Obama Admin Tells Court: Hobby Lobby Must Obey HHS Mandate

Crazy.

The administration’s arguments in this case are shocking. Here’s what they are saying: once someone starts a “secular” business, he categorically loses any right to run that business in accordance with his conscience.

This is exactly how I believe it will be for Churches soon that are non-profit 501c3. The government will ensure they control them and have them doing their bidding in many ways so they are not a threat to their agendas.

This is one reason why I have recommended ministries and churches not to have non-profit status. I do realize some larger ministries need to have this status because of the large amount of assets and donations but most local churches 50-100 people (which is the majority of churches) could easily run apart from this status.

The problem with this is that the churches would have to pay thousands of dollars in taxes; which in turn helps to fund the corruption in govt. Right now churches are protected by being nonprofit. If they forfeit this status, they will have even more reasons (according to the Obama administration) to comply with corrupt regulations.

Brother, thank you for your sharing of personal experience and convictions. I am not saying 100% it is a bad thing for all churches but when I have been looking into this and praying about it many years ago I felt the early church example in the Book of Acts they never sought to have status with the Government of their day and grew well and multiplied disciples.

I suppose one could exist under this situation as is currently happening in North America but I wonder how the picture would look if churches simply met in homes and had a meeting place (building) that they pay taxes on like all other individuals. I guess the problem happens when a church is large and has staff, a large building, other assets etc.

At least I believe definitely that small groups (house churches) could exist easily without ever having to have status with the government and it might be the church might have to come to that place to be able to preach all of God's truth.

Would be interested to hear your further thoughts as a pastor dear brother.

Wow ginnyrose where have they run afoul of ordinances for home bible studies? I have not heard of that. In the USA?

I do believe the only place in the future where we will be able to speak the word without compromise will be in house or underground churches. I see traces of it now when pastors try to be politically, ugh, correct. I think there is a lot of fear in the hearts of many pastors, or people in ministry about what the repercussions will be if they do speak out against the befriended sins of the land. And they are right to count the cost, because it could land us in jail in the future. Who do we obey, who do we please, we better make the right choices now when it is still easy to do so. We are establishing patterns that will carry us through the difficult times ahead.

Brother And Sister, yes I also believe that a time is coming soon that we will not be able to meet freely to preach the whole counsel of God. One of the burdens of my heart for a long time has been to encourage the body of Christ to prepare for such a time many years ago. There is still time to prepare.

God has laid it on my heart and other brothers to help compile a resource book to encourage the meeting together of saints: www.sermonindex.net/fellowships/ the free eBook will be published God willing in the next 1-3 months.

House Churches and Home Bible studies have come under structiny and there has been pressure against them. There are 10's of cases a year that I hear about alone from my small vantage point. I believe home meetings will be the only true way to meet at some point and it would be wise for any fellowship to start preparing in this way though still having larger assembly meetings.

So, if a church does not have a non-profit 501c3 status, this will then put them in a class like a business, right? If this is the case, then the gov will feel like they will have the right to come in and regulate your own methods of operations. This will mean you cannot speak out against sin, nor excommunicate unrepentant sinners. GinnyRose

Hi Sister GinnyRose. Although I have no direct knowledge of US Law it is my understanding that the principle benefit from a definition of “private house church” forming the basis for meeting together is to negate the public legal responsibilities that come with organizations with a “public interest” element such as a formal church organization which are open to the public, regardless of tax status. In short the house church would be “legal” in sentiment only. The term church would be informal and the legal basis for meeting would be Civil Law. Dropping the Tax Status benefits would remove the house church from the obvious restraints and dictates of State and Federal government but would not remove civil responsibilities at a county level. The house church would also not be seen as a business but a private initiative. This could be demonstrated by informal deed setting out the broad terms of meeting together without specifying a formal church title; in essence a private agreement. We are going to have to be smart in the future. It would be good to start thinking about it now.

The house church would also not be seen as a business but a private initiative. This could be demonstrated by informal deed setting out the broad terms of meeting together without specifying a formal church title; in essence a private agreement. We are going to have to be smart in the future. It would be good to start thinking about it now.

Yes brother, exactly. And the giving to the pastor would be literally cash in hand, giving from friends. To not have a set salary and health benefits would scare many pastors but to be a shepherd of the flock you will need to make steps to suffer to still feed the flock during times of great persecution.

I agree fully we need to start thinking of these things. The book we are writing on this www.sermonindex.net/fellowships/ "Principles for the Gathering of Believers" is to help saints consider how to meet during times of persecution and to learn from underground churches in china, north korea and iran.

I think we are going to have to change our thinking about the church and churches. We tend toward a church paradigm that looks a lot like a business. What is the first thing that comes to mind when you hear the word "church". We often think in terms of a building, programs, clergy, and congregations that "pay for" the benefit of the programs through tithe and offering. All too often, I am afraid, this even leads to a sense of consumerism among the clergy and the congregants in the sense that the first sees the second as their target market, and the second sees the first as the provider of the service that they enjoy. I think this paradigm will shift as persecution increases.

The church is the worldwide body of believers in Jesus Christ who have been born again by the Spirit of God. The local church is the local body of believers. All of the other things, buildings, programs, budgets, paid pastors/leaders/elders/teachers/etc., are simply ways of accomplishing goals that are convenient in our current society and social structure. However, if we are persecuted to the point of being driven underground, the church will still exist and will still thrive. We will still meet. We will still hold all things in common and give liberally to one anothers' needs and to generously honor those who labor among us in the word and act as servant leaders to the body.

House churches are good. Brick churches on the corner of 2nd and main are good. But both are just ways in which the church assembles. We are the church.

Very well said brother!

Maybe Hobby Lobby could hire all men to work in their stores.

I would like to know if the Obama Administration is forcing companies that are owned by Muslims to do the same thing. I never hear anything from the Muslim community being up in arms over any of these issues, it's seems to be all Christian related.

So then, how about charitable organizations? Some pay their employees, other operate mostly with donated labor...

Sister, agree with you exactly that small churches can go underground but larger churches or large non-profit organizations cannot they will have to dissolve at some point if persecution gets that serious. Or they can do things uncover ie have a secular outward look but in the end be sharing the Gospel.