Can we obey God or not??????????

How much more shall we live a holy life in the New Covenant, given everything we need to live a godly life!2 Peter 1:3 - "His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness."

Thanks for the thoughts freecd. I would like to answer some of your questions. The first one you ask is "Please tell me how these people obeyed?"The premise this question is based on is flawed, that is, it cannot be answered in the form that it has been asked without accepting the premise upon which it is based. In this case, the premise is that some people in the bible 'sinlessly' obeyed God.. which is an incorrect premise.So in order to answer your question properly, I must first demosntrate scripturally that the premise is a misunderstanding...Consider the words of King Solomon, "When they sin against You (for there is no one who does not sin),..." - 1 Kings 8:46aPerhaps the wisest men who ever lived, plainly stated that there is no one who does not sin.This is echoed throughout scripture:- Psalm 130:3 "If You, LORD, should mark iniquities,O Lord, who could stand?"- Psalm 143:2 "And do not enter into judgment with Your servant,For in Your sight no man living is righteous."- Proverbs 20:9 "Who can say, "I have cleansed my heart, I am pure from my sin?"- Ecclesiastes 7:20 "Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins."- Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"- 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."If the passages you quoted were teaching what you assume them to be teaching - all these passages I noted would be blatantly contrary.If on the otherhand, the passages you mentioned are not teaching a "sinless perfection" - but rather a blamelessness such as that taught regarding David in 2 Samuel 12:13, "So David said to Nathan, 'I have sinned against the LORD.' And Nathan said to David, 'The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.'"In this verse we see that David repented, and God responded to that repentance by putting away David's sin - that is, David was not sinless - but God treated him as such.That means that it has always been possible for a person to be right in God's eyes without being perfectly sinless. Remember that God "... knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust." - Psalm 103:14Getting back to your question then, the answer is - those people did not obey in the sense you are imagining. They obeyed in the sense that they continued to turn to God for forgiveness when they sinned. They obeyed in the sense that they sought God's will, as opposed to their own. Not perfectly - but consistently.Likewise your second question, "Did Adam or his descendants lose the ability to obey God after Adam's sin?" becomes moot. They didn't lose something because the something you imagine has been lost is entirely fanciful - having never been a reality ever.I hope that helps.Dan

By grace through faith the OT Saints were justified, sanctified, and glorified.In ChristJeff

James 2:26 For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead.Ya know, do a search for the word 'obedient' or 'obedience' in the New Testament on any online Bible site. I come up with appx. 40 entries. Pray and SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES! :) I'll tell ya what though, you will hear alot of talk about faith, grace, and mercy today, but most of the fruit of that movement is disobedience and rebellion, no need for the scriptures, and rampant sinful living right within the lives of these people who have "slipped in among us." I say this because I LIVED IT at one time before I got the Holy Ghost for real. Jude calls these men who use grace as a license for immorality GODLESS. JUDE 4 SAYS: "For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."JUDE is a powerhouse of information and knowledge about the days we live in. Crave the meat, not just the milk.

Freecd: After re-reading your first post carefully, I come away with the impression (based primarily on your opening remark) that you are saying that the descendants of Adam either do not inherit the curse of Adam, or alternately, that the curse of Adam in no way affects them with regards to sin.Likewise, you also seem to be saying that the carnal mind is --not-- emnity against God and that it actually --can-- be subject to God's law.I don't want to put opinions in your mouth. Is this not what you are saying?Dan

I disagree. At any given point in time we either are in obedience to God or we are not. No other choice is possible. It would be impossible to partly obey and partly disobey at the same time. Howdy do Ok here is the thing it is possible in the past.To Obey and still have the Flesh disobey.I.E. Paul says in Romans..7ish, that with his mind he wants to obey God however his sinful body does not obey. He goes on to say something like.... So now who will save me from this sinful flesh, Thanks be to Jesus for he will save me.... Then he says something like, The Holy Spirit now makes it possible to Obey GOD.See GOD stopped dealing with the Flesh on Calvary,U gots to Remember the Words Our Master Spoke."It is Finished"The Old Covenant is finished.Dat means that in the past God !!dealt!! with man in the Flesh, and in doing so put up with allot of !ignorance! and his wrath had to be satisfied.........See Noah, See Sodom and Gomorrah, See Egypt, See the 400 priest of Balam,See Cain.Add to your thought also that Old Test Good Guys Were being Judged by the Law, and before Moses the Law of Consience... Also add a dash of Cain and Able... They were Sacrificing even back then.Dats 2nd Generation Human and they new they had to Sacrifice.However Now we got a New Rule and that Rule is that JESUS Paid the Price for Our sins.So now GOD Deals with us in a different way, Yeah that’s right a Different Way.Now He Abides IN US, we do not have to Look at a Temple of God, or make Sacrifices for Sin.Ok to sum up.. Old Testament "Obey" is Flesh Striving to be good, and failing. So I want to do Good but I can't... and GOD Understood that. Connection was Long Distance.New Testament "Obey" is JESUS Living IN YOU and me and the Flesh(Law) is not in the Equation any more. Connection is Spiritual that's closer than Face 2 Face man... WoW!!! I just thought about that... Hope that helps Bro

Dan,A minor point, but I thought it would be a good idea to tell you about it so you can deal with it. You say;the passages you mentioned are not teaching a "sinless perfection" - but rather a blamelessness such as that taught regarding David in 2 Samuel 12:13, "So David said to Nathan, 'I have sinned against the LORD.' And Nathan said to David, 'The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.'"Getting back to your question then, the answer is - those people did not obey in the sense you are imagining. They obeyed in the sense that they continued to turn to God for forgiveness when they sinned.This does not seem to square with one of the quotes originally used by freecd, namely Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite

Thanks sfwc - I noted it.I read freecd's first post rather quickly (to my shame), and didn't fully take in what he was getting at.Upon re-reading his post, I think he is opposed to total depravity - which makes my response a little ...off :)Thanks for the thoughts though.

Howdy do Ok here is the thing it is possible in the past.To Obey and still have the Flesh disobey.I.E. Paul says in Romans..7ish, that with his mind he wants to obey God however his sinful body does not obey. He goes on to say something like.... So now who will save me from this sinful flesh, Thanks be to Jesus for he will save me.... Then he says something like, The Holy Spirit now makes it possible to Obey GOD.See GOD stopped dealing with the Flesh on Calvary,U gots to Remember the Words Our Master Spoke."It is Finished"The Old Covenant is finished.Dat means that in the past God !!dealt!! with man in the Flesh, and in doing so put up with allot of !ignorance! and his wrath had to be satisfied.........See Noah, See Sodom and Gomorrah, See Egypt, See the 400 priest of Balam,See Cain.Add to your thought also that Old Test Good Guys Were being Judged by the Law, and before Moses the Law of Consience... Also add a dash of Cain and Able... They were Sacrificing even back then.Dats 2nd Generation Human and they new they had to Sacrifice.However Now we got a New Rule and that Rule is that JESUS Paid the Price for Our sins.So now GOD Deals with us in a different way, Yeah that’s right a Different Way.Now He Abides IN US, we do not have to Look at a Temple of God, or make Sacrifices for Sin.Ok to sum up.. Old Testament "Obey" is Flesh Striving to be good, and failing. So I want to do Good but I can't... and GOD Understood that. Connection was Long Distance.New Testament "Obey" is JESUS Living IN YOU and me and the Flesh(Law) is not in the Equation any more. Connection is Spiritual that's closer than Face 2 Face man... WoW!!! I just thought about that... Hope that helps BroGood Point AoW

freecd wrote:Just because we have all sinned does not mean that we CAN NOT obey. We always have a choice to make. How can we be truly guilty without actually choosing to disobey?Welcome to the inside of my head :cry:. The questions you are raising, are really the only questions that should be asked, as everything else comes back to these questions. Guilt is impossible without choice. Otherwise the guilt would be on the one one made the choice for us, and we would be inocent.For me, the answer to this issue begins with the statement, "99% truth = 100% lie". Each of Satan's lies, recorded in scrpiture, were made up of truthful statments. However, the arrangement of the order these statments, made them a lie.Finney defined a lie by saying:Any species of designed deception for a selfish reason is lying. If the deception is not a design it is not lying. But if you design to make an impression contrary to the naked truth, you lie.In the same way 99% obedience = 100% disobedience. Just because you got away with it, or were excused for the action, doesn't mean innocence. Likewise a life spent 99% obeying God, is a life 100% disobedient to God. A simple perusal of 1 Cor 13:1-3 and Matt 7:21-23 shows that a life spent doing the "things that please God" without the proper motivation, "profits nothing", and result in us being nothing but "sounding brass", "tinkling cymbals", and in effect "nothing" period, in the sight of God, whose top priority is the we know Him, as He is, and are known by Him.The problem is self. Self aweness, self importance, self involvement, self rule, etc. This is where the fall fits in. The issue of the fall is one of selfishness and the intial presentation of it by Satan. Where we begin to understand choice: That choice has to involve the ability to choose evil and something else. The two trees were "Life" (truth, obedience) and "Knowledge of Good and Evil" (death, lie, selfishness). To choose evil, results in our choices being between two evils, one overtly evil, and another which seems good. The only way to bring good back into the equation, is to return to the first choice we blew, and rectify it. That choice, is always the choice of selfishness.That is why in ourselves, we can do no good thing. The only "good thing" we can actually do, in "call on His name", to submit our selfishness to Him. This was first done, by Enosh (Gen 4:26) only two generations from Adam. This is also the way the OT and the NT saints fused together. This submission of self, always involves a sacrifice, of one to bear the guilt of the other. In the Kingdom of God, there is zero tolerance for disention, and someone has to bear the deserved death.OT saints ignorantly sacrificed animals, according to Devine perscription, as a recognition of God's deliverance, in Jesus. NT saints (us included) lean on the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus. But in both cases, the sacrifice is worthless, without a "calling upon His name". Neither is the calling of any value, without the recognition of the sacrifice being for us (ie, recognising our guilt).Now we begin to realise, that obedience is about doing what God requires, and in the event of choosing our will over His, righting the wrong done by the only means perscribed. Calling on His Name, and trusting in His atoning sacrice. When we come to God on these terms, we realise that in us there is "no good thing" and not only that, there never will be. The moment we consider ourselves to be "good", we begin to idolise ourselves, and have no need to depend on God.This is what separates the true saint (one who is), from the "phraseological" saint (one who pretends). The first comprehends the fact that God is the only one with the ability to live a obedient life through us (Gal 2:20), because impossible for any of his choices to be obedient ones without dependance on Him. The second either thinks that he can do things to serve God (in spite on Acts 17:25), or that it doesn't matter what he does, because God forgives Him.The only true obedience is wholehearted dependance on God, and 99% "wholehearted obedient" is 100% self dependancy. So in answer to the question, "Can we obey God or not?", no we can't. However, God can make anyone obedient who is wholey dependant on Him.For futher exploration on this subjest, check out Righteous Submission vs Zealous Obedience to Principle.For anyone who wants a scriptural refernce for this statement, Gen 1:1-Rev 22:21 :-P.

Guilt is impossible without choice.I believe this is true. For decades I have wanted to register as a member of the British Evangelical Alliance, but my belief in this excludes me. The Intervarsities Christian Fellowships in the UK also exclude those who, consciously, believe this.A few months ago I was scheduled to speak at two meetings at Reading University. Two days before the first I had an email saying that I would have to sign their doctrinal statement. Theirs and the evangelical alliance's statement both include the notion that I acquired 'quilt' through Adam's sin. I do not believe this and could not sign; they cancelled my speaking appointments. Over the years my conviction that we do not acquire 'guilt' from Adam's sin has been costly to me.So much for my credentials. I do NOT believe that the human race has acquired 'guilt' as a result of Adam's sin. I hope I make my position clear. :-D Greg has some of my messages on this site. If you listen to Justification you will hear my reasons for rejecting the notion that guilt is imputed to the race as a result of sin. Guilt is a technical and legal word. It has nothing to do with the way I feel or the way I perceive my own sin. It has to do with 'blame-worthiness'. A man will only be held to account for that for which he is 'blame-worthy'; gulty. This is forensic language and consistent in its use in the scriptures. The man against whom an accusation could not be proved was declared 'justified'. The man against whom an accusation was proven was then sentenced and the sentence carried out. Listen to "Justification" and see if you agree with me.But Adam's sin opened the door for SIN to enter our race. This has nothing at all to do with 'guilt'. We are not acounted 'guilty' in scriptures for Adam's sin, but as a result of Adam's sin "SIN" entered. It was not 'created' by Adam's sin, it gained 'access' through Adam's sin. These distinctions are vital to this discussion. Please note again how carefully God gives us this revelation.Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Rom 5:12 KJV)'entered' is eiserchomai. erchomai is 'to come', eis is 'into; We are being told that'by one man Sin (and it has a definite article) entered into the (world) cosmos. Please think through what we are being told here. Adam did not 'create' sin, the Bible says he opened a door for it. Look at the room in which you are sitting. You entered into that room through a door. You did not create yourself when you entered. You pre-existed before you entered. Sin pre-dates the human race. One of the pedantic reasons I don't like the phrase 'original sin' is because Adam's sin was not the 'original sin'. Sin is older than Adam.Rom 5:12 says 'Death passed upon all men'. This does not do justice to the verb or the preposition. The verb is 'dierchomai'; that's 'erchomai' again but this time with the preposition 'dia' meaning 'through'. Death 'transversed' to all men. This is one of the reasons I don't like the phrase 'Hereditary Sin'; the emphasis is not passing 'down' but 'through'. In a moment of time, the Aorist tense is used throughout, 'sin entered the cosmos' and 'death transversed the human race'. Adam was the human race.I do not believe that God holds me 'guilty' for Adam's sin, but Adam's sin allowed SIN to pass into the human race. I am not 'guilty' of Adam's infringement but I have suffered the consequences of Adam opening the door to sin. In my human-ness I was 'begotten in his own likeness' Gen 5:3. This is why forgiveness, although a great joy, does not change me. I still have the same Adamic-spirit; his spiritual 'genes' if you like. This is why I need and why God provides 're-gene-ration.

Now we begin to realise, that obedience is about doing what God requires, and in the event of choosing our will over His, righting the wrong done by the only means perscribed. Calling on His Name, and trusting in His atoning sacrice. When we come to God on these terms, we realise that in us there is "no good thing" and not only that, there never will be. Aaron, your entire post was so good. I am living this. This is what has changed my Christian walk from one of frustration to one of victory. I struggle to put it into words, but you did a great job. I always come to God now, knowing that apart from him I can do nothing, but in him I can do it all. There's never anything in me that takes credit for any "success", because I know it wasn't me who succeeded. It was God. I feel completely able to live the Christian life now, because I know that I cannot do it. Does that make sense? I feel so, so, so freeeeee. That may not sound very edgecated, but it's for real. Love, Dian.

Aaron,Have you been studying or what? :-) Only a quick meddling, two that came to mind:The Spirit of Truth - Art Katz & Paul VolkMight be worth dredging up again...The other, snatched from the diary of OC and a letter to a friend of his and his wife;What we are is of much more use to God and our fellows than what we do. ‘Consider the lilies’ said Jesus our Lord. That is, do not get the ‘actuality’ fever; I mean this satanic idea of doing something. Be something ever as you are. I send you again John 14!Oswald ChambersAbandoned to God. I lied, one more...I feel completely able to live the Christian life now, because I know that I cannot do it. Does that make sense? Perfect sense!

Spitfire wrote:I feel completely able to live the Christian life now, because I know that I cannot do it. Does that make sense?Crystal clear Dian, crystal clear.:-)FreeCD wrote:For the Christian, obeying God and keeping His commandments are a natural part of his new life. Only the sinner finds it hard to walk in God's ways because he is trying to use the law as a means to his own end. the ultimate satisfaction of his own selfishness. He must fall.Ahh...Youth Aflame, I wouldn't be here now without that book :cry:. That's the crux of the problem, even considering the fact the we can have our own ends, that's the tragedy. Ever noticed that the closer you get to Jesus, the further from God you feel?crssck wrote:Only a quick meddling, two that came to mind:The Spirit of Truth - Art Katz & Paul VolkMight be worth dredging up again...I don't think think I'll ever been the same as I was before readin this book. :-? That and Apostolic Foundations. What can I say? anyone for an upheaval?

This ought to be the post to direct to, in our understanding of just what sin is and how it applies to us.I am just soaking this all in. Ron, and this article brought out from Freecd...This came to mind as well;Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. So much to draw from here...How about pulling this into the equation;(Actually two...)Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. The first it seems to be dawning on me now is in 'status' as to how things 'are'...Does that make sense?Perhaps someone can flesh that out...

crsschk wrote:How about pulling this into the equation;(Actually two...)Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. The first it seems to be dawning on me now is in 'status' as to how things 'are'...Does that make sense?Perhaps someone can flesh that out...In "Youth Aflame", Pratney mentions that Ps 51:5, could be refering to David's illegitamate birth (as some have speculated). Not sure about Ps 58:3, and not sure if I agree with Pratney either:-).

Oh you have to be quick sometimes but the old "Random Article" just threw out;"And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people...and I am come down to deliver them..."(Exod. 3:7-8). We all have some weak point in our character. When we would go forward, it drags us back, and when we would rise up into higher spheres of usefulness and the atmosphere of heaven, something drags us down. Now I have no sympathy with the idea that God puts us behind the blood and saves us, and then leaves us in Egypt to be under the old taskmaster. I believe God brings us out of Egypt into the promised land, and that it is the privilege of every child of God to be delivered from every foe, from every besetting sin. If there is some sin that is getting the mastery over you, you certainly cannot be useful. You certainly cannot bring forth fruit to the honor and glory of God until you get self-control. "He that ruleth his spirit is better than he that taketh a city." If we haven't got victory over jealousy and worldly amusements and worldly pleasure, if we are not delivered from all these things, we are not going to have power with God or with men, and we are not going to be as useful as we might be if we got deliverance from every evil. There isn't an evil within or without but what He will deliver us from if we will let Him. That is what He wants to do. As God said to Moses, "I have come down to deliver." If He could deliver three million slaves from the hands of the mightiest monarch on earth, don't you think He can deliver us from every besetting sin, and give us complete victory over ourselves, over our temper, over our dispositions, over our irritableness and peevishness and snappishness? If we want it and desire it above everything else, we can get victory. Delivered From Sin D.L. Moody