James Dobson: Connecticut Shooting a Result of God Allowing Judgment to Fall on America

Why is it that Christian 'leaders' feel the need to put out 'knee jerk' statements such as the above.

The problem I have with this statement is the term "God has allowed judgement to fall...".

Does he mean that God is judging or that someone or something else is judging and God allows it?

If it is God's judgment, it comes from Him and cannot be described as something He 'allows'. When we talk about God 'judging' in these type of events we need to be very careful what we attribute to God and what is meant.

Do we really think that God will specifically judge the nation by killing 20 children? Do we not consider how heart broken God is over this?

In the pre-flood world it was not the violence and wickeness that filled the earth that was God's judgment, but His judgment came as a RESULT of the evil that prevailed at that time. In the same way, God's judgment will eventually come to this world because of the inceasing evil that recent events are just a part of.

What we see in such things as the Sandy Hook tragedy is definitely an outcome of increasing ungodliness in a world that rejects the rule of God in the affairs of mankind. God's judgment will come in response to this. Sandy Hook in itself is not God's judgment.

I agree with you heydave, in a sense.

There is a fine and perhaps indecipherable line between God "allowing" and God "causing." Every time I try to think about this, I find myhself thinking in circles so I try to not do so.

From a logical standpoint, allowing something to happen when you have all the power available to stop it = causing it to happen. If Superman fails to stop a child falling off a cliff to his death when he is standing right there, he is a villain, not a hero.

But God is not a villain. But he obviously allows horrible and evil things to happen that He could very easily prevent.

So, I am not sure what good it is to say that what happened at Sandy Hook "did not come" from God. God knew what was going to happen, but did nothing to prevent it despite it being in His power to do so. That is, of course, if you believe in the traditional idea of the sovereignty of God. That, however, is a whole different discussion.

TMK, I understand where you are coming from on the sovereignty of God, but this is not what this about.

It would be true to say that in the sovereignty of God every bad thing that has happened on earth since Adam fell is a result of God's 'universal' judgment. This would include the event we are discussing.

However to pick out one particular act of evil and say this is a specific act of God's judgment on a nation is a whole different thing. As has been pointed out on other threads 'you reap what you sow'. You could call this a judgement, but it is part of the universal judgment. What I am concerned about is a public statement that says this event happened as a result of God deciding to act in specific judgment. I'm not saying that cannot happen, but we better be very sure before saying so.

I personally think it is more part of the universal judgment of mankind and the law of reaping what you sow.
Not that those children and adults in particular reaped what they sowed, but the society/nation is reaping what it sows.

Appolos put the point very well in the other thread on this issue.

I believe we could learn something from the first two chapters of Job. God allowed Satan to do what he did, but in Job 2:3, God somewhat takes responsibility because He allowed it.

Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

God is all powerful, and CAN stop the evil but chooses not to for His all-knowing reasons which are too high above our finite understanding to grasp. The Heart of God weeps as He sees a much worse tragedy. Millions of youngsters grow up in this perverted society and get twisted against the gospel and go to hell for eternity. That is a much worse tragedy that what happened to the 20 at Sandy Hook, yet few people are crying about it! For a brief time we get to feel a tiny taste of the oceans of sorrow that He feels continually.

James Dobson, in his mind I'm sure, has reasoned his frequent more controversial statements. Giving him his due, I think he is also often misunderstood as are many. As Forrest Gump might state, that's all I have to say about that.

When I think of God passing judgment I most always turn immediately to the Old Testament when God told Moses He would harden Pharaoh's heart. I think right then God passed judgment on Pharaoh. The same basic scenario is seen elsewhere within the bible in both individuals and nations. In this perspective I think God continues to do likewise today. The battle between good and evil has been fought and won. In essence, judgment was passed on all mankind and nations centuries ago. In a sense, the passing of time is simply a process allowing creation to "catch up" to the judgment event. In this process God, in His infinite wisdom and grace, has provided the only means by which to avoid this ultimate judgment. The choice is ours alone.

Was the tragedy at Newtown a judgment? I think not. I do however think it to be the continuing fulfillment of an ancient curse or "promise", if you will, given to Adam in the Garden of Eden and passed to all mankind from generation to generation even from conception and/or birth. We all have an appointment with death. For some the appointed time is sooner than others, rest assured all will keep the appointment in time, on time, at the correct time.

Understandably, as finite physical beings, we weep, feel sorrow and mourn the deaths of these children of Newtown. Yet I am confident

God has provided special heavenly provision for children who have not yet attained an age of understanding of salvation. I can find only comfort in this thought.

My thoughts then turn to the adults who lost their lives in this tragedy. My hopes are they each knew Jesus as personal Lord and Saviour. For them, the choice has been their's to make or to reject and they shall have no further opportunity. This tragedy should drive home the idea and consideration, seek Jesus while He can be found, now is the accepted time for we have no guarantee of tomorrow.
Just a simple man's simple thoughts.

I am sure God allowed it to happen. Without God's will nothing can happen. Jesus said to the Roman ruler 'You have no authority over me than what my father has given you'. No one has any authority over any destruction except a permission given by God. He can prevent lots of destruction. And indeed he is preventing them in my life till I do complete his will.

But we cannot name such an event as a judgment because it turns people way from God than coming to God. This raises question on God's judgment saying why should he judge these little children and cause them die. Judgment means God doing it as a result of some action. I don't think God did this. It is the evil inside one man did that. Out of the evil in one man's heart resulted in such a big tragedy. Now that in US every man is given right to choose his own evil way of living then how much more tragedies can happen? We need to take responsibility for such tragedies than blaming God.

James 1:13:-Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted [n]by God”; for God cannot be tempted [o]by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

I would also add to the problem of School Shootings: The availability of guns and the legislation connected to it. Zero guns= zero school shootings (that simple).

Magnus

Of course God is not happy when the innocent are impacted by such a tragedy but there are spiritual laws in effect that are immutable. Why did Daniel need to be taken into captivity into Babylon when it was not he who had sinned against God thus bringing judgement? Or Uzzah who innocently tried to do a good thing by steadying the ark on the cart that was never supposed to transport it in the first place and fell dead? No individual sins in a vacuum nor does a society and when either turns from God the just and unjust are affected.

However, tragedies such as this and responses such as Dr. Dobson's should cause us to look introspectly given the moral condition of the country is a direct reflection on the Church's influence. If we are being salt and light then our surroundings will reflect it.

I'm not a gun person but am a proponent of individual rights and am saddened at the probability of more of our constitution foundation slipping away. I see no alternative since when God's laws are no longer written on the hearts of men there must be laws established to maintain order. We need God to touch our land brothers and sisters.

mangan wrote:

"I would also add to the problem of School Shootings: The availability of guns and the legislation connected to it. Zero guns= zero school shootings (that simple)."

True, but unfortunately guns DO exist. Unless all guns could be magically made to disappear, gun laws will do nothing. Why? because criminals, and even law abiding citizens, will not give up their guns. There are far too many guns in existence for any gun control legislation to make a hill of beans difference now.

TMK! I beg to differ. A legislation would over time, change peoples attitude towards guns. Begin with making it illegal to own a gun without license.Then you should make it illegal as well for a regular citizen who has a license to own military-like-weapon (one might wonder what use a regular citizen have of a machine gun; is it war in the neighbourhood??) .

I saw on the news recently that all you needed to in US if you were interested in guns was to walk into a gun store and buy dozens of weapons (all according to taste).

Even if legislation would not remove all guns from the households and the communities (which I do agree is impossible given the history of US) it would surely show some people what is righteous on this matter. As Christians a prohibition would not be a problem since our Lord and saviour was himself no man of violence and without doubt would not look kindly on so called brothers who is preoccupied with defending the right for citizens to carry weapons.

In perspective in Sweden it is illegal even to carry a pocket knife on public places let alone any gun.

Sincerely Magnus

Hi Mangan--

I refer you to this thread:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=47786&forum=48&2

Without wanting to trivialise this issue I want to share something that happened today.

I was in a store with my wife buying some things for Christmas, one of which was a box of Christmas crackers. (Not sure if you have these in the USA, but the paper and card tubes with a little strip of card that when you pull them it gives a small 'crack'). Well at the self service till when we scanned the item through, an alarm flagged up the need for an assistant to come and check as it was a restricted item. They needed to check we were old enough to buy these crackers.. you have to be older than 16 (years, not months) to purchase crackers it seems. Being in our 50s we passed the test!

I was amazed and could not get over the irony that here there was a restriction on purchasing a harmless item such as a Cristmas cracker, while in the USA they are debating if you can restrict the purchase of semi-automatic assult weapons! It's a crazy mixed up world!

No wonder the world is turned off to God when men in leadership make stupid statements like this in the public forum.

Ruf

rufnrust....No wonder the world is turned off to God when men in leadership make stupid statements like this in the public forum.
Ruf

The reason "some" Pastors and Christians alike make statements like this is, they can't be God and cause the wrath to happen they wish, so they push an opinion, to satisfy the minds of their followers, and their own sick minds. Life and death are in the power of the tongue,God did not cause the Connecticut Shooting, it was the evil one.

1 Pet 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.