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eternal salvation, pre trib and the like

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PTywama3 Mar 2, 2005

In the relatively recent past, I completed a Descipleship Training School with Youth With a Mission, and had been attending a non-denominal church with a definite pentacostal bent.My background lies heavily with the North-American Baptist, however, which is a solid foundation I cannot ignore.With all that prep, my question comes down to this: having been introduced to different viewpoints, I am having a hard time accepting some particular doctrines at face value as I once did. Namely salvation as it applies to us living on earth being irrevokable (opposition being primarily focused on Lordship), pre-tribulation (specifically how it affects theology), and pre-millenial viewpoints. The premillenial return is something I'm not horribly familiar with, and would like a more in-depth study.Would anyone be willing to lay out some fairly heavy resources that get in-depth on these particular concepts? I'm considering schools at the moment, and I don't want to discount so many Baptist schools based on these hinging points - I've got access to a multitude of human resources, too, but am limited by time.I would like to draw my own conclusions as was suggested by the appraisal of the Bereans (Acts 17:11) before submitting to an authority for multiple years that I'm not sure I agree with. I guess this means that I'm open for anything, explanations of comparative doctrines from other denominations not withheald. What I'm really looking for is the why, dynamic reasoning. My basic rundown has gone through a lot of reading, and I haven't been able to rectify sheer scripture with all of these particular conclusions.With all that being said (and a rather hefty bill), a place to start would be grand.Thanks for your time,God bless,David

sermonindex Mar 2, 2005

With all that being said (and a rather hefty bill), a place to start would be grand.Hi Brother David, I am going to Calvary Chapel Bible School www.calvarychapel.com and its been a total blessing being involved with this movement. Its an non-denominational movement that has really grown and is really based firmly in the scriptures. For topics such as eternal security and also the whole calvinism/arminism debate they find a very simple scriptural middle ground that I really feel honours God. I would encourage you to read through some of the Calvary Chapel Distinctives book that outlines their simple beliefs. (the only hang up thus far I believe is the quite firm belief in the pri-tribulation rapture and the 1000 millineum reign of Christ on this earth.) But if you believe otherwise it should not hinder you from becoming part of this movement or going to its school.Calvary Chapel Distinctives by Chuck Smith

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Bomar Mar 3, 2005

Here is an article I put up on my website. Doing a lot of street preaching and witnessing, you run into droves of people who don't live for the Lord, yet put all their eggs in the OSAS (once saved always saved) basket.------------------------------------------------Are Backsliders Saved?I often run into "backsliders" who tried Christianity for a season, but now are drunks, blasphemers, liars, sexually immoral, greedy, and they are full of lust (which Jesus said is adultery in the heart), hatred, selfish ambition, and scripture clearly says they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven (1 Cor 6:9, Gal 5:19-20, Rev. 21:8) . Yet, they are completely confident that if they die they will go to heaven because one day when they were 6, they asked Jesus into their heart. It looks like they were told once they are saved, they can never... turn from his righteous ways, commit iniquity, and die (Ezekiel 18:24, 26) fall away (Mt 11:6; Mk 14:27,29) wander away (Mt 18:12,13) turn away from the faith (Mt 24:10) stop believing and fall away in time of testing (Lk 8:13) cut in two and assigned a portion with the unbelievers (Luke 12:46) lose your saltiness and be thrown out (Lk 14:34,35) turn back and no longer follow Jesus (Jn 6:66) be a branch that is cast out as withered, and thrown in the fire and burned (Jn 15:6) go astray (Jn 16:1) cease to continue in His goodness, and be cut off (Rom 11:22) be disqualified (1 Cor 9:27) believe in vain (1 Cor 15:2) fall away from grace (Gal 5:4) be part of the falling away (2 Thes 2:3) wander away from a pure heart, a good conscience and a sincere faith and turn to meaningless talk (1 Tim 1:5,6) have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim 1:19) be puffed up with pride and suffer the same condemnation as the devil (1 Tim 3:6) have condemnation because they cast off their first faith (1 Tim 5:12) turn away to follow Satan (1 Tim 5:15) depart from the faith (1 Tim 4:1) wander away from the faith (1 Tim 6:10,21) wander away from the truth and destroy the faith of others (2 Tim 2:18) turn your ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths (2 Tim 4:4) drift away (Heb 2:1) acquire a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God (Heb 3:12) come short of entering His rest (Heb 4:1) fall according to disobedience (Hewb 4:11) fall away to the point where you can't be renewed to repentance (Heb 6:6) sin wilfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth, and there be no sacrifice for sins left, and we come under a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the advesaries of God (Heb 10:26-27) fall short of the grace of God, and many become defiled from it (Heb 12:15) turn away from him who warns us from heaven (Heb 12:25) be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings (Heb 13:9) be judged (Jam 5:9) wander from the truth, and need his soul saved from death (Jam 5:19) stuumble [from your calling and election] (2 Pet 1:10) leave the straight way and follow the way of Balaam (2 Pet 2:15) again be entangled in [the pollutions of the world], and the end result is so bad that it would be better for you to never have known the way of righteousness, than to turn from it (2 Peter 2:20-21) be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position (2 Pet 3:17) have their lampstand removed from its place (Rev 2:5) not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Rev 2:10,11) have their name blotted out of the Book of Life (Rev 3:5) become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Rev 3:15,16) have God take away your share in the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev 22:19) have their part from the Book of Life, the holy city, and the things written in the book taken away (Rev 22:18)The doctrine that we can "come to Jesus" and then do whatever we want for the rest of our lives, and maintain righteousness, is a lie. We are not saved by works, but our righteousness by faith will manifest itself in good works (James 2:14-26). People need to be warned about the awful consequences of walking away from the Lord, and be shown that they need to repent of their iniquity. Scripture obviously (the ones above) teach about people falling away. Some people will argue that they lost their salvation, and others will argue that they were not saved in the first place. Regardless, the means of God's redemption will be far less important on judgement day than the ends. Hell is hell, and you don't want to be there one way or the other. Please, when instructing sinners, tell them they must repent of their sins (forever) and submit to Jesus as Lord (forever).

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Nasher Mar 3, 2005

The way I see OSAS (if you want to call it that) is this:A person who is submitting to the Lord Jesus Christ is "saved", a person who is not, is not.People may like to point back to a time when they did this or said that but what really matters is "are they walking with God now"

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PTywama3 Mar 3, 2005

Thanks for the imput, all.Hebrew concepts and words weren't separate in action and thought, but often seemed to encompass both. Believe is more readily by life as far as I understand it. Thanks for the illustration, Mr. Nash, I very much agree with it. :-)Bomar, that article is quite decent, I'll definitely have to add it to my list of study topics for the near future.And Brother Gordon, as far as Calvary Chapel is concerned, I shall definitely take a look. :-)

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