Christ in Jerusalem. Both these events when taken together are fearful, but when come together they speak of an end time reality which even the saints cannot comprehend easily.

A little regarded passage of Scripture gives something of the uniqueness and sense of this coming together of the two covenants of God and His people. Two covenants which though separated by death in the removal of Christ’s own body is rejected by Israel and so Israel is still looking for the fulfilment of the first covenant. It has to do with King Herod and Pilate. After they had between them judged, and in their separate ways rejected responsibility for judging Christ, they became good friends for the first time. King Herod the son of the King Herod who murdered the children of Bethlehem in order to destroy the Messiah in His infancy, measured in time by the coming and the going of the Magi of the east. A man who’s neck was broken by an angel in the presence of his people because they declared him to be a god, which thing he did not rebuke or deny. Pilate the Roman Governor who had no interest in the Messiah of Israel or the Covenant of God, but who washed his hands having been caught in the trap of a Roman tradition to release a prisoner to the people. Revelations reveals how this Roman Empire and this same mind which was in King Herod come together in two men with the help and support of the Church of Rome and kings of nations. The one man claiming to be Christ and the other the False Prophet producing lying signs and wonders.

All biblical prophecies have to do with or else express a condition of men or nations or empires or even the world itself, as they stand in relation to Israel or the Church. Islam is just a rod. The USA is just a nation. The unity of purpose which characterises the end of this age was conceived of 2000 years ago when the spirit of anti-christ first came into the world, being embraced and received by wolves who went into the places of meeting of the first flocks of the Church to spy out their liberty and to bring them into bondage. In the end it will be the full and visible manifestation and appearing of one man, and his prophet, the one declaring and the other claiming to be true Christ who will complete this imprisonment, though it will by then extend to all men. There is no possibility whatsoever that the USA (New York) or England (London) or any other nation or city will somehow become exchanged for Jerusalem which is the city of the King of Israel. It is to Jerusalem that Christ will return and in Jerusalem that the anti-christ will parade himself and make abomination of desolation. To understand what is coming on the world we cannot put aside the Scriptures no matter how offended we are by the actions of wicked men. It is the actions of one man primarily which is revealed in Scripture as being of importance to the saints who live in that day. And we are not even looking to his coming. We are looking to the return of the Lord Jesus Himself.

One thing which Art spoke about as an underlying consideration was the rejection which he received at a conference in Canada when he gave the first of three presentations. The first presentation appears to have introduced a “new” thing in which Art felt led to come under a synagogue in order to learn about the deep treasures which are the possession of Israel. As a Jew myself I can see why this would be a blessing. Israel has not rejected God Himself in the sense that Israel has consciously rejected God. Israel rejected Christ the Son of God, and agreed that the consequences of that decision would be upon their own heads. The passage from Isaiah chapter thirty speaks of the grace of God in the revealing of Christ to Israel at the time of the Kingdom Come. It speaks of Israel learning to listen to the voice of Christ Jesus and no longer being inclined to listen to their own inclinations to turn to the right or the left, but to walk in obedience. I wonder whether Art was ministering into that reality in the sowing of seeds according to Isaiah chapter 30. Does anyone know what the outcome was of this desire of Art to come under a synagogue of Israel?

"Does anyone know what the outcome was of this desire of Art to come under a synagogue of Israel? "

Maybe not the outcome, but the motive possibly. Art lived at a semi-communal farm in Minnesota, and invited some Religious Jews to live there with him. His idea, though not articulated to me, was that of coming under; relationship proves love. By embracing a community, or Synagogue, then you have ample opportunity to insert your faith within it; you are no longer remote.

He sought to win by example, and provide it by more than theory, similar to the example of the Moravian Evangelists, who sold themselves into wicked foreign Slavery, and immigrate into the slave camps, to win them to Christ; To embed.

I appreciate your teaching about there being only two spiritual powers; IE: Israel and the church, but I disagree. I also concede that there are many prophesies that allude strictly to Israel alone, but that there are many that may include Israel, but are Universal in content.

The Return of Christ may advent at Jerusalem, and the Jews shall surely be rescued by Him in the Parousia/Rapture, but it is a Universal event, that changes the very fiber of time and Eternity, and is not exclusively directed to Israel and the Hebrew people. Christians everywhere will be Raptured then, in every nation tribe and tongue.

"As a matter of wisdom one can easily see that the two most singular events in human history apart from the Lord’s first advent and His Second Advent are apostasy of the Church and the rise of Anti-Christ in Jerusalem."
Amrkelly

??? This idea that the rise of the anti-Christ in Jerusalem will occur, I suppose, as He sits as God in the Holy place declaring himself god. OK...But that being one of the two most singular events in human history?

I disgree. It will happen, but it will soon be forgotten, when this one is cast alive into fire-lake soon after.

I see the Bible and the prophets as A BIGGER Word...to those even grafted in, even me and you.

...."Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called."

There is such a thing as a Universal Israel of God also:

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."

So, I often find comfort, and revelation in the prophets, and meaning that transcends even the specific words to Israel; and yes, even Isaiah 30. Also, the Lord has a habit of implanting these little tidbits ; out of time and sequence, like He was God or something. A curve ball, that on surface, doesn't seem to fit; I think of Psalm 22, and Jesus's word about the Abomination of Desolation, and the destruction of Israel, [ 70ad], and the obvious Return of himself, all in the same breath.

The Word of God is multi-layered, and dynamic in Nature to transcend events. One second you hear of the king of Tyre, the next second you here of Lucifer's beauty and fall. I am engrafted to the Saints; All of them, even the non-Jew Abraham, and the Jew David too. I am a child of Abraham's faith as I am Israel too, so I also inherit the promises to Abraham.

Therefore, I may receive spiritual ministry from the prophetic word, as I understand that they are not specific always. I see the "Towers Falling" in Isaiah 30, as unique, and then to relate that immediately, to the return of Jesus; My opinion is that this may refer 9-11; and the scriptures are not time-locked, race locked, or geographically locked; in the sense of some that refer to all of the redeemed, through all time, and all nations; even the ones to Israel.

Daniel is a good example: Do you know how many people have pegged Daniel's prophecies to a number of events in the past? a lot....so...when did the abomination of desolation happen? Oh, when that pig got slaughtered. [ANTIOCHUS]...but what about him being destroyed by Jesus when he returns? mmmmm

"All biblical prophecies have to do with or else express a condition of men or nations or empires or even the world itself, as they stand in relation to Israel or the Church."AMRKelly.

No they do not. They stand in relation to God himself.

Brother Ron,

I don't believe that Art was saying that there won't be a literal mark one day - but he was speaking, in my understanding, of these things that we depend on now that are intricately related to what's to come.

I also would never say that Art was "false" yet "genuine".

Was his every word innerant - no, I never thought so - but I respect him for being more than most that I've ever heard for discernment of his audience and the boldness to speak what he discerned. He was not sweet at all times and I liked that in him. He discerned the problems and spoke them out-right.

I've been judged by men that were dead wrong in their 'discernment' and the harm that they caused me and others besides me was literally called 'abusive'.

Art was not like that - and wouldn't we say that 1Cor 14:29 gives the impression that it would be the other 'prophets' in the body that would judge the prophet that was speaking --- and not just 'anyone' who's discernment could be miles off?

I see it as clear as a bell, can't you? The people Art is referring to, 20 YEars ago or so, are popping up all over; even those embedded in seemingly self-serving super conservative mainline churches; ALL OR NOTHING! type people, who just want to please Jesus, and see the writing on the wall, as they see their need to REPENT, and give everything to the Lamb, no matter the cost, because there is a PERSECUTION! a comin'

"We are going to be radicalized and there is not going to be any neutral ground for those of us who don't have stomach for that, who just want to be "Ordinary Christians", just get along, just be a Sunday pew-sitter, mind your business, not irritating anyone and just go on.

I want to tell you, that that option wont be available to you. To be an ordinary christian in this decade and the end of the age, will be to be apostate.

And God has never called us to be ordinary, He has called us to be extraordinary, he has called us to be apostolic.
It has always been God's intention for the church, from the beginning, how much more at the end. A church of apostolic glory, of apostolic power, of apostolic integrity, of apostolic character, of apostolic service.

These are "they" that turned the world upside down.
These are also candidates for persecution and for martyrdom."....Art Katz

It would help you to read the beginning of the Thread, and see the rest........Tom

Woe to her who is rebellious and defiled, The tyrannical city! She heeded no voice, She accepted no instruction. She did not trust in the LORD, She did not draw near to her God. Her princes within her are roaring lions, Her judges are wolves at evening; They leave nothing for the morning. Her prophets are reckless, treacherous men; Her priests have profaned the sanctuary. They have done violence to the law. The LORD is righteous within her; He will do no injustice. Every morning He brings His justice to light; He does not fail. But the unjust knows no shame. “I have cut off nations; Their corner towers are in ruins. I have made their streets desolate, With no one passing by; Their cities are laid waste, Without a man, without an inhabitant. “I said, ‘Surely you will revere Me, Accept instruction.’ So her dwelling will not be cut off According to all that I have appointed concerning her. But they were eager to corrupt all their deeds. “Therefore wait for Me,” declares the LORD, “For the day when I rise up as a witness. Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, To assemble kingdoms, To pour out on them My indignation, All My burning anger; For all the earth will be devoured By the fire of My zeal. “For then I will give to the people’s purified lips, that all of them may call on the name of the LORD, to serve Him shoulder to shoulder. Zephaniah 3:1-6

It isn’t difficult to understand the meaning of the words “the towers” no matter where it occurs. The passage above corresponds precisely to the same time and place as does Isaiah chapter thirty. Namely the Lord’s Return to Jerusalem and His dealings with Israel. This passage also includes reference to the nations whose corner towers are pulled down by the Lord. Why not take this passage to mean the twin towers of Manhattan. After all these towers are of the Nations not Israel and the USA is a nation and not Israel, who is not reckoned amongst the nations. If we simply choose what the Scripture means then we may as well speak from our imaginations altogether. The towers in Isaiah though are in Zion not Manhattan.

So, I often find comfort, and revelation in the prophets, and meaning that transcends even the specific words to Israel; and yes, even Isaiah 30. Also, the Lord has a habit of implanting these little tidbits ; out of time and sequence, like He was God or something.

This is straight forward mockery. We should find comfort and revelation in the prophets precisely because they speak of Christ. But they are not a matter of the imagination. If we begin to believe that prophecy given to Israel concerning Israel, is a matter of presently transcending its meaning for our own purposes then we are become fools. Any one can say that Christ has given them something which transcends the original meaning. Your right Tom when you say it is a “curve ball.” If only it were a ball on a straight path. But a ball set on a curve is intentionally illusionary. Can it really be that The Lord would tell you that the twin towers are presented in Isaiah chapter thirty? You say (mock) that He can because it’s “not like He was God or something?” Your original meaning was to “prove” Art’s words and thereby show them to be true. In making that seem necessary to you I apologise. I would that I had not posted at all.

Even in 1990 none of what was written was new. Also its 2012 now along way after 2000 .So although what he was saying was true it is hardly new prophetic information even in the nineties.

I think preachers who believe we are to live through the tribulation do view a very negative end for the church and fail to use examples given in the bible of the Anti-Christ and apply them to the end time. Staff.

This reply was more accurate than my own initial response, which as I say I now regret. The words which I took account of did not of themselves form an emphatic prophecy at all. Yet there is still a claim which is emphatic and I don’t regret addressing that. Art’s opening paragraph is vague to say the least but I am willing to say that it isn’t a certain claim that the end of the age will be easily measured to times and seasons. There is much more to happen in this world before the end really comes. Given that the end is characterised by mass delusion and worship of anti-christ I don’t suppose too many believers actually want to be around in that day.

In Art’s own words:

I am not saying things that none of us don’t know, but I putting it together by the grace of God to a such a way, that we might get a sense of totality of this in all-inclusiveness of this and the direction toward which is going.

All biblical prophecies have to do with or else express a condition of men or nations or empires or even the world itself, as they stand in relation to Israel or the Church. amrkelly

No they do not. They stand in relation to God himself. Brother Tom

Still pondering what I meant by these words. But I think I understand your point.

I also would never say that Art was "false" yet "genuine" Anne.

Neither would I. What I would say and in fact did say was:

The depth and sincerity and the ease in which Art speaks about the things of God, especially this subject of the prophetic man is evidently a blessing.

I realise that you have paraphrased the word sincere, but I wasn’t speaking figuratively but intentionally. As to how something can be “false yet “genuine” I believe it has to do with being real or sincere but getting it wrong. It only realy applies to the prophetic ministry although it could in truth be applied to anyone who is born again. It wouldn’t be very kind to apply it to every saint. But it is always necessary to apply it to anyone who presents themselves as a prophet of God. Personally I truly hope that more saints would test prophetic speech more often and have the confidence to say what they really mean when they in fact don’t believe a word of it. This would really drive the prophet back to the cave and provoke in him a willingness to listen to God before they speak, “thus says the Lord” or some similar formula by which they intend that we should believe them to be speaking God’s very word to us.

and wouldn't we say that 1Cor 14:29 gives the impression that it would be the other 'prophets' in the body that would judge the prophet that was speaking --- and not just 'anyone' who's discernment could be miles off? Anne.

Yes it seems to be true that 1 Corinthians 14:29 does indeed say let the prophets speak etc., and let the other [prophets] judge. I also agree that a discerning spirit might the chief characteristic of the prophet. I also agree that were someone not a prophet this lack of an ability to discern things rightly might give rise to wrong discernment; more accurately none at all. Or, perhaps just plain old imaginings.

I never really knew Art Katz that well, but some. I knew friends who would go to his holy convocation meetings up in Minnesota, and enjoyed it. I really liked his book REALITY, and recommend it generally.

Somehow he and I began to talk on the phone a bit, and he asked me to review his then unpublished work about the Holocaust itself as a final judgment on the Jewish Race, sent by God Himself. I did, and gave him my feedback. [I shared some prophetic things with him, and even counseled him in this spirit.]

This idea was so radical, that some Jews would probably murder you for thinking it; but Art wrote a detailed prophetic pamphlet about it. To the Jew, especially the Religious Jew; UNTHINKABLE!; this was slaying the Pig at the temple. Art was a non-person after that, I think, with his natural Hebrew race.

To better understand Art, and the mindset and testimony of the man, click here, for SI testimony:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=816

Art was a redeemed Jew, and God directed him toward this conflict all of his life. He remained, in my view, much of a prophetic analyst; always thinking; always examining, always turning to God, and always searching inward. He pursued higher learning all of his life, and you can hear the intellectual when he defines his understanding.

He believed in brave thinking; with no boundaries or topics taboo, because God addressed then, so must he. I am thankful that he addressed the issues in the church and his views of the Apostolic church.

I view Art as a Prophetic Teacher, whose keen intellect and exploitative spirit journeys out, and brings back the booty, and I see this at the heart of his ministry.

In it, as in this article, I believe Art saw what was coming, as in this TWO POWERS prophecy, as I took it. Of course, it is not specific, is it? But, just like us, we have a gut feeling that for sure; get ready.

As far as Isaiah 30 goes and the Towers reference, Why then would the End-Times then be brought up, if not relevant, and the End-times is defined here: It is a time of trouble for ALL of those who dwell on the Earth, and though it will end in Jerusalem [ Zion] , There is a Zion of God, and Israel of God, where all my springs of joy dwell, and that is beyond mere natural Israel.

Billions of equal children just as Natural Zion and natural Jerusalem! New Jerusalem, for all nations.

The earth mourns and fades away,
The world languishes and fades away;
The haughty people of the earth languish.

The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants,
Because they have transgressed the laws,
Changed the ordinance,
Broken the everlasting covenant.

Therefore the curse has devoured the earth,
And those who dwell in it are desolate.
Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned,
And few men are left.

"They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing;
For the majesty of the Lord
They shall cry aloud from the sea.

Therefore glorify the Lord in the dawning light,
The name of the Lord God of Israel in the coastlands of the sea.

"From the ends of the earth we have heard songs:
“Glory to the righteous!”
Isaiah 24.

So, I often find comfort, and revelation in the prophets, and meaning that transcends even the specific words to Israel; and yes, even Isaiah 30. Also, the Lord has a habit of implanting these little tidbits ; out of time and sequence, like He was God or something. Brothertom
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"This is straight forward mockery. We should find comfort and revelation in the prophets precisely because they speak of Christ." amrkelly

??? Mockery because I disagree with your statement, or mockery because I may have the liberty to conceive revelation out of it's natural context?...which by the way, I do not consider Natural Zion when reading this passage. [ Isaiah 30 ] or is it accusation to discredit?; Sounds like that to me. Now , I am a mocker because I interpret scripture differnetly than you? ok.

I am not saying that This is That, but only exploring and idea, that the twin towers and Isaiah 30 may be connected, and that the two spiritual forces that Art spoke of, that would be in the forefront until Jesus returns could be Marxist/Socialism and Islam! I think so, at this moment, but may be wrong, but Do I mock God, as you infer, to think so?

Consider the four horsemen of the Apocalypse as being spiritual forces; there are certainly other spiritual forces than the church and Jerusalem's natural Zion, isn't there?