A Band of Brothers... or a Banning of Brothers??

I have been reading through the drama of the past week with sadness in my heart. It brought to mind something else that has been discussed at length on SermonIndex -- the persecuted Church.

If we were persecuted as early believers were persecuted, would we fret over such things to the degree that we often do?

Doctrines.
Sectarian dogma.
Traditions of men.

Now, to be clear, there are issues -- doctrinal issues -- that I think are exceedingly clear from the Word of God and can be universally proclaimed. We can declare with boldness things that are "essential." We can even point to doctrinal or sectarian systems that are flawed because of those "essentials" and explain the reasons why.

We can point out the flaws of the Roman-pagan traditions. We can contrast the "added things" and "missing parts" of that religious system with the purity of the Word of God. However, we can cross the line when we deal with those who might be ignorant of such things.

The thing that is shared by all believers is that they hunger to know the Lord. There is a stirring in the heart that longs to know the one true Living God. When that stirring takes place in our hearts, we are all at different places in our lives. I felt that hunger for God while I was an agnostic honor student in high school. Others who feel that stirring may have been raised in church "going through the motions."

The question is whether or not a person has had the "born again" experience. I can go back and point to the very spot on this Earth where I passed from death to life. Others might not have had the experience...but are journeying toward it. Others may have come to Christ but haven't yet come to the conclusion about doctrines and traditions. Still others may have felt a longstanding connection with a particular "church" after coming to Christ and hope to point out the flaws there.

Still, I can't help but wonder what would happen if we were enduring the unimaginable persecution that other believers have experienced throughout their lives. Would we spend our time in house churches, caves or tunnels loudly debating about such things. Or would exert our focus and attention on things that are more important.

In THE CROSS AND THE SWITCHBLADE, David Wilkerson spoke about his grandfather. His grandfather was an "old time religion" preacher who wasn't short on the dramatic. Wilkerson remembers a story where his grandfather came to his father's respectable church in an affluent neighborhood and placed his old muddy boots on the clean altar. The grandfather then preached a message about being unashamed of the Gospel...and asked for the windows to be opened so that everyone in the neighborhood could hear. He then directed the congregation to sing the praises of God loudly. According to David Wilkerson, it was a turning point in the church where his father worked. It all started with a pair of muddy boots.

David Wilkerson was greatly influenced by his grandfather (more so, it seems, than his own father). His grandfather would preach anywhere -- including atop a city trolley. He was constantly proclaiming the Gospel and doing what he could to win others to Christ. Yet, Wilkerson's grandfather also believed in what he called "lamb chop" theology. He said:

“You win over people just like you win over a dog,” he used to say. ”You see a dog passing down the street with an old bone in his mouth. You don’t just grab the bone from him and tell him it’s not good for him. He’ll growl at you. It’s the only thing he has. But you throw a big fat lamb chop down in front of him, and he’s going to drop that bone and pick up the lamb chop, his tail wagging to beat the band. And you’ve got a friend. Instead of going around grabbing bones from people, or cutting feathers off them (he is referring to another method of bringing conviction to sinners – cutting ostentatious feathers off of lady’s hats as they walked down the aisle to the altar call) I’m going to throw them some lamb chops. Something with real meat and life in it. I’m going to tell them about New Beginnings.”

Sometimes, I feel like our debates are akin to trying to take the "old bones" out of a dog's mouth. When someone tries to take our old bone, we bite down upon it even harder. It is much more helpful to proclaim the truth than concentrate our efforts on exposing lies. That way, we leave our "old bone" by our own will.

Yet, we sometimes try to do both simultaneously by believing that exposing lies is the same as proclaiming the truth. It isn't the same thing. If we proclaim the TRUTH -- the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- we don't have to focus so much on the lies. Remember: A Mormon isn't going to Hell BECAUSE he is a Mormon. A Mormon -- like all others -- will go to Hell because he doesn't know Jesus Christ. The same is true of Muslims, Jews, Catholics, atheists or anyone else who doesn't know Jesus. Our mission is not to show them how flawed their systems of beliefs might be. We are most effective by introducing the Good News to them and allowing them to leave their former philosophies on their own.

When I left my agnostic views, it wasn't because a Christian convinced me of the "error of my ways." Rather, it was because I was introduced to Jesus Christ. Like the dog that Grandfather Wilkerson mentioned, I abandoned the "old bone" way of thinking for something that had substance to it.

I do wish that we could approach one another without the "gift of suspicion" and simply allow the Lord to have His own work. If we were enduring persecution, something tells me that we would already focus on the things that matter most.

*EDIT - I do appreciate the effort made here by Greg and the other moderators to prompt us to avoid divisions and focus on that which is most important.

Doctrine and politics... What else is there to discuss? lol...

there are 2 sisters in these forums whom I have never seen discussing doctrines. But I have seen them bringing valuable revelation about Jesus Christ. This is what we need in our Christian walk, to know Jesus more and more in our life. There is plenty to discuss about Christ and plenty to share about him that will encourage people.

Hebrews 3-12:-
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

I personally believe that if we come into SI with an attitude to learn then we have million reasons to stay in SI.

When I was growing up, there were many “oneness” Pentecostals in our area that believed that if a person was not baptized “in Jesus’ name” he could not go to heaven. The preacher could not say “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost”, he had to say “in the name of Jesus”, or the baptism wasn’t correct, and the person couldn’t go to heaven.

Likewise, I believed that since they were “believing a lie”, then none of the people in that religion could possibly go to heaven. Since then, I have met many of them whose lives I KNOW have been transformed by the gospel, even though they were taught the way that they were taught. They considered us “Catholics” because we believe in the trinity. Later I came to realize that within that religion there are some who are truly trusting in Christ for their salvation even though they have “the proper baptism” (improper according to the way I believe), yet there are others in that religion who are depending on their “proper (improper) baptism” for their salvation, and can in no way go to heaven.

With their doctrine, I have often wondered: “if your way is the only way to get to heaven, what happened to the millions of Christians who brought you the Bible and Christianity before the recent surge of “oneness” teaching began in the early 1900s.

Equally, I have to wonder how can anyone say that EVERY soul that is in the Catholic system will go to hell, when we don’t know each individual in the 1,500+ years before Protestantism and even the many in the system even today who may be in language groups that barely even understand the Catholic teachings, yet they can read the scripture, and possibly can have established a real relationship with God through simple faith in Christ’s sacrifice. Of course if they are depending on what they do in their religion to be their salvation, they are not saved … but how do we know their hearts to know that that is the case in every case? Some may be really trusting Christ and not their sacraments for their salvation.

Today we've limited the scope of doctrine to systems of belief and proper definitions of terms. Yet the doctrine of Christ was as much if not more about character than the proper definition of church dogma.

Discernment ministries (for lack of a better word) limit themselves to be the guardians of dogmatics these days. They are rightly concerned with wrong teachings: Jesus isn't God, the Bible has errors,...etc. etc. Where they go wrong is when they think that you have to have the 'fundamentals' absolutely correct or there is no fellowship.

Personally, I was a christian before I believed that Jesus was God. So was Keith Green btw. No man ever convinced me that Jesus was God. Christ taught me. I had come to the conclusion by reading the book of Hebrews. I still didn't even know there was such a thing as the Trinity and yet I was still a Christian...imagine that.

Christ through the Holy Spirit is more than capable of correcting our theology. We're called to be patient with each other. We can plead with each other but it must always be God who convinces and gives repentance. He is truly Lord of His Church.

Biblical discernment is one of the gifts of the Spirit. Therefore it is supernatural. It isn't gained by attending a conference or reading a book or taking a class. I am able to see the difference between a Buddhist monk and a preacher of the Gospel. That's not discernment, that's common sense. The spiritual gift of discernment warns when someone comes preaching the Christ of the Bible and yet is not one of Christ's own. He may even have all his doctrines in perfect alignment! "But I know that you do not have the love of God within you." John 5:42 That's discernment. Knowing that Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons, and Muslims etc. are in error, or that Jesus is God, God is eternal, God exists as a trinity...ect., this is not discernment, it's just good study. It's useful in its place, but it can become a weapon in the hands of a zealous brother.

I was a bit surprised by the people who were banned.

Incorrect. They were raptured. :)

A great Tozer quote... To be right with God has often meant to be in trouble with men. - Tozer.

This message is to the Moderators... PLEASE do not ever ask me to be a moderator. :P