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Are the people of Israel estranged brothers and sisters?

sermonindex Nov 22, 2012

I have been on different prayer calls that are acknowledging the Jews in Israel as estranged brothers and sisters. My understanding of the New Testament is a spiritual brother or sister in Christ is one who has a saving relationship with him.

But I am willing to listen. Are the unsaved Jews of Israel to be considered our brothers and sisters in tbe body if Christ? Note this question is asked in the context of unsaved Jews, not Messianic Jews. So again are the unsaved Jews in Israel and abroad, are they our estranged brethren in Christ?

Asked by Bearmaster.

S
savannah Nov 22, 2012


The title of this thread asks the question,

"Are the people of Israel estranged brothers and sisters?"

I answer,

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

"So again are the unsaved Jews in Israel and abroad, are they our estranged brethren in Christ?"

So again I answer,

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Answered by Savannah

"No wisdom, no understanding, no counsel can avail against the LORD." Proverbs 21:30

sermonindex Nov 22, 2012

Are the unsaved Jews of Israel to be considered our brothers and sisters in tbe body if Christ?
As fellow human beings is concerned we are certainly brothers and sisters, but as in Christ, no.

The unbelieving Jew is much as lost as the unbelieving Gentile.

The problem lies in our affections towards the ancient name called Israel, there is a deep respect for the nation of Israel and yet they hate our Lord Jesus Christ. So how can they be in Christ if they do not believe? How can they be in Him when they do not have His Spirit?

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

U
UntoBabes Nov 22, 2012


Collectively yes, individually no.

The key word here is enstranged. It excludes some aspects in what it includes. They are brothers and sisters when they cease to be enstranged.

sermonindex Nov 22, 2012

They become our brothers and sisters when they accept Christ as their Messiah. Just like everyone else. Until then they're lost.

However, do not mistake this to be the negation of God's prophetic purpose for Israel as a nation and His promises He made specifically for/to them.

"For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?"

To the Jew first, then to the Gentile.

sermonindex Nov 22, 2012

The problem lies in our affections towards the ancient name called Israel, there is a deep respect for the nation of Israel and yet they hate our Lord Jesus Christ. So how can they be in Christ if they do not believe? How can they be in Him when they do not have His Spirit?

Dear Brothers And Sisters,

I believe we need to be careful as those who are "gentiles" that we did not receive the commandments and law, Israel did. We did not receive the law "through angels" Israel did. We did not have God speak to prophets and have a temple in our countries, only Israel did. They were given special revelation of God so that others could see it.

But the disobedience of Israel in rejecting Jesus Christ is that the light of this Gospel would come to the rest of the world. God planned it this way. And for it to come to the gentiles means one day it will provoke Israel to come back to God. And such will be a glorious day, the scriptures say it will be "life from the dead".

We are 2000 years of God's redemption plan and he worked this redemption 4000 years earlier through Adam, Noah and all the patriachs of Israel. We must be very careful to have a humble attitude the Scripture warns us, because we are just engrafted into the promises that were intially given to Israel and are "still theirs".

So no unbelieving Jewish people are not brothers and sisters, but the "people of Israel" are special because they will come back to God after the "fulness of the gentiles are done" therefore we must read Romans chapters 9 to 11 very carefully and slowly. We must not be haughty thinking we are better because we see physical Israel that has forsoken God to the point of utter self-dependence.

Yet they will come back to God again through tragedy and the glorious Gospel will be accepted by many Jewish people. God's love is for everyone but the scripture says to the Jew First then the gentile (Romans 1-3). May we pray for the Jewish people to come back to God which is the end-times plan of Jesus Christ.

If we are in Jesus Christ we will be concerned about this plan and share God's heart for all peoples (nations) especially the people of Israel because from them the messiah came and will come again to them.

S
savannah Nov 22, 2012


"Therefore, having put aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisies and envies and all slanders, as newborn babies long for the spiritual, pure milk, so that you shall grow by it, if indeed you tasted [fig., experienced] that the Lord is gracious. To whom having approached as to a living stone, on the one hand having been rejected by people, on the other hand chosen [and] precious before God,
and you yourselves, as living stones, are being built up into a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
For this reason, it is contained in the Scripture, "Look! I lay in Zion a stone, a cornerstone, chosen, precious, and the one believing on Him shall by no means be put to shame [or, be disappointed]." [Isa 28:16] Therefore, the honor is to you, the ones believing. But to the ones disobeying [or, refusing to believe], "The stone which the builders rejected, this [One] became the head of the corner [or, the chief cornerstone]" [Psalm 118:22] and "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offence," who stumble at the word, refusing to believe, to which also they were appointed. [Isaiah 8:14]
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, in order that you shall proclaim the excellencies of the One having called you out of darkness into His marvelous light, [Exod 9:16; Isaiah 43:20] who at one time were not a people, but now are the people of God; the ones not having found mercy, but now having found mercy. 1 Peter 2:1-10

Note above all the titles which formerly belonged to the circumcised people known as the Jews or Israelites are given to those in Christ or Christians. And this not by accident as we read our LORD'S words,

Hear another parable: There was a certain man, a house master, who planted a vineyard and placed a hedge around it; and he dug a winepress in it, and built a tower. And he rented it to vinedressers and left the country. [Isaiah 5:1,2] And when the season of the fruits came, he sent his slaves to the vinedressers to receive his fruits. And the vinedressers, taking his slaves, they beat this one, and they killed one, and they stoned another. Again he sent other slaves, more than the first. And they did the same to them. And at last he sent his son to them, saying, They will respect my son. But seeing the son, the vinedressers said among themselves, This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and possess his inheritance. And taking him, they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore, when the lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers? They said to Him, Evil men! He will miserably destroy them, and he will rent out the vineyard to other vinedressers who will give to him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus said to them, Did you never read in the Scriptures, "A Stone which the builders rejected, this One became the Head of the Corner? This was from the Lord, and it is a wonder in our eyes?" [Psalm 118:22,23]
Because of this I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you, and it will be given to a nation producing the fruits of it. Matthew 21:33-43

He says, "Because of this I say to you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you and it will be given to a nation producing the fruits of it.", which means that 'Holy Nation' spoken of by Peter in the above verses, which has been born of God in Christ consisting of all those believing ones ("that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eternal." (John 3:15,16).

There are not two peoples of God but one,this is why we read also,

"Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh - who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -" At that time you were apart from Christ, foreigners from the Commonwealth of Israel, with no share by birth in the Covenants which are based on the Promises, and you had no hope and no God, in all the world. Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ." For He is our peace, He making us both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it."
And coming, He proclaimed "peace to you, the ones afar off, and to the ones near." For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Then, therefore, ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being chief corner-stone, in whom all the building fitly framed together doth increase to an holy temple in the Lord, in whom also ye are builded together, for a habitation of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:11-22

And again we read,

"For Moses truly said to the fathers, A Prophet will the Lord your God raise up to you, of your brethren, like me; him shall ye hear in all things, whatever he shall say to you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul who will not hear that Prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. And all the prophets also from Samuel, and those that follow, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed." Acts 3;22-25

And finally,

"For the promise that he should be the heir of the world was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of no effect. Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all; (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations) before him whom he believed, even God, who reviveth the dead, and calleth those things which are not, as though they were. Who against hope believed with hope, that he should become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be." Romans 4:13-18

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor. 15:50

Do you not yet understand?

"From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." 2 Cor. 5:16,17

STOP focusing on flesh and blood! God doesn't!

"Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." Romans 8:8,9

"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs; heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together." Romans 8:16,17

Amen and Amen.

C
Croref Nov 22, 2012

In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile!

Why not consider and remember that Jesus was a JEW and in Him is the Gentile made a complete Jew and the Jew is made a completed Jew. Does not the "grafting in" process work in both directions to produce ONE NEW MAN__ Both in Christ??

__And as a nation will not that ONE NEW MAN reside IN Christ __Who was a JEW? What was the Promise to Abraham AND his seed? Who are his seed if not ALL who come to Christ?

I
InTheLight Nov 22, 2012

This thread is guaranteed to bring strife and division, be very careful. Remember, the root bears you...

But if some of the branches of the tree have been broken off, while you, like shoots of wild-olive, have been grafted in, and don't share like a natural branch the rich nourishment of the root, don't let yourself feel superior to those former branches. (If you feel inclined that way, remind yourself that you do not support the root, the root supports you.) You may make the natural retort, "But the branches were broken off to make room for my grafting!" It wasn't quite like that. They lost their position because they failed to believe; you only maintain yours because you do believe. The situation does not call for conceit but for a certain wholesome fear. If God removed the natural branches for a good reason, take care that you don't give him the same reason for removing you.

You must try to appreciate both the kindness and the strict justice of God. Those who fell experienced his justice, while you are experiencing his kindness, and will continue to do so as long as you do not abuse that kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off from the tree. And as for the fallen branches, unless they are obstinate in their unbelief, they will be grafted in again. Such a restoration is by no means beyond the power of God. And, in any case, if you who were, so to speak, cuttings from a wild-olive, were grafted in, is it not a far simpler matter for the natural branches to be grafted back onto the parent stem?

[Romans 11:17-24 Phillips]

In Christ,

Ron

C
Croref Nov 22, 2012


Re: This thread is guaranteed to bring strife and division, be very careful. Remember, the root bears you...

I don't agree. I believe it is healthy to seek understanding in this matter.

Why assume that is what's going on here when privilege and promise can be seen to be the opposite result??

L
lylewise Nov 22, 2012

Might we consider the audience in Rome as being of a different makeup from the one in Jerusalem. That is in branch but not in root. The words regarding pride in grafting of the wild branch would have no application to The believers in Israel other than the reminder of the grace of God toward the Gentiles, which in itself was something they were in awe of, being both participant and spectator, to His overwhelming Grace through His Son our Lord and Savior.

A very healthy discussion and could not be more relevant in this day.

sermonindex Nov 22, 2012

I agree with Lylewisr that this.thread could be a healtdy discussion. It was nit open with thr intention to promote contoversy. But to get some honest feedback. There are some believers who regard.the Jewish people as estranged brethren. Though these Jews gave never expressed belief in Jesus. There are certain well known TV evangelist, one in Texas, who say that Jews do not need to be evangeluzed. His contention seems to be they do not need to know Jesus. Also some regard tbe Jews as already going through the holocaust. They gave suffered. God will save the
So do the Jews need Jesus as their Savior to be saved? I mean do they need Jesus for salvation in this day. Had God given Israel special grace? Is it the rest of the world needs Jesus and Israel does not?

Bearmaster.

U
UntoBabes Nov 22, 2012

quote,
"So do the Jews need Jesus as their Savior to be saved?"

Absolutlely Yes,

Jews need Jesus for salvation just like anybody else for there is no other name under heaven.

Furthermore, jews need Jesus for salvation more than anybody else for He is their Messiah and only Savior.

And here is the thing: God has given a promise that they will find Jesus. God has not given this promise to any other people. Although all people "MAY" find Jesus, the Jews "WILL" find Him.

sermonindex Nov 22, 2012

There are certain well known TV evangelist, one in Texas, who say that Jews do not need to be evangeluzed.

Mouthpieces of Satan. How is it that the Jews who rejected Christ were condemned for rejecting Him in the first century, yet now they're accepted for their rejection of Him in the 21st?

Only the devil would not want the Jews to find their Messiah.

Just look at the section that InTheLight posted. The Lord said that anyone who rejected the Prophet that was like Moses (Christ) He would require it (the full obedience to the Law) of him. The Law cannot be kept since 70 AD. There is no temple, and there is no high priest. If the natural branch does not accept the one who came as their eternal high priest, and as their perfect Passover lamb, the Lord will require of them something that is beyond their ability to keep (the Law).

There is salvation by no other name.

sermonindex Nov 22, 2012

If we are in Jesus Christ we will be concerned about this plan and share God's heart for all peoples (nations) especially the people of Israel because from them the messiah came and will come again to them.
I am in Christ and I can assure you brother, I have no such concerns for this plan because I do not see it in the scriptures as going to take place at all in our future. From them certainly the Messiah came, but by them they crucified Him. The Jewish leaders, Herod, all knew who Christ was, from His birth to His adult life they sought ways to frame Him and kill Him.

Matthew 22:7 But when the King(God) heard thereof, He was wroth: and He sent forth His armies(using Rome), and destroyed those murderers(Jews), and burned up their city(Jerusalem).

Matthew 22:8 Then saith He(God) to his servants(preachers), The wedding is ready(Promise of the Holy Ghost), but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Matthew 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways(world), and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage(tell them about Jesus).

If you can receive it brother, and I say this with all kindness, Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek".

To insert the word "Special" shows partiality and is someone else's ideas, not God.

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

To the Jew first only because the promises were made to them. But if they reject it, than it's passed unto the "whomsoever will".

God will have respect of persons if they are doing His will or if one is calling upon Him. There are several references of that Gen4:4, Ex2:25, Lev26:3-9 just to name a few.

To speak this way will be looked at as Anti-Semitic and I am aware of that, but I am not at all. I see the Jews as I would see a regular person on the street. I see the Church as thee Special people on the face of the earth that has in it all peoples that have received Christ as their Messiah, whether they be Jew or Gentile, Bond or Free, for we are all one in Christ Jesus.

Now, if they believe, THEN and only then are they true Jews. But outside of Christ, God sees no difference between a Jew or a Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

sermonindex Nov 23, 2012

So do the Jews need Jesus as their Savior to be saved? I mean do they need Jesus for salvation in this day. Had God given Israel special grace? Is it the rest of the world needs Jesus and Israel does not?
God has been most gracious to the children of Israel.

You have asked a very good question and I must say that though no one will admit it, but if most believers believe that Israel is special before God, they will have a hard time admitting that any of them are lost.

When there is an affection for a person and they die without knowing the Lord, as much as we loved that person, it will be difficult to believe that they went to hell. Truth can be staring at us in the face but if the affection is greater for that person, we'd settle for the lie instead. If we were told that we were accepting the lie, we'd immediately reject and deny it, but the heart will reveal the truth through the mouth by saying, "well I believe they are saved". And this will come from honest believers who stand for the truth of Gods word daily.

This is the same for Israel. Believers have such a respect, such a reverence for these people that they literally do not see them as doing any wrong because they believe that these people are God's chosen people. There is an affection there. Even to the place for John H**** to admit that Jews do not need to be saved.

This is a deception and it will be revealed to the Church as such in the years ahead, as God reveals to His Church the conspiracy that the world has conspired against us. Right now we are slumbering and when we slumber we are not aware of what is going on around us, how can we, we are sleeping. But when we awaken we will shake ourselves of everything that has taken up lodging within us and cast it off like an old garment.

Right now we are getting bits and pieces, here a little, there a little of the divine precepts of God that have been lost by the neglect of our forefathers and He is showing us what He desires to do through His body in the last days of this current age.

Regarding a healthy discussion, when a man gets angry when someone rebuts him, that is a good indication right there to check out why your getting angry. Even those of us who want truth, truth is hardly embraced easily. When a truth comes forth, it's almost immediately cast down. But a person may pick it up again and consider what was said and if they think long enough on it a peace will come over them and they repent for believing how they used to believe. If our anger is immediate, it usually is pride rearing it's ugly head because truth is present.

sermonindex Nov 23, 2012

I am in Christ and I can assure you brother, I have no such concerns for this plan because I do not see it in the scriptures as going to take place at all in our future.

Historically, when did all of Zechariah 14 take place? Or all of 13? Or all of 12?

If you could include the dates with the citations as well please. I'm particularly interested in when the Mount of Olives was split in half, or all the idols names were cut off and forgotten.

After that I've got plenty of other Scriptures that I'd love to see the historical fulfillment of as well. Let's just use these three chapters for starters though.

sermonindex Nov 23, 2012

Historically, when did all of Zechariah 14 take place? Or all of 13? Or all of 12?
Is this a question of desire to know, or will I just be laying down foundations for amusements? Please be honest. I hate to waste time if the ears have been predetermined to be shut.

Foundations like these are not quick answers and like all studies it will require time, exhausted research on the part of the person who is teaching and on the part of the person who is seeking knowledge.

I've read your understandings of what will take place in the future and I highly doubt that your interested in knowing of any past fulfillments as I have also engaged in conversations before and your quite sure of what you believe and anything that falls short of that will not be tolerated and please understand, I understand that and respect that.

Thanks for the question but I am going to refrain as Admin Greg doesn't believe in a past fulfillment and I do not want to appear as someone pushing against him on his website or as one having an agenda, I like to continue on fellowshipping with everyone on a common ground and not go loopy into the controversial, for we both know that both our positions are controversial. I guess that is why some have blogs.

C
Croref Nov 23, 2012

by EverestoSama on 2012/11/23 4:52:14

I am in Christ and I can assure you brother, I have no such concerns for this plan because I do not see it in the scriptures as going to take place at all in our future.

Historically, when did all of Zechariah 14 take place? Or all of 13? Or all of 12?

If you could include the dates with the citations as well please. I'm particularly interested in when the Mount of Olives was split in half, or all the idols names were cut off and forgotten.

After that I've got plenty of other Scriptures that I'd love to see the historical fulfillment of as well. Let's just use these three chapters for starters though.


Likewise, Bro. I also feel much the same concerning Rev.12&13 and 17&18. Time frames and locations being the crucial element in those passages must be strongly considered for good understanding of them to happen.

sermonindex Nov 23, 2012

Foundations like these are not quick answers and like all studies it will require time, exhausted research on the part of the person who is teaching and on the part of the person who is seeking knowledge.

To make such bold statements such as:

I am in Christ and I can assure you brother, I have no such concerns for this plan because I do not see it in the scriptures as going to take place at all in our future.

One might think that you would base your opinion off of a little historical fact in relation to the Scriptures, and not have to study something out if you can make such confident assertions towards others "in Christ", and that you might just have a little knowledge in relation to the question off hand. Unless of course you're saying that you've already chosen to believe something without first checking your facts, and you either ignore or spiritualize away everything that Pretterism will not give a coherent answer for.

My question was simple. If you've been convinced by Scripture that this is not going to be fulfilled in the future, than I'd assume you'd at least have an inkling of when events from these few chapters were fulfilled.

Then again, I think I remember you saying in another thread that you had no problem with prophets of the Old Testament not being 100% accurate with their prophecies.

And this is not an issue of there being only one fulfillment either. I have no problem with something being fulfilled in the past and being recapitulated in it's ultimate fulfillment in the future (which is the Hebrew understanding of prophecy anyway). This is the case with the book of Revelation. The whole book is a picture of Old Testament prophecy being replayed in it's completeness. However, there have been some instances with, as of yet, no fulfillment historically.

(I also don't think Greg has a problem with "past fulfillment" as he has sermons on SI about Midrash; http://media.sermonindex.net/12/SID12037.mp3
I would guess he just has a problem with past fulfillment being taught as the only fulfillment, and that everything is already done and fulfilled).

Either the prophets missed, or the fulfillment is yet to happen in it's fullness. I choose the latter.

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