God does not go against the will of man.

I don't believe we can understand Jesus Christ without first understanding the creation of man. That said I believe this not simply because of what we are given of Jesus Christ but also of Adam __thus my OP:

God does not go against the will of man.

I make that a statement because in the beginning was it proven to be the case __ even as far back as what we read of Lucifer__ the purpose of whose existence is not yet exhausted.

Note: Though He may sometimes make man willing to be willing, God never forces man to obey.

Our Bible says this: "A man's heart devises his way: but the LORD directs his steps." Proverbs 16:9 (KJV)

Might we see that God uses man's will [good or bad] for His purposes and not of God decreeing this or that thus making man to be a puppet He created to bring about His ultimate intention set in Himself? What was God's ultimate intention from the beginning that if this is true, as I believe it is, can only be accomplished by "love"?

by KrispyKrittr on 2012/11/2 6:46:51

I disagree with the premise of this.

You are basically saying that the course of history has been set by the will of man,

Is this not what was started by Adam __ and that God planned for such an eventuality?

and God has to constantly adjust in order to accomplish His will without violating the will of men. If this is the case the question must be asked: who is the read God? Man or God?

I did not say God's will was determined by man's will? Read the OP again.

by KrispyKrittr on 2012/11/2 8:03:15

I dont know... you've done a good job of being vague enough so that someone can read this and take it in two different directions. :-)

How so?? Unless God made man a robot, He had to use man's freewill to bring about His purposes. Does not the scripture I submitted say as much, i.e., "man devises his way but God directs his steps"? Try to see it as being what God "wills" despite man's will and something He needs not overrule but simply uses..

Who said this: "you meant it for evil but God for good"

"I don't believe we can understand Jesus Christ without first understanding the creation of man. That said I believe this not simply because of what we are given of Jesus Christ but also of Adam __thus my Op"
I'm a little confused...Understanding the creation of man is not a prerequisite to understanding Jesus Christ. I do agree we can not understand the nature of our salvation in Christ without understanding the nature of our lostness in Adam

by stevet83 on 2012/11/2 8:27:37

"I don't believe we can understand Jesus Christ without first understanding the creation of man. That said I believe this not simply because of what we are given of Jesus Christ but also of Adam __thus my Op"
I'm a little confused...Understanding the creation of man is not a prerequisite to understanding Jesus Christ. I do agree we can not understand the nature of our salvation in Christ without understanding the nature of our lostness in Adam

Why not consider what was purposed by God in His forming Adam that Adam did not accomplish and for which Jesus is called the "second Adam"?

Can u phrase the question differently, still not getting it. Thanks

You mean this, Steve?

"Why not consider what was purposed by God in His forming Adam that Adam did not accomplish and for which Jesus is called the "second Adam"?"

What is unclear?

If anyone can see themselves clear of the cross being simply for salvation from hell to see God had something in mind set in Himself, in mankind, that mankind was to be the full expression of Himself in human flesh, then we might understand more the reason for the cross to be the restoration of His Divine purpose.

hi, your understanding of God has good points and errors as does everyones. in 2 posts after being encouraged to go witness;you broughtforth the same statement"why go unless you have the annointing"Jesus is the only annointed one. the Holy Spirit shows up and brings forth that annointing when ever we go and preach Jesus.i have seen hundreds saved and their lives changed in personal witness.the Holy Spirit will come on the scene and change minds and hearts.paul was on his way to persecute christians and was overwhelmed by God without knowing who overwhelmed him."who art thou,Lord"?we all are single plane thinkers,but God sees the end from the beginning.our will must be reversed in order to be saved.we all gather around the same tree adam ate of and gorge at the tree of religion while we reject the tree of Life until the Holy Spirit changes us.jimp

Your post is not that clear and little confusing. But I agree with the parts that I understood. God does not take the free will from man. It is a lie to say that God will do it. The scripture is clear when it says 'Gifts and calling of God are irrevocable' - Romans 11:29. Free Will is a gift that God has given to us. If he removed it from us then we will become Robots. No where in New Covenant it is written that God has removed it from us. But some man-made doctrines that are based on partial truths forces such thinking and that is why many reject this truth in scripture.

If God wanted to remove the freewill he could have done it immediately when Adam and Eve sinned. To understand why he let us have the Freewill we need to understand what Holiness means. God has called us to be Holy and blameless in his sight (Ephesians 1:4). We have planets and stars that obey God and keep spinning around with same velocity each and everyday, can they be considered Holy? No because they do not have a freewill. I can create a Robot that obeys all my commands but I cannot call it a son or daughter, because it does not obey me out of freewill. That is why God gave us this freewill and he will never remove it. Removing it means we can never become Holy.

The concept of Holy Spirit transforming our life comes out of our obedience to him that we choose out of our free will. God strengthens us to be obedient to him. This how even Jesus lived on this earth - 'I have come to do not my will but the will of my father' (John 6). So Jesus himself obeyed his father by not doing his will. He had a will of his own like us but he choose not to do it.

by Sree on 2012/11/2 12:32:05

Your post is not that clear and little confusing. But I agree with the parts that I understood.

I don't see your confusion in this insofar as you seem to understand that given our freewill, God must be using it to bring about His end purpose, i.e., "bringing many sons unto Glory".

Again, you support my contention:

The concept of Holy Spirit transforming our life comes out of our obedience to him that we choose out of our free will. God strengthens us to be obedient to him. This how even Jesus lived on this earth - 'I have come to do not my will but the will of my father' (John 6). So Jesus himself obeyed his father by not doing his will. He had a will of his own like us but he choose not to do it.

freewill, God must be using it to bring about His end purpose, i.e., "bringing many sons unto Glory".

But how God uses our freewill for his Glory is an area in which the Bible is not clear. There should be a purpose for not keeping in plain. May be we do not have the wisdom to understand his ways. Or even a Book like Bible cannot contain the numerous ways in which he can use our free will.

Bible is clear that God has a foreknowledge and he knows the decisions we are going to make. When Adam sinned God was not surprised by it but he immediately revealed his plan to Crush the Satan and deliver mankind from Sin by sending his Son Jesus. But the fact that God knows our future short comings already does not free us from the Judgement for our actions.

the problem is that the free will of man is bondage to his sinfull flesh ,and his sinfull coruptive carnal mind is enmity againsts god and is not subject to the high law of god ,,,,,,but even god decred the cureses of courption to come on mans ofspring ,and all the worlds as a result

in this state of mans carnal mind and will being at emity with god and being in bondage ,,,his origanal free will his not capable of willing to do righeous acts ,,he is a sinnner to the core will and all other emotions are facalitys are stained ,,god must make the first move in any reconcilation that takes place ,,gods will is absulty sovern in this situation

and in the situation of the fall and bongade into courption in wich all men live ,, it is also a soveran act of the all mighty god , that he might show glory and mercy accoring to his good pleasure his good pleaser and pourpus
it is not of him who wills nor him who runs but of god who shows mercy

it is gods free will that makes all the diffrence and he determins who he draws in to full salvation based souly on his pourpus election and i believe of him working goodness in the men he predestines ,,
and he dertimins who he draws part of the way and lets them go ,,and he determins who will remained vailed to glory
it is god who works in you both to will
and to do for his god please

mans will is free to sin is way to hell

if the lord of saboth has not left us the seed
we would all be made in to sodom ,and turned out like gomera i think paul said that

blessings

how god gets glory using us as christans ,tho many dont want to give him the glory he deserves

he works in us both to will and to do for his good pleasuer and his glory

he effects our corupted will that is set againts all godliness ,and mingles his perfect will with ours

therefore when we do what is good ,and use our will for good ,it is god causeing it to happen , it his him working in us to will and to do

so its not about christans having an abrartary free will where by he goes around doing good by is OWN FREENESS OF WILL ,,and people see how good he is by his OWN FREE WILL ,and therfore people say wow them christians are good people ,lets praise jesus

i will cause you to walk in my statutes
and you will be carfull to do them ,,,,said a certaint prophert

it god geting all the glory in any good his children do because it his him that causes and decrees the good deeds

he works through broken vesels ,that he prepared for his own glory ,,vesels of his mercy

it all about him ,and that is all there is to it

wether we like it or not ,thats the GLORY OF GOD

A very good example of what I am speaking of is Abraham making the decision to go into Egypt and when the 10 sons sold Joseph into bondage __and lets not forget Adam.
Now, having said that, can you speak of a time when God went against man's will for the advancement of His purpose__even Balaam makes the cut.

I made the assertion that God only USED man's will to advance His.

a good example of god going againts the sinner is salvation of a carnal sinner whos mind and will is at enmity against god ,, gods makes the rebel willing

the gosple is a spirtual based oracl from the lips of the holy spirit
and the bible says the carnal man can not recieve the things of the spirit for it is foolish to him

the carnal man will not recieve the things of the spirit

the carnal man is not willing to recieve the things of the spirit ,is a fine example of god going agansts the will of man ,and even changing the nature of the will of man ,to be willing to reciev the things of the spirit

a mighty mirical

but it definitly obvious that god even uses the fallen will of men to acomplish his purpose of judment and even blessings ,and what is more he claims that when he does this ,it is him who does it it is a decree set forth from the will of the creator,,,which shows his abslut sovernty over creation and over the so called
free will of man

gods free will in these examples is shown to take preemenence over mans will

just as it is over the wind and the sea

and yet man is not a robot or pupet ,,how unfavenable is his decress an his ways passed finding out ,,,oh paul said somthing like that as well

by brothagary on 2012/11/2 15:27:35

a good example of god going againts the sinner is salvation of a carnal sinner whos mind and will is at enmity against god ,, gods makes the rebel willing

". . . . . then began men to call upon the name of the LORD". Genesis 4:26 (KJV)

Want a few more where God didn't make man do anything you espouse??

Read Romans 1 before replying. Thank you.

hi croef, why do you pull a verse out of gen. to apply to today?we live under a new and better covenant.Jesus has come and has set the captives free. He has ascended into heaven and has sent the comforter in full measure. we now are a peculiar people who are seated with Him in heavenly places.each one of us at one time were enemies of God. in order to be saved the Holy Spirit has moved upon our wicked and evil hearts and made them into hearts of flesh.He had to move onto our wills which were totally egocentric and change us so that we can turn our will over to the Lord.(repentance)He must show us the only way to eternal life is to be buried with Him and in Him daily.jimp

with all respect one should keep the scripture in a full contex

that scripture you posted in genesis ,does not contradict the scripture in the new testament that paul wrote

''when he said the carnal man cannot recieve the things of the spirit;; or the words jesus spoke when he said

''these words i speak to you are spirit''
the bible says the carnl mind of man is ''at enmity against god ''

i used the word rebel to describ the one at enmity against god ,who cant recieve the things of the spirit ,,the bible says cant recieve ,,god must interven to make him willing and able to recieve what is imposable because of him being an enemy of god

god must effect the mind and will is conected to the mind

if we look at pauls conversion ,,his will was greatly effected ,,,god came against paul and pauls stubern christ hating will , and changed it , a miracle one that was so against gods will ,was changed to preach christ , in a short amount of time ,,as he said quot ,,it was god who worked in them both to will and to do

god begane to break his self will ,and worked in him to do some of the most amasing things for gods good pleasure

iv read romons maby a hundered times ,,and it is one of my favourt letters from paul ,wich points to the sovernty of gods will

is there a particular verse you had in mind

that verse you posted in genesis kept in contex with the rest of scripture teaching on the sovernty ,suggest

that god indused men to call on him by his holy spirit by faith

he gave certaint ones revalation of his presence and in that presesnce with that revalation of his reality being ,they called on him ,as many call on him today as you or i

blessings