A different Kingdom?

"If we preach the effects of Redemption in human life instead of the revelation regarding Jesus, the result in those who listen is not new birth, but refined spiritual culture, and the Spirit of God cannot witness to it because such preaching is in another domain....a different Kingdom" . . O. Chambers

Bring on the "self-Help" books, folks. For such is the way of today's "visible" church__the result of such teaching.

regarding = preaching 'the effects' of Redemption instead of Jesus.

Thanks for posting that quote. I have never seen it expressed so clearly.

Couldn't agree with you more on the 'self-help' books. If man was able to 'help' himself then he would not need Jesus.

Kind regards,
white stone

"If we preach the effects of Redemption in human life instead of the revelation regarding Jesus, the result in those who listen is not new birth, but refined spiritual culture, and the Spirit of God cannot witness to it because such preaching is in another domain....a different Kingdom" . . O. Chambers
____________________________

Is this statement by Chambers of no interest to anyone who sits in his church week after week listening to the same salvation message preached, ad nauseam? The same plea given to those who have already worn out their "rededicaters"?

by White_Stone on 2012/11/11 6:44:53

regarding = preaching 'the effects' of Redemption instead of Jesus.

Thanks for posting that quote. I have never seen it expressed so clearly.

Couldn't agree with you more on the 'self-help' books. If man was able to 'help' himself then he would not need Jesus.

Kind regards,
white stone
________________________________

Thank You, White stone. You reply was refreshing__and encouraging.

Dear Croref

Great quote.

Please drop the "ad nauseam" thing. Try finding a less upsetting alternative to "ad infinitum".

Blessings

jochbaptist,

The two phrases are not interchangable. See below,

ad nauseam = to a sickening or excessive degree

ad infinitum = to infinity; endlessly; without limit

---
To be endless and without limit describes God's Grace.

You could not substitute that for something which continues to the point of being sickening.

To preface such a suggestion with praise and end it with a blessing does not change the taste or tone.

ws

by jochbaptist on 2012/11/14 5:32:56

Dear Croref

Great quote.

Please drop the "ad nauseam" thing. Try finding a less upsetting alternative to "ad infinitum".

Blessings
___________________________________

I wish it was otherwise that I could, Brother. Fact is, I don't need to re-dedicate my life every meeting time. I am not a 'victim' Jesus sympathizes with. I am not any,longer a sinner saved by grace. He saved me, years ago. Therefore, I was a sinner saved by grace. I am now a saint learning how to be faithful IN the Father__and I am learning to do that mostly on my own__since the church doesn't speak of Jesus after meeting. Ergo, if the Church is purposed to express Christ and be an outlet for corporate worship it should do so and not continually "beat up" the sheep by bringing them under condemnation and making the message of salvation its shallow "pep rally" theme _ad nauseam. Sorry. It is not and never will be a, sustaining message. What's left for a reason to go except the chicken dinner.
Our nation is in an irreversible death struggle because the church_____again, has failed to police itself of it's watered down "only believe" doctrine..

OMT: I attend a Baptist church. I go not for the shallow message nobody remembers or the "rote" worship, Stanzas 1,2,&4 out of the hymnal on the same 3 hymns but, because I have some friends there who, on early weekday mornings meet at the local Mickey D's and talk about the ball game.

What is supposed to come after salvation in your mind, jochbaptist?___And how is it in your assembly?

Dear W-S

Sorry to be unclear on this.

What I meant to ask, was for an alternative use of the word ad nauseam. Maybe I am wrong, but there is something unsavoury about the term to me.

I can see that one can debate endlessly arround an issue, but why take it to a point of being sickening when you are a child of God?

My "tone" was against the tone in ad nauseam.

Blessings

delete

by jochbaptist on 2012/11/14 7:03:17

Dear W-S

Sorry to be unclear on this.

What I meant to ask, was for an alternative use of the word ad nauseam. Maybe I am wrong, but there is something unsavoury about the term to me.

I can see that one can debate endlessly arround an issue, but why take it to a point of being sickening when you are a child of God?

My "tone" was against the tone in ad nauseam.

Blessings
________________________________________

Children of God need milk. Sons of God need meat.

Dear Croref

To be discipled, and to follow Him, seeking His Kingdom and storing up treasures there.

My assembly? You ask a hard question Bro. They sure don't live up to what it could be, neither do I. But as iron sharpens iron we shape each other's countenance. The closer I am to My Father, the greater the blessing of our interactions.

Got to run .... Planning to have family assembly (I like your alternative word for "church")tonight. Want to share with my wife & 4 daughters what is on my heart for us at the moment - obedience.

by Croref on 2012/11/14 7:06:15

Croref,

You have no idea, what you have just done. To delete your post, you have cancelled the work of God's Holy Spirit. How do you feel right, now! Are you in anyway grieved, do you not understand..That when Jesus died on the cross, it was for you as well as for myself, and others who accepted the invitation towards Salvation. Do you not fear, the living God in the Moderators? For this i am out!!

Believers, have been saved from the guilt and penalty of sin. Believers, have been saved from the habit and dominion of sin. Believers, will be saved at the Lord's return, from all the bodily infirmities, and curse; brought into an entire conformity to Christ..

Salvation, is by grace throught faith. It's a free gift and wholly without works. The devine order: is First Salvation, then works.

To insinuate that you were once saved and no longer need salvation, sounds selfrighteous; in essence the cross means nothing to you, and the fact that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. I guess communion means the same thing to you as well. When was the last time you had communion and repented of your sins; remebering who hung on the Cross? God looked for someone that would stand in the gap and intercede, he found no-one, so he himself interceded for us, he paid the price.

Enough said...

Those of us who know there is more in the scriptures having to do with God seeking those with a pure motivation, to know Him for Who He is rather than to know Him because of His great salvation, will always have a problem when conversing with those who don’t see it that way. The arguments presented most often stem from an incomplete understanding of the gospel; from that part having to with the assurance of their own welfare in Christ and not from the desire to serve Him for His sake alone. Depending upon which side of the issue of redemption one stands will determine how he reads his bible which will reveal what you are up against when the discussion ever so slightly deepens. It will be from either a self-centered perspective or a God-centered one__and we know full well which side the enemy loves for us to take.

can some one explain me what is meant by this with an example?
'effects of Redemption in human life'.

I am not a theologian and I do not understand certain terms commonly used by such people.

According to me 'effects of redemption in human life' means the change that being redeemed with God can bring inside us. Which according to me is Holiness, Christlikeness, divine love for the neighbors etc. What is wrong in preaching them?

by Sree on 2012/11/16 7:22:32

can some one explain me what is meant by this with an example?
'effects of Redemption in human life'.

I am not a theologian and I do not understand certain terms commonly used by such people.

According to me 'effects of redemption in human life' means the change that being redeemed with God can bring inside us. Which according to me is Holiness, Christlikeness, divine love for the neighbors etc. What is wrong in preaching them?

Would that not be the effects of being "born again".

The effects of redemption without being born again, which is what is being presented, can only be the results of having a presumptive perspective, i,e., Jesus did therefore I am__lets go get our chicken dinner.

Would that not be the effects of being "born again".

The effects of redemption without being born again, which is what is being presented, can only be the results of having a presumptive perspective, i,e., Jesus did therefore I am__lets go get our chicken dinner.

If we preach the effects of Redemption in human life instead of the revelation regarding Jesus, the result in those who listen is not new birth, but refined spiritual culture, and the Spirit of God cannot witness to it because such preaching is in another domain....a different Kingdom

If we preach the effects of Redemption in human life like Holiness instead of the revelation regarding the life of Jesus, then the listeners will not be regenerated they will only have a refined spiritual culture and not the true life of Christ (like the form of external Godliness that Paul explains to Galatians).

You are trying to tell me that he said preaching these effects of redemption to people who are not born again will result in people assuming that the work is already done. This is true but I am not sure the speaker is refering to this scenario. Please correct me if I am wrong.

by Sree on 2012/11/16 8:58:46

Would that not be the effects of being "born again".

The effects of redemption without being born again, which is what is being presented, can only be the results of having a presumptive perspective, i,e., Jesus did therefore I am__lets go get our chicken dinner.

If we preach the effects of Redemption in human life instead of the revelation regarding Jesus, the result in those who listen is not new birth, but refined spiritual culture, and the Spirit of God cannot witness to it because such preaching is in another domain....a different Kingdom

If I paraphase it according to my understanding then :-

If we preach the effects of Redemption in human life like Holiness instead of the revelation regarding the life of Jesus, then the listeners will not be regenerated they will only have a refined spiritual culture and not the true life of Christ (like the form of external Godliness that Paul explains to Galatians).

You are trying to tell me that he said preaching these effects of redemption to people who are not born again will result in people assuming that the work is already done. This is true but I am not sure the speaker is refering to this scenario. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I believe he is but I don't have a problem with your take on it either. Either way, presumption seems to be the thing that is birthed in them. A crossless Christ easily comes to mind; salvation without repentance. I can live my life and still have Jesus which is an open door for the promotion of additional false teachings found in Christian psychology self help books.

Thanks Sree. I think you are on track.

Either way, presumption seems to be the thing that is birthed in them. A crossless Christ easily comes to mind; salvation without repentance. I can live my life and still have Jesus which is an open door for the promotion of additional false teachings found in Christian psychology self help books.

I agree with you. I see this presumption in some posters here. This presumption has blinded their eyes from seeing their own spiritual condition. They have some theoretical idea of salvation that cannot be lived but only understood in brain. Such a understanding is useless. If I cannot see Jesus saving me practically then what is the use if I end up in heaven? Christainity is 100% practical, every word can be lived and Jesus showed us that. That is why John described Jesus as - 1 John 1:1-
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us.

Jesus manifested or demonstrated the word of eternal life. It is not some theology that he explained, it is a life. This is our calling as well.

by Sree on 2012/11/16 9:49:31

I agree with you. I see this presumption in some posters here. This presumption has blinded their eyes from seeing their own spiritual condition. They have some theoretical idea of salvation that cannot be lived but only understood in brain. Such a understanding is useless. If I cannot see Jesus saving me practically then what is the use if I end up in heaven? Christainity is 100% practical, every word can be lived and Jesus showed us that. That is why John described Jesus as - 1 John 1:1-
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us.

Thank you Sree. We will all know we are on the right track when our motivation is, by our faith, perfected in our worship of Him__24-7__not because of what He did but because of Who He is. Short of that will reveal the shallow redemption stories birthed in unbelief and victimization resulting in the believing it is about us because He loves us and requires nothing but our signature to a pledge upon reading a statement of faith and profession.

What a sad commentary from a people [leadership] who should know better.