WayneFerrel
Mar 4, 2005
I have always been a pre tribulation rapture guy, but in reading Mark 13, looks like post trib rapture. Please helpGod bless
I have always been a pre tribulation rapture guy, but in reading Mark 13, looks like post trib rapture. Please helpGod bless
I don't know what happened, but here goes again.I am an ex-pretribber. There are many scriptures which show Jesus coming back 1 last time, not 2, so I will not focus on that unless you want me to post them. The more important thing I believe the Lord showed me was that when Jesus returns it will be for a COMPLETED Body. Here are some scriptures for your consideration: Eph. 1:10, Acts 3:19-21, II Pet. 2:9, Rev. 6:9-11, James 5:7, (Mt. 24:31,Mk. 13:27, I Thess. 4:14-17----dead and alive and remaining reunited as ONE), Lk. 15:4-7 (it interesting to note that the "shepherd" does not take the 99 home to safety before going after the lost, He leaves them in the wilderness until all are reunited----THEN He takes them home and celebrates). Happy Studying. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy :-)
I'm pan-trib. I reckon it'll all pan out. I used to give myself head-aches trying to figure this all out. I've discovered it doesnt really matter when I believe about this... it's all gonna pan out according to His will.Krispy
LOL... I agree KrispyKrittr.It WILL all pan out.I try to keep an open mind, in other words, I don't plan on falling for anything, and certainly will not be taking any marks on my hand or forehead!But, I tend to be pre-trip...but again, it will all work out...as long as we are close to our Savior and Lord.
There is a small percentage of me that says yes, it is possible there will be no pre-trib rapture. I'm okay with that. But I'm mostly pre-trib.One obstacle the mid-post trib crowd has never overcome with me is all the scripture (much of it from Jesus's own mouth) that suggests His coming will be a surprise. Like a thief in the night. The Bible is quite clear we're not going to know it is coming. It will be fast, it will be instant and it will surprise.If Jesus is to come back after the trib, his coming will surprise NO ONE ON EARTH All will be expecting him. Heck, it's the battle of Armageddon we're talking about here...the forces of evil will be scanning the heavens waiting to attack Him. Thanks to the prophets, we're practically going to know the EXACT date! (and we're not to know the day or the hour). Tell me, if YOU lived through the tribulation, wouldn't you be counting the days from the Abmonation of Desolation? And if it didn't happen on that EXACT date, would you be looking heavenward the next day and the day after that, and the day after that?Who on earth would be surprised by this "thief" at that time??How can anyone possibly reconcile "coming as a thief in the night" with the description of Christ's return for Armageddon?
I've seen so many good arguments on this subject for all positions. God's Word will come to pass. We see through a glass darkly. I'm certain that all of this will come to pass in ways no man has ever dreamed of. It will be so unique, yet it will all occur just like the bible says. Remember, His ways are above our ways. Why do we have to always try to figure God out to love and worship Him. Why not let Him be God, and we just hold on tight? For over 100,000 people, today will be their day of "rapture". Many will die suddenly and by surprise. What good is all the "teaching" on the rapture to these people? No doubt, most will die without Christ, while the christians argue over when Jesus is coming. Selah. Within the last year, I ran across a scripture that solidified my position. It's found in Rev. 20. Now you must understand, in Rev 20, Satan has already been bound a thousand years, the beast and the anti christ are thrown into the lake of fire. Time is on the threshold of the millineal reign of Jesus Christ. Here something very dramatic happens. It's called, the "FIRST RESURRECTION". Now, even the pre-tribs will tell you that at His "coming", the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST. How can this "first resurrection" occur twice? There simply cannot be two "first resurrections". I'm going with what the Bible says, not trying to read into it what I've been taught as someone's phylosophy. Now, about the discussion of it being a surprise. I dont' think there will be many true christians alive around the end of the battle of Armagedon. Most will be killed during the trib for their faith. The mass of people that called themselves believers, especially in the USA, will have taken the mark of the beast and doomed themselves for hell. They will not be looking for his coming, but for their next meal. So, I'm with those who say Jesus is coming back "once" and for all. Oh, you just might be interested in reading who is going to rule and reign with Jesus during the millineum. That's in Rev 20 also. Thank you for your comments, and for suffering through mine. Together, we can make a difference. Now, someone was discussing how
If I must be anywhere it would be in the pan-camp as well,I'm certain that all of this will come to pass in ways no man has ever dreamed of. It will be so unique, yet it will all occur just like the bible says. Remember, His ways are above our ways. Why do we have to always try to figure God out to love and worship Him. Why not let Him be God, and we just hold on tight? How much of this applies straight across the board? It was another Mike who stated that "We have a scripted apologetic for every obstacle to our theology" Am completely content to let it all pan out. Find it interesting that the first coming took everyone by surprise primarily in their expectations. Would put it this way, won't be surprised at all, if it happens in my life time, am anticipating being taken by surprise.It's like knowing your friends are up to something as your birthday approaches, you sense that they might be setting up a 'surprise party'. You come home having forgotten all about it, flip on the switch and... "SURPRISE!""I knew you guy's were going to do this!"
Lahry, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17"the dead in Christ will rise first, then we wich are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.This is the second coming of Christ, correct?Resurrection, is bringing something from the deadso what about the ones who are alive?Wayne
...they will join Jesus too. What does this have to do with pre-trib? No comment on Rev 20?
Hi folks I would like to toss in an interesting side note. I am leading a small group in a study of Revelation, and was surprised by a couple of insights that we had in regards to some of the people mentioned in Rev. 6 & 7. In Rev. 6:9 there is a group of people who appear to be the myrtered Saints from Steven to the begining of the tribulation, and in Rev.7:9 there is another group of people, and verse 7:14 tells us that these are great tribulation myrters. I just found it interesting that there was no mention of any Saints snatched up waiting to see JESUS..
Now, about the discussion of it being a surprise. I dont' think there will be many true christians alive around the end of the battle of Armagedon. Most will be killed during the trib for their faith. The mass of people that called themselves believers, especially in the USA, will have taken the mark of the beast and doomed themselves for hell. They will not be looking for his coming, but for their next meal.Even so, if there is but ONE Christian left in the world who knows their Bible and is waiting for Jesus's return (having the exact date)...and scripture doesn't say "No christian knows the day or hour" it says "No MAN knows the day..." Those left alive in the late trib will be waiting for Christ...Christian or otherwise...and many of them (unsaved) will know the Bible better than you or I do.Many WILL KNOW the day that Jesus will return after the Trib...it is very clearly spelled out in scripture.that makes Christ a liar if it's His only coming.Reconcile that, please...
Resurrection, is bringing something from the dead so what about the ones who are alive? Those who are "alive and remaining" will be "changed" (I Cor. 15:51-52). In effect, the "alive" ARE DEAD, in the flesh. They will be changed/made alive---in the flesh--- when He comes as well. The only difference is they will not have to "taste death" as those who have gone down into the grave will.Lahry, I'm with you on Rev. 20. I cannot get on board with those who teach: "first" doesn't really mean "first" as we know it, but the Rev. 20 saints are raised at a latter time in the first resurrection........a many phased event. I just don't see scriptural evidence of this: I Cor. 15:23-24 teaches that Christ is the firstfruits, THEN they who are His at His coming....THEN comes the end (not a 7 year time period with Him coming AGAIN and saints being raised then too). So in reality, if we are looking at a phased 1st resurrection, there are only two phases clearly spoken of in scripture: When Christ was raised, and the raising of the saints as spoken in Rev. 20:4-6. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy :-)
Angyl, I would ask you: is there any scripture which shows men correctly being able to apply and know the exact time of His coming? In other words, they are "looking up" during the day of His coming, in expectation? I don't see any evidence of this 'knowledge' in the BOR. If we are to use the 1260 days, when do they begin? Dan. 12:10-13 speaks of this time period as well. Will all who believe and follow the Lord KNOW the exact day of His return and which scriptures are speaking of which current events? I think if men 'could' rightly discern the day of His coming, wouldn't we see evidence of this in the Word of God? I see destruction, then shock when people realize the "wrath of God" is now come (Rev. 6:12-17, 11:11-18). I think those who are still "alive and remaining (surviving all around---I Thess. 4:15,17, Mk. 13:20)" will know the SEASON----and they are told to watch when they see the SEASON starting to occur. If the "thief" passages are to apply to a pre-trib rapture, why the "watching"? What are we watching for if there is nothing which needs to happen before His coming? It seems to me that Jesus spoke very plainly about many things which need to happen prior to His return. That's why He states: When you SEE ALL THESE THINGS, look up for your redemption draws close/near........what things shall we see?...........as in the days of Noah: ungodliness was rampant, life was going on as usual----- false prophets, deception, itching ears, men lovers of themselves, covenant and peace breakers, liars, rebellious children-----signs in the stars, sun, moon, men's hearts failing them for fear of what's coming, sea and waves roaring, heavens shaken (sounds very much like Rev. 6:12-17) ........When we see all things (Lk. 21:31)know that the kingdom of God is close and then.......they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory (Lk. 21:27, Mt. 24:30, Mt. 13:27, Rev. 6:16-17, 11:15-18, Rev. 19:11-16. Blessings in Him, Cindy
1 Thess, 5:9 God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through Jesus ChristPlease explain
God did not send the flood until Noah and his family were safe in the ark. God did not destroy Sodom until Lot was taken out
Noah was saved through the storm, not from the storm. Certainly all the "signs" that Jesus spoke about are all about us. When Jesus says "when you see", we have to remember who is doing the "seeing". Is it the eyes of 21st century american He is speaking of? Is it the Nigerian? Or is the the Israelite? We tend to judge everything from our own perspective. Sometimes this gets us into deep trouble. The bible tells us that when Israel signs a peace treaty with the Arabs, the 7 year trib will begin. When this happens, if there is nobody "missing" among those who "call themselves christians", then it means one of two things. Either one is not really a christian, or there is no pre-trib rapture. Then what? The church at large today seems to be focused on leaving. The Holy Spirit is interested in how many can be saved before the Father says it is enough. One of our young posters here has in his signature lines the following:"Evangelism is the cure for the disease known as church boredom". I say amen and amen. We have lost our vision for souls. We sit around in our glut of all gluts waiting on Jesus to snatch us out of our palaces and into His. We expect the operation of "gifts" in our services to "entertain,...ah, I mean bless us". The operation of the gifst of the Holy Spirit without the harvest is like a brand new farm tractor up on blocks with no wheels. It is simply a fine machine but it's not going anywhere. It's not accomplishing it's intended function. We are waiting on God, while God is waitng on someone who will bring in the harvest. A rich young ruler came to Jesus and asked Him a question. Most any bible reader knows this story. Beloved, you and I are far richer than this young man who faced Jesus that day. That rich young ruler could not imagine the luxury even a modest american family lives in. Dont think of Bill Gates or Donald Trump when you read "rich young ruler". What was Jesus' reply to his question? How will you respond to His question? What good will a Pre-trib rapture do if your life or mine is ended today? How important will the rapture be to you or I if we alone have to stand before God today? Today? What will we answer when He askes us what we did with our "gifts" and talents. "Oh we set them on a shelf Lord, waiting on Jesus to come". Will God be able to say "well done good and faithful servant"? Before you answer, remember God cannot lie. "But Lord, we cast out demons in your name and prophecied". What will be His reply? "But Lord, you preached in our streets and in our synagoues." What will be His reply? Will you be thrilled with His answer? Will the rapture of the church be important to you at that time? When Jesus does come and sits upon His Throne and divides the nations as a sheperd divides the sheep from the goats, what will He ask you? What will your answer be? Matthew 25:31-46. Will the rapture of the church "doctrine" have anything to do with His question or your or my reply? Selah! Saints, we need to begin to live what the bible teaches instead of debating what it says. Our knowlege of scripture will matter naught if there is no personal relationship with the Father, throug the Son, by the Holy Spirit. To know to do good and not do it is sin. Are you content with the way your life is going. Can others see Jesus in you....or me? Does our life exhibit a fountain of charity? (Charity is agape love = love plus benevalence as in Matthew 25:31-46). Love is just a condition of the heart. Charity is a way of life. Who have you been a blessing too of late? Who have I? These are very serious questions. Why? Because they are very serious to Jesus. What will your answer be? What will mine be? We had better be right. "But Lord, I knew that you were coming pre-trib". Does that not sound a bit shallow to you? It does to me. Selah!
Our knowlege of scripture will matter naught if there is no personal relationship with the Father, throug the Son, by the Holy Spirit. To know to do good and not do it is sin. Are you content with the way your life is going. Can others see Jesus in you....or me? Does our life exhibit a fountain of charity? (Charity is agape love = love plus benevalence as in Matthew 25:31-46). Love is just a condition of the heart. Charity is a way of life. Who have you been a blessing too of late? Who have I? These are very serious questions. Why? Because they are very serious to Jesus. What will your answer be? What will mine be? We had better be right. "But Lord, I knew that you were coming pre-trib". Does that not sound a bit shallow to you? It does to me. Selah!Yes and Amen. I do believe correct doctrine is important though because what we believe about God, His nature, His judgments, His Grace------all these things WILL determine HOW we live/abide IN HIM. Our outward witness WILL reflect what we believe---in Word and in Deed. If we have a false belief of His Will, His Plan, His heart, His purpose for us and others who are or will be "in Christ", we will be subject to falling for fleshly desires (we "think" are ok with the Lord), ungodly reasonings, and ultimately will have actions that do not line up with His Will. Our 'witness' will be negatively affected. So Truth is important----for individual growth in Christ as well as for the edification of the whole Body of Christ. A little "leaven" is not a good thing. However, to debate just to debate----not for the edification of the Body, is pointless and in the end, will not matter in our eternal standing.Concerning I Thess. 5:9-10, if one actually takes that passage apart they will see that it is contrast/comparison. If one receives "wrath" it is because they don't receive salvation through Christ. Whoever is/will be "in Christ" will never receive His wrath (Jn. 3:36, Rev. 11:18). Jesus taught in Jn. 6:37-40 all the Father gave to Him, WILL come to Him and Jesus will lose none of them. Those whom the Father gave (past tense, Eph. 1:3-14) WILL Come to Jesus and He will raise them up on the last day.Some try to apply I Thess. 5:9 to all the saints prior to a pre-trib rapture, but they leave out "tribulation" saints. The thing is: God the Father has already given Jesus all who will belong to Him........the timing of their "coming" to Him is in the Father's hands. He does not pour His wrath on those who belong to His Son that He has not drawn yet. His wrath is reserved for those who will not "come"---ie; receive salvation through Jesus. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy :-)
...this is true. Those who are His are offered the Cross. Tozer once said, "God crucifies without pity, those whom He wishes to raise without measure". Selah. Now, you may be interested in reading "Foxes Book of Martyrs".
I have always been a pre tribulation rapture guy, but in reading Mark 13, looks like post trib rapture. Please helpI think this is a great subject and I encourage everyone to look into the scriptures and share what the Lord shows you. For myself I am what you could call a pan-trib meaning I think it will all work out and I really don't have a firm position on the issue. I will as time permits share some scriptures the Lord has shown me recently, let's try and keep it as much as possible sharing scriptures etc and less argument. I think it will edify and bless people the best this way.
It would be well beyond the scope of this thread to deal with the issues involved in pretribulational rapturism. There are some very learned men and women who hold this view and can defend it quite well. Yet, no matter who is dealing with the topic, to be honest we have to stop and understand that with prophecy we just do not know.Keep in mind that the Jews knew with certainty the when of the first coming of Messiah, but they did not know with certainty the what (what He would be doing). It is the exact opposite for us as we know with great certainty the what, but are uncertain of the when. The uncertainty opens the door for man to be tried by fire. The Jews were tried because they had Messianic concepts that were birthed of their own aspirations and had nothing to do with God. It was their selfish 'take' on what the prophets said. What happened? When things did not go according to their 'interpretation' of the prophets- everything blew apart for them. They were an evil and adulterous generation and they had it all figured out. Yet there was no way they could forge Christ into their 'mold.' What did they do? After He was crucified and rose again in 135 CE a Jewish Rabbi by the name of Akiba (Akiva) appointed Simon Bar. Kochba as the true Messiah and since then the Jews have been locked up in Rabbinic Judaism and Israel was totaly destroyed as we once knew it. How does that apply to us? We are in danger that if the 'when' does not go down like we think it should that we likewise would follow a false Messiah. What would happen if we woke up and heard that everyone was to receive a mark in their right hand or forehead or they cannot buy or sell? No rapture has taken place- so what do we do? Do we take the mark and say "well, this cannot be the mark of the beast because the rapture has not taken place." Or do we say, well we didn't know for sure when the Lord was going to return but he was pretty clear on the right hand or forehead thing- so we better not take any mark on us. Wayne asked about the whole 'appointed unto wrath' issue. My answer to that is that there will be no Saints here when the wrath of God is poured out save the 144,000. They will have been either 'raptured' or 'martyred.' Wrath must not be confused with persecution. The Church is suffering martyrs as we speak and has since the New Testament period. Jesus talked about loving our life or loosing it for His sake. He talked about being faithful to the end. many such passages. only in America can we envision a Christianity that can stroll into the pearly gates without any real persecution. What shall we do? Be ye ready- for in such an hour as you think not , the Lord doth come. God Bless,-Robert
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