Question,
Did Job's wife say: "Curse God and die", or "Bless God and die"?
Please look before you answer. Also I am interested in those of you who have Bibles in languages other than English, what does your Bible say?
That's a good question, UntoBabes. Appreciate the threads you bring out.
The question is a hard one and all I know to do is to see how else some particular word is used elsewhere.
This word, as you know is, H1288, בּרך bârak -
total in the KJV = Occurrences: 324 as --
blessed, 176
Gen_1:22, Gen_1:28, Gen_2:3, Gen_5:2, Gen_9:1, Gen_9:26, Gen_12:3, Gen_17:19-20 (4), Gen_22:18 (2), Gen_24:1, Gen_24:27, Gen_24:31, Gen_24:35, Gen_24:48, Gen_24:60, Gen_25:11, Gen_26:4, Gen_26:12, Gen_26:29, Gen_27:23, Gen_27:27 (2), Gen_27:29, Gen_27:33 (2), Gen_27:41, Gen_28:1, Gen_28:6 (2), Gen_28:14, Gen_30:27, Gen_30:30, Gen_31:55, Gen_32:29, Gen_35:9, Gen_39:5, Gen_47:7, Gen_47:10, Gen_48:3, Gen_48:15, Gen_48:20, Gen_49:28 (2), Exo_20:10-11 (2), Exo_39:43, Lev_9:22-23 (2), Num_22:6, Num_22:12, Num_23:11, Num_23:20, Num_24:9-10 (2), Deu_2:7, Deu_7:14, Deu_12:7, Deu_14:24, Deu_15:14, Deu_16:10, Deu_28:3-6 (6), Deu_33:1, Deu_33:13, Deu_33:20, Deu_33:24, Jos_17:13-14 (2), Jos_22:6-7 (2), Jos_22:33, Jos_24:10, Jdg_13:24 (3), Jdg_17:2, Rth_2:19-20 (2), Rth_3:10, Rth_4:14, 1Sa_2:20, 1Sa_15:13, 1Sa_23:21, 1Sa_25:32-33 (3), 1Sa_25:39, 1Sa_26:25, 2Sa_2:5, 2Sa_6:11-12 (2), 2Sa_6:18, 2Sa_7:29, 2Sa_13:25, 2Sa_18:28, 2Sa_19:39, 2Sa_22:47, 1Ki_1:48, 1Ki_2:45, 1Ki_5:7, 1Ki_8:14-15 (2), 1Ki_8:55-56 (2), 1Ki_8:66, 1Ki_10:9, 1Ch_13:14, 1Ch_16:2, 1Ch_16:36, 1Ch_17:27, 1Ch_26:5, 1Ch_29:10 (2), 1Ch_29:20, 2Ch_2:12, 2Ch_6:3-4 (2), 2Ch_9:8, 2Ch_30:26-27 (2), 2Ch_31:8, 2Ch_31:10, Ezr_7:27, Neh_8:6, Neh_9:5, Neh_11:2, Job_1:10, Job_1:21, Job_31:20, Job_42:12, Psa_18:46, Psa_28:6, Psa_37:21-22 (2), Psa_41:13, Psa_45:2, Psa_49:18, Psa_66:20, Psa_68:19, Psa_68:35, Psa_72:17-19 (3), Psa_89:52, Psa_106:48, Psa_113:2 (2), Psa_115:15, Psa_118:26 (2), Psa_119:12, Psa_124:6, Psa_128:4, Psa_135:21, Psa_144:1, Psa_147:13, Pro_5:18, Pro_20:21, Pro_22:9, Isa_19:25, Isa_51:2, Isa_61:9, Isa_65:23, Isa_66:3, Jer_17:7, Jer_20:14, Eze_3:12, Zec_11:5
bless, 116
Gen_12:2-3 (3), Gen_22:16-17 (3), Gen_26:3, Gen_26:24, Gen_27:4, Gen_27:7, Gen_27:10, Gen_27:19, Gen_27:25, Gen_27:31, Gen_27:34, Gen_27:38, Gen_28:3, Gen_32:26, Gen_48:9, Gen_48:16, Gen_48:20, Gen_49:25, Exo_12:32, Exo_23:24-25 (2), Num_6:23-24 (2), Num_6:27, Num_23:20, Num_23:25, Num_24:1, Deu_1:11, Deu_7:13 (2), Deu_8:10, Deu_10:8, Deu_14:29, Deu_15:4, Deu_15:10, Deu_15:18, Deu_16:15, Deu_21:5, Deu_23:20, Deu_24:13, Deu_24:19, Deu_26:15, Deu_27:12, Deu_28:8, Deu_28:12, Deu_29:19, Deu_30:16, Deu_33:11, Jos_8:33, Jdg_5:9, Rth_2:4, 1Sa_9:13, 2Sa_6:20, 2Sa_7:29, 2Sa_8:10, 2Sa_21:3, 1Ki_1:47, 1Ch_4:10, 1Ch_16:43, 1Ch_17:27, 1Ch_23:13, 1Ch_29:20, Neh_9:5, Psa_5:12, Psa_16:7, Psa_26:12, Psa_28:9, Psa_29:11, Psa_34:1, Psa_63:4 (2), Psa_66:8, Psa_67:1, Psa_67:6-7 (2), Psa_68:26, Psa_96:2, Psa_100:4, Psa_103:1-2 (2), Psa_103:20-22 (4), Psa_104:1, Psa_104:35, Psa_109:28, Psa_115:12-13 (4), Psa_115:18, Psa_128:5, Psa_129:8, Psa_132:15, Psa_134:1-3 (3), Psa_135:19-20 (4), Psa_145:1-2 (2), Psa_145:10, Psa_145:21, Pro_30:11, Isa_19:25, Isa_65:16, Jer_4:2, Jer_31:23, Hag_2:19
blesseth, 8
Gen_27:29, Num_24:9, Deu_15:6, Psa_10:3, Psa_107:38, Pro_3:33, Pro_27:14, Isa_65:16
salute, 4
1Sa_13:10, 1Sa_25:14, 2Ki_4:29 (2)
blessest, 3
Num_22:6, 1Ch_17:27, Psa_65:10
curse, 3
Job_1:10-11 (2), Job_2:5, Job_2:9
blaspheme, 2
1Ki_21:10, 1Ki_21:13
kneel, 2
Gen_24:11, Psa_95:6
abundantly, 1
Psa_132:15
blessing, 1
Gen_22:17
congratulate, 1
1Ch_18:10
cursed, 1
Job_1:5
down, 1
Gen_24:11
kneeled, 1
2Ch_6:13
praise, 1
Jdg_5:2
praised, 1
Psa_72:15
saluted, 1
2Ki_10:15
thanked, 1
2Sa_14:22
The answer is, we don't really know the answer unless, maybe we apply another rule - is to see how the particular author of each seperate book used the word and maybe if we look at how it is used in this book Job, we'll see how that author used it?
Looking forward to see what you and others find.
Very interesting thread, UntoBabes. Thanks!
Hi, UntoBabes!
I checked the passage in Job and found the following:
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV):
Job 2:9 - "Curse God, and die"
(Yet, there is a superscript next to the word "Curse" which reads in the footnote that the word "Curse" in the Hebrew translation is intepreted "Bless").
Hmmm? Interesting observation, "UntoBabes"!
We should refer this to Jesus-Is-God, as she is a lexical expert. It would be interesting to gain her insight on this passage.
Love-in-Christ,
KP
Hopefully, Jesus-Is-God will read this post and respond with her input.
Love-in-Christ,
KP
I read your post KP and LOL. Bless you much! You are a blessing here to us all.
I'm not an expert anything but merely somehow managed to learn how to navigate the e-sword. :o)
Thank you for the giggles.
You're a prize and I/we love you!
Thank you both so much, appreciate the fast and thorough response.
So, how would you interpret it JiG?
You listed the meaning of the word in the book of Job:
Job_1:10, Job_1:21, Job_31:20, Job_42:12, to mean " bless"
and Job_1:10-11 (2), Job_2:5, Job_2:9 to mean " curse"
Personally I have a hard time believing that she said to curse God and die. What do you think?
Yes, it is hard to believe, so we'll look at context ...
Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.
Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him, ""Dost thou STILL *retain thine integrity*? either bless or curse God, And *DIE.""
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Nice wife, eh? Looks like Satan got into her mouth as well as poor Job's body.
I think whether she said "bless or curse" doesn't quite matter because her 'heart' is exposed in her question.
Job later says - Job 19:17 My breath is strange [H2114] to my wife, though I intreated for the [our] children's sake of mine own body.
It's just like the Devil to kick us when we're down and to use those closest to us to try to get us to feel that we're a waste of oxygen or worse.
This is not a loving wife but I've seen wives of sick men that are like this and this topic sure could bring tears.
Blessings to you, Friend!
Just before his wife mocked in question of his integrity ... see what The LORD said of Job's integrity ...
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
**and still he 'holdeth fast' his integrity,**
although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
- compare to - "Dost thou STILL *retain thine integrity*?"
GOD's words above were said to Satan in vs 2:3 -- so no coincidence that the enemy would use those exact words in an attack on the man, on the very thing that GOD praised about him. Satan hates what GOD loves.
MamaMia!
We're learning spiritual warfare, thanks to your thread.
Thanks! :)
By all means I am not saying she was a good wife.
She might have suggested that he would take his own life and end his misery and that would explain his answer to her that she was speaking as fool, but I still think she did not say "curse God".
In any case, appreciate your knowledgeable insights Jesus-is-God. You are a real help .
I am also trying to understand the nature of these ancient languages and why would something like that occur, that is, when a word can mean exactly the opposite.
Why are you giggling, Jesus-Is-God? I learn so much from your posts and have dowloaded E-sword onto my desktop. It is a most excellent tool for those like me, who struggle with interpretation.
UntoBabes, I was reviewing the passage again. When I consider the context of the conversation which takes place between Job and his wife in Job 2:9-10, it makes sense that his wife would say and mean "Curse God, and die". Look at the negative sarcasm in her tone. And then look at the question she asks Job, "Do you still persist in your integrity?" (Job 2:9).
Next, I had another look at Job's admonishing response to his wife's statement - which indicates that she must have uttered something offensive, as he replies, "You speak as any foolish woman would speak. Shall we receive the good at the hand of God, and not receive the bad?" (Job 2:10).
Then the Lord concludes this encounter with his estimating narration, "In all [this] Job did not [sin with his lips]" (Job 2:10 - brackets inserted). His wife's statement was relfected the temptation for Job to "sin with his lips".
If she was "blessing" God, then it would not make sense that Job would be so offended or inspired to call her "foolish" - as he was a man of faith. Also, if she was "blessing" God, why would God associate her utterance with the possibility for Job to "sin with his lips"?
I'm only looking at the passage from the perspective of what would make sense in everyday conversation. Looking at Job's response, he appeared to be offended just as much by the reflection of his wife's statement upon God's nature or what Job refers to as "the hand of God" (Job 2:10), as his own life.
Thank you for inspiring us to search the scriptures. God's Word is so much fun!
Love-in-Christ,
KP
Thank you both so very much,
I guess the lesson to learn here is that context is of utmost importance when it comes to Bible interpretation.
It is not at all enough to say that if a word means this or that in a certain verse, then it must mean the same in the rest.
But sad to say multitudes of so called Bible scholars soldemn pay attention to the context but solely rely on the meaning of words.
That is true, UntoBabes.
I thought that it seemed like Mrs. Job just had a Peter type moment in reverse, I guess. Peter didn't want Jesus to die and Jesus rebuked Satan, and Satan gave Mrs Job those words - I believe.
Just imagine if you were very sick and your husband said what Mrs. Job said to Mr. Job.
Just that one word "Die" would be enough to cause most families to break up.
I've always felt relieved that she was still his wife at the end
I love happy endings.
GOD Bless you two & thank you for bringing this study up.
Job 1:11
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will (curse) thee to thy face
obviously does not mean bless
Job 2:5
But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will (curse) thee to thy face
obviously does not mean bless
It is obviouse that the translaters did not take unmerited liberty when translating Job 2:9 Barak as curse.
But never the less interesting thoughts
Context determines word translation more than just about any other thing. Literal word for word equivalent with consistency simply does not work. Seeing that you already correctly concluded the answer, I would just agree, Job's wife's statement is predicated by a snarky question pertaining to his integrity, she seems more bitter against God than anything.
I also just checked Blue Letter Bible and only one translation worded it "bless." The spanish translation showed curse as well, at least I am pretty sure it did :)
I am curious though Untobabes, why did you have a hard time believing she would say that? Not that you have to share, only if you are comfortable doing so. Her bitterness surprises me no more than the bitterness toward God that I hear come out of people all the time. People who have known nothing but blessing for their whole adult life often turn rabid when a trial comes along.
Whenever you tip over a glass, whatever was in it...comes spilling out.
I have found over the past few years that as I prepare for teaching the scriptures that I often am confronted by things in the word of God that I simply do not want to be true. Or that seem to rub me a little the wrong way. The Lord showed me a long time ago that I cannot trust myself because my heart often "wants" certain things to be true or untrue. The verse that always comes to mind for me about this is "It is out of the abundance of the heart that the mouth speaks." So often we claim to confidently believe things with such zealous fervor, and we never stop to ask if we really have the Spirit of the word lining up with the letter. So when I find my heart a little off, I seek the Lord for his correction, and ask him to change my heart.
Not that any of this is directly pertinent to you, just thought I would share a bit of my own experience.
Areadymind said:
I have found over the past few years that as I prepare for teaching the scriptures that I often am confronted by things in the word of God that I simply do not want to be true. Or that seem to rub me a little the wrong way. The Lord showed me a long time ago that I cannot trust myself because my heart often "wants" certain things to be true or untrue. The verse that always comes to mind for me about this is "It is out of the abundance of the heart that the mouth speaks." So often we claim to confidently believe things with such zealous fervor, and we never stop to ask if we really have the Spirit of the word lining up with the letter. So when I find my heart a little off, I seek the Lord for his correction, and ask him to change my heart.
Excellent stuff, here. ^
EverestoSama wrote Excellent stuff in response to what Areadymind wrote.
I second that
KP - I'm dragging your post from another thread over to this one. I feel uneasy on that thread at this point.
I know UntoBabes won't mind. We've prayed together and her heart is good.
I miss this too (pouting). Yet, people can be just as phony in person, though there is greater opportunity for the operation of discernment.Jesus-Is-God wrote:
"that it's impossible on the net to know what's really being said and how or why, with the majority."
I agree - yet, there is something revelatory about the written word (if you know what I mean). With man, there is a consistency which pervades throughout one's writing which leaves a trace of natural, personalized identity.
Like your writng, Jesus-Is-God. Even when you've written the most cerebral, doctrinal analysis of a sermon or scripture, your posts ALWAYS leave a trace of sincerity, trustworthiness, and genuine love for your brother. Christ somehow leaves his aroma even in the written word. Since Word can become Flesh, then I suppose it can be the other way 'round.
And a while ago, I wrote about the impact of reading Charles Spurgeon's sermons. Though I've never met him in the natural, when He writes about the Master, I might as well be reading my own thoughts; it is like telepathy in absentia. An effect I rarely (really never) get from natural, face-to-face fellowship.
I am praying without ceasing, Jesus-Is-God, as well as unable to breathe without a daily and moment-by-moment intimate relationship with God's Word - and for that reason, I can have confidence that I am writing what's really being said in my heart. His Word is the language from which I derive my words and purpose for communicating. If not for God's Word, I'd have absolutely nothing to say nor would there be anything worth hearing. It hasn't always been this way, of course.
Love-in-Christ,
KP
Well my friend, some of us do not have the 'gift' of expression and in my case, it's because I got a good kick in the head from neuro-lyme. Posting can be like trying to pull a tractor trailor up a hill for me. What comes out is spontaneous and my Doc is well aware that that's all that I can do to "communicate". But at this point, I need the fellowship. I live now in an area that is Protestant-hostile. There's no Christians to talk to, except when friends call on the phone from other States.
At the Church I was a member in, down in the Bible belt, they 'tried' to get me to talk during Sunday School - and after the Service, I'd go over to the Nursing Home where I worked before I got knocked down with Lyme and I'd attend their service. There too, the Chaplain that was a member of my Church would try to get me to answer a Bible question but I'd clam up. I was just content to be with these folks. The most loving Church group one could imagine and I found that I just loved to bask in their presence and that was sufficient for me.
Here, we 'have to' type to fellowship and that's hard for some of us.
Yes, Spurgeon and so many others have the gift of communicating in writing. But if one doesn't have that gift - they're up the creek sometimes on a forum.
People from other countries seem to hold back as well because they're grammar and language differs from ours, and that always makes me feel sad that they don't post more.
You are appreciated here and I enjoyed our talks on psych as well. Would love to take that up again, because it would be good to get the lies of that particular 'science' out in the open - Just so that when hard times do come our way - that people will be able to circumvent the lies in that field and head straight for Biblical answers that set one free and promises a sound mind. Some have health issues that may affect their emotions and whatever - but the Peace that comes from His Word is priceless for them as well.
Not everyone would agree with your assessments of my posts - but the only thing that I can say is that with every rough one, there's never a lack of tears, because between us, I truly do love my Family in Christ, because I can't say that I have a family to talk to. "Precious are the wounds of a friend" and sometimes we need to trust one another a bit more to give them the benefit of the doubt, that they may see something or know something about someone that we don't know about a poster and they're responding in that way for that reason only.
I believe it's your own sincerity and lack of guile that sees everyone the way you do. Each human on here is not here by happenstance. We're yet to see what He's up to. The only omniscient One.
GOD Bless you richly KP and thanks for the Fellowship.
Much appreciated - much needed.
His Best!
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