http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/worship-is-not-sex
I found this article and after reading it it reminded me of how music becomes so trendy in the mainstream of secular music and how it carries over into the church and especially the mainstream church. Getting so close to the world in order to make a buck, I mean a convert.
See what you think
I saw the word satire mentioned in the article, and the article seems to have been written back in 2003.
But, it was still ugly to read.
The main article was written Oct8 but used an article from 2003 to further its point.
It is my thinking that more contemporary churches use these type of songs to make it more mainstream. How many churches use more hymnal based songs whether or not being read out of a hymnal anymore?
THe church I attend, one of my annoyance is the music/words because it seems like watered down meanings to me.
i use to listen to Vineyard Music a lot of years ago. it was not like that then, at least not what i listened to. seems really sad that God gives us good things like music and poetry and man comes along and wants to always pervert it.
i believe you can pour out your heart in love to Jesus with out having to make it a worldly thing.
rdg
SOOoo glad the author of that article can see the intent of man's heart before he wrote this...
You mean, "A two fold child of hell", don't you? Matt23:15Getting so close to the world in order to make a buck, I mean a convert.
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QUOTE:
"one of my annoyance is the music/words because it seems like watered down meanings to me."
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So many of those lyrics seem to assume that Believers mentally has not progressed since they were three years old. Or, beyond kindergarten, "See Dick run, see Dick run fast!"
Annoying. My patience gets tested to the max.
John, I read an article today that reminded me of your question. I am quoting from it...
The article was written by Todd Neuschwander titled "Developing a Biblical Culture".
"Baptizing secular culture and calling it Christian is not at all the same as developing a Biblical culture. We must do more than say, "whatever the world can do we can do better as a Christian," and then borrow their music, entertainment, values, practices, fashions, and fads. Rather, we must enter the Kingdom by faith in the finished work of Christ, embrace the rule and reign of God in our hearts and lives, and walk as genuine Spirit-filled disciples."
Baptizing secular culture and calling it Christian is not at all the same as developing a Biblical culture. We must do more than say, "whatever the world can do we can do better as a Christian," and then borrow their music, entertainment, values, practices, fashions, and fads.
So say I as a musician found a popular song sung in bars and put Christian lyrics to those songs? That's wrong?
Sister Ginny I know you and I don't agree on this topic and we have gone round and round about it, I am ready to sharpen some iron with you, sis. :)
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QUOTE:
"Sister Ginny I know you and I don't agree on this topic and we have gone round and round about it, I am ready to sharpen some iron with you, sis. :)"
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So, what is the use, Matt? Your mind is made up and so is mine.
But let us face it, much of the sound found in worldly music lacks beauty. There is little harmony, just noise. Scratching the blackboard with your fingernails is no less beautiful then modern noise that is passed off as music! It really is unsettling in my spirit.
If you are thinking that my love for music is limited to certain kinds you are so wrong. Music has to be beautiful to the senses and enhance the lyrics. If it is screechy, lacks harmony, forget it. One does not tell a loved one he/she loves them by yelling and using using bad tones...so it is with music.
Matt, I am limited in defining music as a professional musician understands it. I am only a person who can read music, sing notes without use of any instrument although I can and do play instruments for personal pleasure.
Matt, none of my acquaintances who love rock and its kind ever have told me they think it is beautiful; they just say they like it! Big difference! God is a God of beauty and we are here to reflect it.
I have heard many times of people who were in a transition of passing from this life to eternity who have commented on the music they are hearing. They say it is so beautiful! Can we who are filled with the Holy Spirit not reflect in some measure the beauty of sound that is heavenly?
Consider the "Hallelujah Chorus" written by George F. Handel. The saying is that when he came to this portion he said it was as though the windows of heaven were opened and he was merely recording what he was hearing. Whether this happened literally, only Handel can say, but when you consider the context in which this piece was written, one could imagine that in his spirit he indeed did hear this music.
It is about beauty, Matt. We exist to reflect God's beauty in life, in relationships, in our work. The joy that dwells within will be reflected in our music.
Amen sister! Sometimes as I read a book or hear a sermon I feel a strong disturbance in my spirit - when I further seek the Lord about what I feel He reveals in detail to me what it was in what I heard or read that was not from Him. Almost invariably I am pointed to scripture that clarifies the issue to me. My "experience" may or may not influence others to whom I share it, but I rest in the realization that the God whom I love has shown me where to walk.
The same applies to music. When I hear contemporary Christian music which seems to be built almost entirely around a cacophonous, hammering beat I feel a terrible revulsion in my spirit. As far as I can see, for those who enjoy it it is the beat that guides them into a different state of consciousness which brings them the "pleasure" they experience through it. For myself, I realize that to enjoy the same I would have to open a door in my heart which I keep bolted shut through which, if I enter, I will be in a foreign spiritual enviroment which is far from the sweet, holy Presence of the One in Whom I feel secure.
When I look at the history of contemporary music I see a
horrible degeneration of morality - Elvis, the king of rock with his sinful and self,destructing lifestyle, the Beatles and Rolling Stones with more of the same - then progressing to the likes of Sex Pistols, heavy metal, Goth culture and on and on. The downward spiral seems to be from immorality to demon worship and bondage. Why does this type of music appeal to sanctified believers?
Music and rhythm (not hammering off-beat) are part of the very essence of my being. God has inspired me to write love songs and sonnets to my dear wife which are also filled with praise to Him. As I weave the richness of sounds, words, melody and precise rhythm together I get great pleasure in creating a work which directs hearers to the glory and beauty of the Lord who created marriage in all its loveliness and order.
There are many who will strongly contest what I say,but I am not ashamed of my position which I have felt led to share with God's glory as my intent.
I understand what you are saying but disagree with it all the same. David's Psalms didn't reflect beauty all the time, in fact they some reflected dispair, some reflect affliction, revenge, anger, and even physical ailment. If God only cared about us reflecting beauty He would have been pretty displeased with a great portion of the Psalms.
Now back to my question that you didn't answer, many of the hymns you say are beautiful were first sung but a group of drunk men in bars. The Wesley brothers took the known bar songs and adapted them to their Christian lyrics. IE Christianity taking from the World and "baptising it."
I also disagree that modern worship isn't beautiful and you are expressing your opinion on that matter not truth.
"So many of those lyrics seem to assume that Believers mentally has not progressed since they were three years old. Or, beyond kindergarten, "See Dick run, see Dick run fast!"
You must really think the Seraphim and Cheribim are really juvenile if you think this. They have been saying the same thing for all eternity.
I strongly dislike hot dogs. I find them to be the most repulsive food on earth. They just don't sit right with me. I don't consider them beautiful in any way shape or form, thus they are not so based upon my subjective opinion.
Because I deem something un-beautiful, un-edible, and un-appealing, it must surely be so. If you disagree, there is something wrong in your life. It troubles me that any Christian could eat such a vile mess.
by EverestoSama on 2012/10/9 5:37:07
I strongly dislike hot dogs. I find them to be the most repulsive food on earth. They just don't sit right with me. I don't consider them beautiful in any way shape or form, thus they are not so based upon my subjective opinion.
Because I deem something un-beautiful, un-edible, and un-appealing, it must surely be so. If you disagree, there is something wrong in your life. It troubles me that any Christian could eat such a vile mess.
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i agree with you completely, unless the hot dog is grilled and then served with lots of mustard then it is a thing of beauty:)
i totally appreciate your sarcasm, makes the point perfectly!
rdg
QUOTE:
" you are expressing your opinion on that matter not truth."
Matt, I am shocked at this statement! Since you are merely expressing opinion as well, I must conclude you are not speaking truth!
Matt, it is very possible that music set to ungodly lyrics have a quality of beauty to it. I never will dispute that. It is the sound we are disagreeing with - I think.
Matt, when Regina died, the Holy Spirit led me to sing privately...He led me to take a hymnal with 816 songs (Zion's Praises) and sing through the book (I never did get through it but think I should resume this practice). I took each song in succession and just sang it minus any instrumentation. If I did not know the song, I learned it by singing the notes through twice and then I sang the words. After singing four songs like this I felt in my spirit as though I was in the presence of God himself. I felt and experienced his joy.
Matt, when I hear music, I am oblivious to the lyrics - at first. I am hearing the sound. It is like tasting food - does it taste good? I am not concerned about the nutritional value at all, just the taste. If it does not taste good, I will not eat it. So is the sound. If it has beauty I will want to learn the lyrics.
It is about expressing joy and delight, Matt. Even the Psalms that speak of grief and anger conclude with the writers' knowledge of God and Him being in control, God being sovereign. And this brings delight, does it not?
I suggest you do what the LORD led me to do - take a hymnal and sing the songs minus a guitar. See what it will do to your spirit. It will go a long way to help you deal with the grief, disappointments you have on the personal level.
I am challenging you, Matt. Lay aside your guitars and drums and take a hymnal and sing those songs! Take a fast from your instruments and see what will happen, asking the LORD Jesus to reveal Himself to you during this process. I challenge you, Matt!
Matt, I am shocked at this statement! Since you are merely expressing opinion as well, I must conclude you are not speaking truth!
No we are both expressing opinions for sure, mearly taste of what we like. And in that there is no set truth or guideline, as long as the lyrics glorify God.
Those hymns you took and sang, a great protion of them use to be bar songs, probably one of the most ungodly music of its time.
I don't find hymns appealing or beautiful to me unlike yourself they don't "taste good" I am one that looks to the lyrics of a song first then the instrumentation because the lyrics are the message the musician is trying to tell.
I have sang them hymns many times with and without instruments and I can't say I have experienced the same as you have described. I have however experienced it with the worship music that I enjoy.
I have very little appreciation for much of the art that is to be found at any given art gallery. There are certain things that I personally might find to be artistic, or that speak to me on some level, or that I find pleasant to look at. But not everything in an art gallery. Someone else, my wife for instance, can walk into the same art gallery and look at the same pieces of art as I... and come away with a completely different experience than I. What I found to be beautiful or meaningful she might find repulsive or unartistic. And there are bound to be a couple pieces that we both look at and fall in love with... or both hate.
Isnt it wonderful and amazing that a creative God made us all so incredibly different? He gave us all varying degrees of taste when it comes to music and beauty and appreciation of such things? I think so.
Why cant Christians just enjoy art and music for what it is without putting all kinds of labels on it and forcing it to be akin to an evangelistic tract? Not every song has to be about the "Romans Road" to salvation. It's ok to enjoy a love song with your wife. Not every painting has to have Christ or cherubs in it... it's ok to appreciate the texture and colors of a piece of modern painting.
Art and music is an expression of creativity, a quality that is very God-like. We look around at the beautiful landscapes of this orb we live on and we forget that this is God's artistic tapestry! Especially this time of year with the leaves turning all kinds of vibrant colors!
Of course we should avoid music or art that is about rebellion and sin, no argues that. We all get that. But this debate over music is nothing more than a debate over personal tastes. And thats it. "I dont like this kind of music, therefore God doesnt like it... therefore if you do you better check and make sure you're not in sin!"
Really?
Here's what we need to do... if there is a style of music you enjoy, and you can enjoy it as unto the Lord... great! Do it!
And if there is a style of music you hate, and you do not have the freedom to enjoy it as unto the Lord... and cant understand how anyone can? ... then dont listen to it. And dont worry about those who do.
It's really quite simple.
Christians clamored for Thomas Kinkaide's paintings. Frankly, while he was an artist, there was really nothing very artistic about his work. All his paintings looked the same to me. He pandered to the Christian market. And many Christians claim Kinkaide as their favorite "artist". It was cheap art... calendar art. Thus is the level of art appreciation among Christians. If it doesnt have a church in it and a Bible verse at the bottom then it's not "Christian art". It's a shame, but it's not surprising.
And ironically, the modern day church's favorite artist died of drugs and alcohol abuse.
Food for thought. Stop judging each other over music and art. duh.
Krispy
ut this debate over music is nothing more than a debate over personal tastes. And thats it. "I dont like this kind of music, therefore God doesnt like it... therefore if you do you better check and make sure you're not in sin!"
Really?
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this is what i have been considering. what is it inside of me that gets so offended because someone else does not like or enjoy what i like. why do i take it as an insult? i know many who do instead of just accepting that not everyone is going to enjoy the same things we set about on a mission to either persuade them over to liking what we like or we dismiss them as having a lesser walk with the Lord.
i love the Lord Jesus with all my heart and i seek to make Him Lord of my life every day just like others here do. i also like older vineyard music; one song that always blessed me was "creation calls" (someone very close to me shared this song with me) i also like Ansal Adams as an artist and hot dogs grilled with mustard;)
rdg
@ Krispy-
I have not been on the site here other than just to occasionally listen to a sermon or catch a headline over the last couple of months.
However, this thread caught my eye and I read a few of the posts.
Krispy, I must say that the last post you made on here, two above this one, is in my opinion the most mature, balanced, and authentic post I ever remember reading from you.
I am not by any means saying that those qualities were necessarily absent from your past postings. It just seems that you are expressing a depth of understanding that I did not see in them before.
I am just assuming that the time you took away to reflect. pray, etc. the last few months is key to that. I certainly don't know that... but it seems to fit.
Anyway, whenever someone is obviously growing I think they should be encouraged in it. It takes effort, desire, and discipline to grow. You are showing it!
Just wanted to encourage you... we have "crossed swords" , so to speak, on several issues. However, I just wanted to acknowledge and encourage you in what my limited interactions here have seen.
AS TO THE TOPIC : Once you have experienced deep true intimacy with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit nothing else will satisfy you. When others are .... judgementally negative... toward those overt expressions of intimacy with Them I know those individuals have not experienced that intimacy.
You simply can not put into words how a guy feels when he is overcome with a deep consuming passion, love, desire, and intimacy for the lady who has his heart.
There are far fewer words to convey accurately that feeling Christ has for us and those who embrace His many faceted love have for Him. However, there are those poets in the body of Christ that are attempting to convey that. It is their attempts to convey that deepest yearning, love, and passion of Christ that makes many uncomfortable.
This discussion is locked.
