Were the disciples born again before or after Pentecost?

sermonindex Oct 22, 2012

Yesterday at our church fellowship we studied the work and ministry of the Holy Spirit in respect to being born again.

If you recall Jesus after He rose from the dead, breathed on His disciples and said, "receive the Holy Spirit". Also in Acts 19 Paul came across some disciples in Ephesus and asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed, to which they said no, and then Paul prays for them and they received the Holy Spirit. This brings up several questions in my mind that I would appreciate help with:

1) Do you think the disciples became born again of the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them? Or were they already born again, or did this happen on the day of Pentecost?
2) Do you think the Ephesus disciples were born again before Paul prayed for them?
3) If the Ephesus believers had not yet received the Holy Spirit and if they were not in fact born again, what would have happened to them if they had died in that state?

Any and all points of view are welcome...I am seeking answers, thank you brothers and sisters for your thoughtful input.
Mark

T

twayneb Oct 22, 2012

I don't they could not be born again until after the crucifixion. However, we are born again through faith in what Jesus has done for us. I think we could probably read out of the record of the interim period between the crucifixion and Pentecost that the disciples believed on Christ and put faith in what He did on the cross. My guess is that it was not only the disciples that believed. There were 120 who gathered in the upper room.

I may be wrong, but to me it seems your line of questioning presupposes that the infilling of the Holy Spirit is synonymous with salvation. I do not believe that to be the case, and perhaps that colors my answer a bit. Or perhaps you do not make a distinction between the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation and the experience of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that I believe is separate from and necessarily subsequent to salvation. Since I make that distinction, my answer will obviously be colored by that belief.

1) I would say they were born again at whatever time they put faith in the work of Christ and received His sacrifice for their sins. I cannot speak of the significance of Jesus breathing on them. I have never settled on exactly what happened in that moment. I guess you could be right and that could have been the moment of salvation, but I don't think it could be settled either way from scripture. What I do know is that we are born again when we put faith in Christ for our salvation.

2) I believe that the Ephesian believers were born again at the time of Paul's visit. Paul even says, "since you believed." If believing is the requirement for salvation, then surely they were saved. We don't typically refer to unsaved folk as believers.

3 To me, It appears clear from Acts 19 that they had not received the Holy Spirit prior to this time since they are recorded as having said, "We have never heard of any Holy Ghost", and summarily received the Holy Spirit.

sermonindex Oct 22, 2012

Hi brother, thanks for the comments. I utterly reject the notion that one must be baptized in the Holy Spirit in order to be saved, we are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone.

Perhaps we will never really know the answer to when each of these groups was actually born again/saved. The Lord said that the wind blows where it wills and no one understands it, so it is with all those who are born again. It would appear that becoming born again is not something an outsider can easily discern. In fact if it was that easy, why did Paul even have to ask them, "have you yet received the Holy Spirit."

I appreciate your comments on the Ephesus believers, they are very helpful.

Mark

C

Croref Oct 25, 2012

Hi folks. If I may add my .02:

Here Jesus speaks of all three manifestations of the Holy Spirit:

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter , that he may abide "with" you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for "he dwelleth with you", and shall be "in" you. John 14:16-17 (KJV)

1. Jesus was "with" the Disciples when speaking that.

2. Being in them, that speaks of being born again, was fulfilled in John 20:22: "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost"

3. The enduement for power happened at the "coming upon" here: "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat "upon" each of them. Acts 2:3 (KJV)

Luke 24 and Acts 1 speak of the instructions given the Disciples to not leave Jerusalem but to wait for the enduement before beginning their respective ministries and this was not unlike Jesus had to do before beginning His.

1. Jesus was born "indwelt" with the Word.
2. The Word was "with" Him for 30yrs.
3. The Holy Ghost came "upon" Him for His ministry; before being sent into the world.

I hope this will add something of worth to the discussion.

sermonindex Oct 25, 2012

This is a touchy subject. It can't be answered in a few words.

C

Croref Oct 25, 2012

Does that mean it shouldn't be discussed that one's thinking might be adjusted? For instance:

Acts 18;26 re Apollos and 19 the disciples of John with Paul, were not events that demonstrated the need of salvation or even indwelling but, the need for Pentecost in their ministry.

sermonindex Oct 25, 2012

This is a great question. We need to have more discussions like this, instead of some of the ones we generally have here.

Born again? Well, let's keep in mind that Jesus said "Unless a man be born again he can not see the kingdom of God". (John 3:3) He then went on to explain what that meant. Therefore we can conclude that there was such a thing as being "born again" before Acts chapter 2. And John 3:3 is very early in Jesus ministry.

Being reborn is a spiritual thing that happens to a person when God moves upon them and awaken their dead spirit... brings it back to life... resurrection. This has been happening ever since the fall and mans spirit was declared DOA. We are dead in our sins. Thats a state that mankind has been in since Eden. God then moves upon a man to quicken his soul... bring to life that which was dead.

Thats "born again". This DID happen to the disciples while they walked with Christ. For most of them (Judas was the exception) this happened to them when He called them to follow Him. Then they began the walk of sanctification.

They did not need the Holy Spirit while they walked with Christ. Thats not to say the Spirit of God was not among them, but they were walking and talking with God in the flesh. When Christ left them He sent another... the Holy Spirit... who taught, empowered, etc.

This is a great question, and I am glad it was asked. Made me think. I'm sure there will be others who may give a slightly different answer, but I do believe the disciples were "born again" before Acts chapter 2.

Krispy

C

Croref Oct 25, 2012

The new birth could NOT have occurred before Jesus resurrected and was glorified. This is crucial for the understanding of it because the new birth of man was for the indwelling of His Life in___ whom He chooses. There is a cost associated with it. If John 20:22 wasn't for this then why would the Disciples need it and that it wasn't for power for ministry which came later in Acts 2? OMT, John 20:22 was NOT the promise of the Father which was also Acts 2 as Peter spoke of it in vs 38,39.

sermonindex Oct 25, 2012

So God did not save anyone at all before the resurrection? Is that what you are saying?

Krispy

C

Croref Oct 25, 2012

Did they [the righteous] not die with only the promise of their redemption? Where did they go when they died? Why?

sermonindex Oct 25, 2012

This is where we will begin to get into the Calvinism debate. I believe each and every one them who came before the resurrection, died and were held in Abraham's Bossom were God's elect from the beginning of time. So at this point we will probably get into arguing semantics... only to find that we may or may not be saying the same thing.

Krispy

C

Croref Oct 25, 2012

I won't get into the Calvin thing in any of this. Even the elect or only those who are selected_the word means the same thing. However, we might ask "for what reason" to which I would reply, because they are born again and have proven their allegiance to God. Why I say that is because I believe Jesus chooses from among the saved those who hunger and thirst after knowing the Father as He declares eternal life to be. (cf John 17:3) They are a special people who, relative to Christianity at large, are few in number. By this, I make no distinction between a Disciple and a serious Christian__ "one who loves not his life even unto death".

. . . . this opposed to those who love this life but want Jesus, too__ in whom God has no pleasure.

sermonindex Oct 25, 2012

1) Do you think the disciples became born again of the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them? Or were they already born again, or did this happen on the day of Pentecost?

I will put it this way:

Christ did give them the Holy Spirit so they could do miracles in His name.

They still did not receive the promise of the ever present Holy Spirit dwelling within them. It was also impossible for them to have Christ truly dwelling within them.

They could not yet participate in Christ's divine nature. Like all old testament saints their sins were only covered, not yet totally taken away.

They did not yet have a new heart or a new Spirit and where not yet converted. They where not new creations in Christ until the day of Pentecost.

Only after Christ death and resurrection was the New Covenant enacted. Until Pentecost they all lived under the old Covenant.

2) Do you think the Ephesus disciples were born again before Paul prayed for them?

No! The bible is clearly states that they were only disciples of John the baptist.

3:3) If the Ephesus believers had not yet received the Holy Spirit and if they were not in fact born again, what would have happened to them if they had died in that state?

The same thing that happened to all old testament believers.

"The Christian life is not an imitation of Christ, but a direct new creation in Christ, and the union with Christ is so complete that He imparts His own nature to us and lives His own life in us. This, then, is not an imitation but simply the outgrowth of the nature implanted within.

We live Christlike because we have the Christ-life. God is not satisfied with anything less than perfection. He required that from His Son. He requires it from us, and He does not, in the process of grace, reduce the standard, but He brings us up to it. He does not let down the righteousness of the law, but He requires of us a righteousness that far exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, and then He imparts it to us. He counts us righteous in sanctification, and He says of the new creation, He that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous (I John 3:7).

Lord, live out Thy very life in me."

This is true Christianity.

look at https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=46388&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

sermonindex Oct 25, 2012

I asked the question because I want to understand the power of the gospel. The gospel or good news of Christ is the power of God to produce salvation to them that believe. I am passionate about knowing what it actually means to be saved. Is this the same as being born again? Is it instant or ongoing? What does it mean that "he who endures to the end shall be saved"? Can a person lose their salvation? Is it possible to believe in Christ but yet not be truly born again? Of course, but that would mean that we only think we believe, but do not indeed have saving faith, or rather do not have the faith that produces salvation.
1) "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."
2) "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?"
3) "that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith..."

I have no intention to stir up controversy, and I would never judge the salvation of anyone on this earth. If you knew my full testimony you would better understand why I ask these questions and the reason I am so eager to come to a knowledge of the Truth.

But let me just say this much. I once thought I was saved, I preached, taught, church planted, baptized and was all things Christian. But one day God woke me up and came to see that I did not KNOW HIM. Meaning I did not have the Spirit. That's all I will share for now, but from that day onwards I have been passionate about wanting to know for myself and to be able to explain to sinners and believers alike what it means to actually be saved.

I truly believe salvation is not as nearly well understood by even the most learned scholars as we think it is. Otherwise those scriptures above would be agreed on by all.

One thing I do know is this. The Kingdom of God consists of and is evidenced by the LIFE of God, manifested by the Holy Spirit...righteousness, peace and joy. Until recently I did not have the Spirit, yet I would have sworn black and blue that I was saved, because I placed my faith fully in the finished work of Christ. Evidently not.

Today, I take no chances with me, my family or anyone that I teach, not that I am able to or would ever want to judge another, but I do now know that if I do not have the Spirit of Christ, then I fail the test, according to Jesus and Paul and the whole counsel of scripture as far as I can tell.

Yours in Christ,
Mark

sermonindex Oct 25, 2012

I won't get into the Calvin thing in any of this. Even the elect or only those who are selected_the word means the same thing. However, we might ask "for what reason" to which I would reply, because they are born again and have proven their allegiance to God. Why I say that is because I believe Jesus chooses from among the saved those who hunger and thirst after knowing the Father as He declares eternal life to be. (cf John 17:3) They are a special people who, relative to Christianity at large, are few in number. By this, I make no distinction between a Disciple and a serious Christian__ "one who loves not his life even unto death".

So their salvation was based upon what they did? Their works?

Krispy

sermonindex Oct 25, 2012

Dear Tuc,
I thank you for your response, I think I am on the same page as you in regard to these matters.

To anyone who cares to respond...do you think there is any correlation at all between between being born of the flesh and being born of the Spirit? By this I mean, that there is a process that takes place with the natural birth, could there likewise be process with the Spirit Birth?

1) Conception. The new child is conceived...life begins, yet we would not yet say the child is "born".
2) Gestation. The new life is developing, if it emerges too soon, the life will be lost...we would still not consider this child to have been "born" yet though.
3) Passing through the birth canal. The child is almost born, not quite though...and in fact there is some degree of peril yet and this is the most dangerous stage of the "birth"...many things can go wrong. We may see the head, feel the pain, but the child is still, almost but not quite, yet "born".
4) Delivery. Hooray!!! The child is finally delivered out from the mothers womb into a new world, to breathe the air of its parents. Now we would say, the child has finally been BORN!!!

Though, I concede, it is the product of my overly productive imagination to think that being "born again" means to actually come forth from the "womb of God", there is something to be said of this. "Born from above", "born of the Spirit". So for that reason I offer the curious analogy of how we are actually born again, that mysterious process. Perhaps the process is more arduous and involved than we think which would almost explain the parable of the sower and why so many, never fully come through to true saving faith in Christ.

In all of these ponderings though my dear brothers and sisters, may our goal be first and foremost, that we might KNOW HIM.

Much love in Christ,
Mark

C

Croref Oct 25, 2012

I can well relate to you, Mark. I professed Christ and did the Christian thing and yet I did the worldly thing. Cutting to the chase, I got desperate for waiting for God to do what we are given to believe, "Come to Jesus and He will change your life" to happen. The magical thing never happened.

I am a man with many years behind me, most unprofitable in Christ. I have many hobbies, interests and talents. My Bible reads God is a consuming fire. In my desperation and sincerity, I cried out for God to consume everything in my life that hindered my relationship with Him. Guess what?

It is for that reason and experience that I believe I am now truly born again. I can not explain it any other way AND it has led me to conclude there is a distinction between being saved and being born again where it is we first choose Him and to not assume He chooses us until we mean business. Then I searched the scriptures to see there is no difference between a Christian and a disciple of Jesus Christ. Read what is required that Jesus states as mandatory.
John 17:3 speaks of what eternal is. Let Him who desires to know, "first count the cost" because there is a price to pay.

Question: Why do we see what we readily call nominalism in the Christian church and then lets make correction to our own thinking about where we are in the scheme of things of God with regards to our being born from above. Are we there?

C

Croref Oct 25, 2012

So their salvation was based upon what they did? Their works?

Krispy

How 'bout we conclude He chooses those who love Him__and demonstrate it?

C

Christinyou Oct 25, 2012

Jesus was the Word. As His humanity matured, so in human form, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Even at 12 years of age in the temple they marveled at His words.

Jesus said Himself, "The Holy Spirit cannot come until He, "Jesus" is gone. He was gone at pentecost and that is when the Holy Spirit came to believers to be in them. Not upon them.

John 14:1-4 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Even as He prayed the Father to send the Holy Spirit Comforter.

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Not upon them.

And Jesus said He would not leave us comfortless either.
He would come back in the Spirit of Gods Son birthed in the believers, that the Father's house would be full of Spirit and Christ filled children who are the only ones capable of being in the Fathers House.

John 14:18-20 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. Not upon them.

Where are we going? John 14:3-4 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

We will be received us unto Himself; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is what we are waiting for; keep looking up.

All based upon what He has done and what He is doing.

IN Christ: Phillip

C

Croref Oct 25, 2012

Jesus said Himself, "The Holy Spirit cannot come until He, "Jesus" is gone. He was gone at pentecost and that is when the Holy Spirit came to believers to be in them.

. . . to be Upon them brother__not IN them. He was already in them. Cf John 17:3.