Current 'Grace' teaching that is emerging - some concerns!

I have been a little disturbed at the appearence of new grace message that i see appearing in Asia and Australia (and of course it is seen in the US as well). It is all well and good and appears in many places to be biblical and inspires much freedom from legalistic religion.I will name names so that you may understand the context of this messgae. Bob George, Andrew Womack, Joseph Prince (Singapore) , Dr James B Richards and others have a particular slant on grace that appears biblical yet...That is how i would describe it. 'It appears biblical yet...' Now i know Spurgeon was a preacher of grace, yet he also did not water down sin, repentance, revival, the cross, sacrifice etcThe real concern I see is a passivity it tends to breed concerning Christian disciplines. I had one brother tell me some time ago that he was debating in his cell group over whether 'believing is a work'. Now this is dangerous ground. Anyone who comes and preaches a strong message of holiness, a call to sacrifice for the gospel, a call to radical discipleship, a call to urgent prayer or revival - would just tend to be preaching a works based Christianity that grace has done away with. I am not saying that these men above teach that or say that but there seems to be a silent implication that that could be so. It is the unwritten theology and the implications of this unwritten theology of silence that disturbs me. For example one church I know will not call people to prayer - that is works. There are no prayer meetings. To call believers to fervant prayer seems to invite the acusation of 'you are into works based righteousness; that is law and legalistic...' Does anyone see a danger here!Preachings that have so impacted my life (Wilkerson, Conlon, Ravenhill etal) would be considered far to works orientated and not in tune with the current love-grace trip. As I said before this new emphasis does not see God as angry at sin, bringing judgment etc etc. Repentence and weeping over sin and having anguish of heart seem to find little place. The call to authentic revival seems to have little place. When they speak of revival there is very little preaching against sin or the bringing of a corrective word. This trend disturbs me.Again i wasnt to say that there is much good and i have been blessed with many messages (especially Joseph Prince in Singapore) however I am concerned at what is not being said, what is being left out, what is missing in much of this type of 'grace' preaching. I would value some dialogue and comment on this and have you encountered anything like this. :-(

It seems that grace is being looked at the wrong way. Any actions on your part does not score grace points. Any works that you do are something you get to do because of grace. You should be joyful that you have the privilege to do things. You have the privilege to pray and know God hears you, you have the privilege to give your money to the Gospel, you have the privilege to witness, go to fellowship etc.Just because you have those privileges doesn't mean that the flesh will always want to do them and it takes discipline and the right focus.To say that those things are works towards you grace or salvation so you don't have to do them sounds like laziness.

"Thou O'Lord has exalted thy word above thy name". The Grace of God simply is that which is given to us freely inorder that we may do his word. I believe with you that it seems that the church has gone into ... like a sleeping mode .Rember- Jesus said when he returns will he find faith on earth?That's a scarey statement.What concerns me is the lack of teaching what we have in the local churches on the teachings of Jesus Christ recorded for us in the gospels.You very seldom hear the message of the cross let alone the plain teachings of Jesus. Discipleship has been replaced by programs like Monday nite football gettogethers and the cross has been replaced a gospel of ease.Lord have mercy!

I agree - there is a total lack of preaching on the glory of Christ and His glorious Cross. The saints are starving and so much candy, cuteness and cleverness has seemed to replace the Cross, Sacrifice, Eternity, Heaven and Hell. Lord send us true prophets again that will awaken the sleeping giant!

I spent close to about one year underneath one of the teachers you mentioned above...I ate up all of the teaching I could find - tapes, cd's, mp3's, and even a couple conferences close by. At the time, I heard it all and though "Man, this is great! Why hasn't everyone else figured this out!" But, now that the Lord has brought me out of that, I see some INCREDIBLY dangerous things about the whole message:1. God will do everything you can find a couple scriptures about, regardless of how you're living. If you sin, that's bad b/c it gives Satan access to you, but it doesn't really stop God 2. Mocking great men of faith from the past for how much they prayed, saying they could have gotten more done if they would have just preached more - the thought here was that God wants people to be saved more than we do, so why should we waste time praying to Him about it? Just obey His word....When I came out of that teaching, I had never really prayed - and I would be considered a more "exemplary disciple" from the circle I was in. Of course, holiness was a joke...just what Christ imputes to us, and we're in like flint! I thank God for Ray Comfort...

Bomar wrote:the thought here was that God wants people to be saved more than we do, so why should we waste time praying to Him about it? Just obey His word.... Just a tiny comment, prayer more than anything changes the man praying, not so much moves Gods hand. His will is his will and it will come to pass with or without my prayer, byt can you imagine witnessing without our hearts being set on fire in the presence of him who came to seek and save the lost. We would be witnessing from our own source, which can no more raise a dead man, than its possible to make lead float.Seeking the height, depth and width in Him,

Although Bonar might well be quoted rightly I think that perhaps this may be taken a little out of the context of his life. Especially when you read in His diaries things like, 'I woke at 6 this morning to seek the lover of my soul.' Clearly a man of prayer.Also the notion that whatever will be will be (His will is his will and it will come to pass with or without my prayer) is that in your opinion Christian? Or is it fataliam, which is more Islamic? After all we are told on good authority I would say that we have not because we ask not. This discussion started over a concern for an unwritten theology of silence concerning grace. I was wondering if anyone would like to suggest a meaning for grace?Every blessingKenny

kennyross wrote:Although Bonar might well be quoted rightly I think that perhaps this may be taken a little out of the context of his life. huh?!:-? Also the notion that whatever will be will be (His will is his will and it will come to pass with or without my prayer) is that in your opinion Christian? Or is it fataliam, which is more Islamic? After all we are told on good authority I would say that we have not because we ask not.Look at it this way. Is the bible the unfailing word of God? YesAre all the scriptures going to be fulfilled? YesDoes it need my prayers to fulfill them? No That is what I mean by his will...His Word.I side note, those are the only prayers we can pray with hundred percent conviction, we know what he wants.Welcome to SI, you'll find lots of interesting people here from very different places, but mostly all with a heart for Jesus. Check out the sermons, which I am sure you have. As you can see a certain mister Reidhead has been at the top of the charts for about 100+weeks, and doesn't look like been dethroned for sometime. Why don't you introduce yourself to us all. Stick around.

Is the bible the unfailing word of God? YesAre all the scriptures going to be fulfilled? YesDoes it need my prayers to fulfill them? No I disagree to some extent with your last comment.Let me ask you 2 questions:Was John the Baptist's birth predicted in the scriptures?Did it need Zacharias' prayer to be fulfilled?

Have not had time to read full discussion but just to throw in that Abraham discussed (prayed?) with God about Sodom and bargained for mercy for them and it appears God was open to listening!Paul

I was wondering if anyone would like to suggest a meaning for grace?Mercy is when we don't get what we deserve.Grace is when we do get what we could never deserve.but grace is not only God's attitude towards us but His enabling power.

PaulusI think we may be misunderstanding the nature of Abraham's 'discussion'. The relationship between God and Abraham could never have degenerated into the bargaining of the bazaar. You'll find some of my thoughts here.

One may think that Abraham's discourse with God failed in the end, for Sodom was destroyed, but not so! My favorite part of this story is when Abraham's prayer (which was for Lot) is granted, and God is merciful to Lot, saving him even though he is hesitant. God literally grabs him by the arm and pulls him out of there without Lot's cooperation.Genesis 19:16 - "When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the LORD was merciful to them."God granted Abraham's prayer. The power of prayer.In Christ,-Eli

Nasher wrote:Was John the Baptist's birth predicted in the scriptures?YesDid it need Zacharias' prayer to be fulfilled?NoNice and easy those two, how did I do. :smart:

philologos wrote:but grace is not only God's attitude towards us but His enabling power.I think in Ephesians it talks about accessing this grace by faith. Can you imagine if we just had enough faith to believe that his awesome grace is available to us? I remember listening to a compilation called Selah. One part goes ' we would hardly have stepped out of time into eternity and gazed upon enternity and said 'My God look at all the riches there are in Christ Jesus, and I've come to the judgement seat a pauper'.

Grace is the power of God to do His Word ,it's free and we don't deserve it. Prayer in the whole scope of things won't change God's ultimate time table on major events like the second coming of Christ ,or the appearing of the anti-christ ect....BUT we all live in a world where our prayers do matter!There is nothing of any significance that ever happens without prayer.Jesus rose early in the morning to pray and He said He was the way, good place to start copying him is in our prayer life. Show me a man or woman with great word knowledge and no prayer life and I'll show you a man or woman who neither knows God nor His Word, a true pharisee. The man or woman of prayer not only has power with God but makes hell itself tremble!

*Edit: Eh, rather than being antagonistic, I'll sum up my reply to Zeke0.God may not need our help, but indeed we are supposed to try.Aside from that - doesn't grace go hand in hand with mercy? AKA the way to step beyond? Mercy being God's willingness to forgive us (one aspect, as I understand it.) I haven't seen that word used on this particular thread, and I've always been taught that the two are linked.

Nice and easy those two, how did I do.Hi ZekeoI would say 50% hit rate. I don't want to rationalise prayer or give the impressions that I have all the answers, but there are some things that God will only do in the ways He has specified. The example I usually quote is the tethered ass of which Jesus said "I have need of him". Zechariah had spoken the word of God that this must be Christ's means of entry into Jerusalem, so consequently "The Lord hath need..." If He has determinded to do certain things in certain ways He will not do them in another. And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it. Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock. As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD. (Eze 36:35-38 KJV)This is God stating the necessary conditions for His will to be accomplished. Without the fulfilment of the conditions there can be no fulfillment of the prophecy.God hardly gives His Spirit even to those whom He has established in grace, if they do not pray for it on all occasions, not only once, but many times. 'God does nothing but in answer to prayer; and even they who have been converted to God, without praying for it themselves (which is exceeding rare), were not without the prayers of others. Every new victory which a soul gains is the effect of a new prayer. Wesley: Plain Account of Christian Perfection.

philologos wrote:This is God stating the necessary conditions for His will to be accomplished. Without the fulfilment of the conditions there can be no fulfillment of the prophecy.I think this is again a case where we are looking at the same thing from different angles.Getting back to John the Baptist and Zacharia. It was GOds will to send a Elijah type restorer, if my scriptural uasage is not correct forgive me. That is a given. The next phase then is who will fulfill this scripture, well if Zacharia was not available he would have found somoeone else to fulfill his plan. My understanding on this is based on the premises that this world will end and Jesus will be crowned king of all. Thats a given, it will happen. God will find someone somewhere whose heart is committed to him, to meet and fulfill his requirements.I am not saying that our prayers are not vital in fact without them there are allots of things that wouldn't happen. That reminds me of something else, your quote from Mr Wesley is absolutley true in regards to our personal pilgrimage. For Gods will in my life to be outworked I must pray and seek his face.So to sum up, if Zacharia hadn't of prayed and put himself in a position to hear God, God would have found someone else, maybe his cousin or something. Its the same with the donkey, GOd had something to accomplish and that donkey was at the right place at the right time to be used by the master. Why that donkey, the donkey was in a position to be used by him. And that is the same with us, God doesn't need us, he wants to fullfill his will, and if we put ourselves in position to be used, he will use us.I hope that this makes sense as to what I am saying.

I am not saying that our prayers are not vital in fact without them there are allots of things that wouldn't happen. That reminds me of something else, your quote from Mr Wesley is absolutley true in regards to our personal pilgrimage. For Gods will in my life to be outworked I must pray and seek his face.I think you are right to make the distinction.Getting back to John the Baptist and Zacharia. It was GOds will to send a Elijah type restorer, if my scriptural uasage is not correct forgive me. That is a given. The next phase then is who will fulfill this scripture, well if Zacharia was not available he would have found somoeone else to fulfill his plan.I wonder... if somethings did not happen because God found no one to stand in the gap? This is not a stick to beat ourselves over the head with... if I had prayed more... but just a thought. I think of such verses as 'he could do no mighty work there' (Mark 6:5) seems to imply that He could not do what He would have done as a result of the conditions not being what He needed.I was meditating on this in the last Abraham devotional. In one sense the whole of the Bible after Genesis 24 was dependent upon Rebekah saying 'yes'. I know it is mind blowing, and God might have taken a different route, but on the face of it without Rebekah's consent the royal route of the Seed would have stopped with Isaac. I think we are nothing and nobodies but we are extremley significant nothings and nobodies. :-D The thing about the donkey is that categoric statement "the Lord hath need...". Certainly this is condescension but in an extraordinary way, for certain purposes, God has made Himself dependent upon us donkies!