the first sin

oridgnaly our father of dust the first adam commited sin against god ,and as we christians are now part of the body of christ who is the seconed adam ,we were part of the body of adam , in whoms loins we all were

in the same way we now partake of the devine nature through being born again ,
we all partook of image of the man of dust ,a corputed nature ,,,that which is born of flesh is flesh ,in a wider contex speaks about us being born spirtual dead

when adam oridgnaly sinned all those in the body of adam died the spirtual death ,and we remained dead in adam ,till we were made alive in christ ,,bless god

roms ;5 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men

tho as the sons of adam willfully sin and hold down and supress the reveled comons truths of concence and gods atrubutes

romans teaches it was through adams firts sin , that resulted in us being condemed and found guilty ,contrary to popular teachings

romons 5;19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

not only did the sons of adam suffer condemnation because of adams sin ,,we in adam were all made sinners as mentioned before

we bore the image of the man of dust as paul said

this hapend wile in the loins of adam ,,

made sinners refures to us being created sinners , this happend in one scence before the foundation of the world ,and was experanced at conception or creation of our bodies

rom 5;12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

we from this verse see that death came to all thoses that sinned

and the fact remains that as babies and children experance death ,,,,this proves that death can come upon them beause they were in adam when he sinned ,, when adam sinned and died spirtual all who are in his body sinned and died spirtual ,,and the reflection of is the pycical death that can be expernced any time in the natural mans life

we in christ inherit death ,through christs death along with resarection life ,,bless god

we who are in or were in adam inherit sin and death with out resarection life , through adams sin and his spirtual death

in contrass

the gift of righeoteous is imputed to us through christ and his righeousness

roms 5 18and through one mans offence (adam), judment came to all men resulting in condemnation

the curse of sin ws imputed ,because of adams disobedance

in the same way the elect were created to partake in the devine nature ,through death and resarection
roms 6;5 says we were united with him in his death

humans were united to partake in the courption of adam through his spirual death ,and inherit the opasite of the devine nature

that god might show what it means to express grace and mercy, in all there defenitions

with out the fall ,there woould be no mercy or justafication and full expresions of grace

god works all thing for good to thoses who are called according to his pourpus

amen

Amen...
Under Adam:
We're born in sin and inherit condemnation .

Under Christ:
We're born again in righteousness and inherit eternal life

just for the record bro ,,iv never ever read a comentary from any reformer or even been a member of a reformed church ,or herd a sermon on oridgnal sin ,,tho i do believe some of what is called reformed doctrine

i just think the bible teaches oridgnal sin and other doctrines that are taught in reformed circuls

blessings

p1118 Niv Student Bible 1 John commentary Zondervan 1992
//Gnostics balked at the Christian concept of Gods becoming human.because they believed a physical body was intrinsically evil,they denied a pure God could take on a body. Some dealt with the problem by claiming that Jesus was never a human being,but a phantom,a temporary appearance of God who looked human....
The apostle John debated in person with gnostics of his day,and had Gnostic thinking in mind when he wrote this letter.....
throughout the letter especially in 4:2-3,the author lambastes those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh.....
Live as you please
To Gnostics all matter was evil . Only the Spirit was pure,and Gnostics sought to rise to a higher more spirtual plane.This teaching produced side effect:people who strove to rise above matter didn't care about personal ethics.Their pure spirits could not be tainted by "earthly" sin Thus,they could act any way they wanted.//

If the physical body is intrinsically evil Than what about the flesh of Jesus ??

Was Jesus Christ our Lord, not made of the seed of David according to the flesh ??

Hi amrkelly, the last post in that thread which by the way I will say was written by a dear sister,but that does not mean that I am in agreement was Augustines position I see very little evidence for it other than the Fact that Jesus was begotten Of God and not Joseph.(a large conclusion to form just from that fact)

amrkelly can you show any evidence of such a position being held by the early church fathers before Augustine??

all matter is not evil, only a gnostic would sugest that

but as james said ,the spirit the dwels in man lusts to do evil ,
matter is good a courptive influenec did inter in to the spirit or the heart of man ,,leading to do evil

the bible talks about those who are born againg are not born of courptable seed john chapter 1

the courption is inbeded in to the seed of adam ,, not only that we also see this coruption in animals and plants ,,which was subject to futility but not willingly paul said that,,,,it grones in this courption ,till the reveling of the sons of god

this is not gnostisims ,,,becase it is the opasite

matter is good ,,but the spirit is evil is what total depravity is ,that was the result of the oridgnal sin

they say matter is evil and spirit is good

its utterly a satanic doctrine

men being givern over to the evil prince ,,the spirit of the prince and power of the air ,which is the spirit that works in the children of desobedance

in which we all walked before the new birth

paul taught that

blessings

i hope you and your wife are doing well andrew ,,good to see your still posting here

blessings

Hi amrkelly even though I have not came to the same conclusion as what you have on this subject, I also am glad to see you posting, you have much to offer.

Hi amrkelly even though I have not came to the same conclusion as what you have on this subject, I also am glad to see you posting, you have much to offer.

your right proudpapa i agree he has much to offer,,tho my hearts resonates with much andrews writes

oh that link you posted was an interestion read andrew

I think often times people jump to a strong defense of this doctrine because they think that by denying it that you are some how denying the sinfulness of mankind or somehow suggesting that man is able to save himself apart from the Grace of God or that some how by denying this doctrine, that men are some how denying their own personal sinfulness.

None of the which I find is a true, Preachers whom have challenged this doctrine have been blacklisted from the Church such as Finney.

Of all the sermons that I have heard the one that seems to expose mans depravity the best and most accurately I feel is Ten Shekels and a Shirt by Paris Reidhead.
of whom spoke out strongly against Augustines understanding of original sin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHgsZv1JyJE

Brothagary,
My bad bro, my intention wasn't to label, just to point out an obvious distinction between those who believe in this doctrine(myself included) please accept my sincere apology... I to do not consider myself a Calvinist or any other "ist", but some things are to clear to deny in the Scriptures.

Your bro in Christ,
Steve.

no brother steve ,i never said what i said ,to get an apolagy,,no need to apolagiz ,,i never concidered it an attack ,,bless you ,,just thought i would make my possision a little more clear that all

blessings

hi proud papa

iv herd ten shekels many times ,and listent to the link you posted ,,,,

and what iv noticed and disagree with is that both do not deal with or explain that scripture that expressed the idea of us all being made sinners by adams desobedence

romans 5;19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

we all know what parise says and agree that we wanted to sin so we are sinners for that reason

but the bibles we were made sinners by adams transgreshen

and this is not delt with

we can all rave talk about the false doctrine one like augustine held and blame him for the reformed churches teaching orignal sin ...which may be partly true

but whoes going to explain and give and exposae of the verses like the one above and the others i posted like

roms ;5 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men

which shows i believe verry clearly we are condemed in adam becasue of the first and ordiginal sin comited by our parents

thats the question

i here everyone esteam the bible and so we should ,,why then do we go to sermons from others who in my view have not givern a fullexposision on the versees that are usesd to suport the doctrine of oridginal sin to explain what the verses are realy saying

paris reid head does not touch at all on these verses

i cant work out why this is ,

blessings

Hi brothagary

Why did God make man??

Why did God create man so that he could sin??

Why Did God place the temptation right in the midst of the garden ??

Romans 5 is speaking of physical death, no one is denying that the fall had serious implications for all of mankind and all of creation, My point is that the infant is naked and not ashamed he has no guilt in his conscience because he understands no law as Romans 5 says "sin is not imputed when there is no law." nevertheless Death still reigns as we agree Adams sin has consequences for all of creation being removed from the Garden from God from the tree of life causes everything to naturally die.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Just as when we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead righteousness is imputed on us at this moment.

When we personally come into a state of understanding as Paul speakes of in Romans 7:9 and we fail our own understanding (our own judgmentof right and wrong guilt enters into the conscience and condemnation (Sin) is revived from our parents unto our own. Paul says at this state "I died."
guilt entered his soul and as in Adam all die.
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation

edit: I was working on two post at the same time accidently pressed the wrong submit repasted instantly and replaced post, because I was not finished with the other one and it did not make any sense with what I had written thus.

hi proud pappa

you asked andrew kelly weather it was taught before agustine wiki seems to indacate that this doctrine was beleieved in the second centry

The concept of original sin was first alluded to in the 2nd century by Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons in his controversy (written in Greek) with the dualist Gnostics.[2] Its scriptural foundation is based on the New Testament teaching of Paul the Apostle (Romans 5:12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:22). Tertullian, Cyprian, Ambrose and Ambrosiaster considered that mankind shares in Adam's sin, transmitted by human generation

i havent verfied this in the writings of the church fathers

but i dare to say is probaly correct

Hi brothagary no one is denying the fall, It is the extreme conclusions that theolgy has placed upon the fall.

wiki also says ///The Greek Fathers emphasized the cosmic dimension of the Fall, namely that since Adam human beings are born into a fallen world, but held fast to belief that man, though fallen, is free.[2] They thus did not teach that human beings are deprived of free will and involved in total depravity, which is one understanding of original sin.[10][11] During this period the doctrines of human depravity and the inherently sinful nature human flesh were taught by Gnostics, and orthodox Christian writers took great pains to counter them.[12][13] Christian Apologists insisted that God's future judgment of humanity implied humanity must have the ability to live righteously.[14][15]///

I feel that I am in agreement with this