Times Square Church Ecumenism Video

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elias7291 Dec 28, 2012

Greetings all,

I saw this video on youtube that pretty much said TSC was moving in an ecumenism direction. They based it all on the fact that Pastor Carter several times recently (this year) has said that in the final days there should be a coming together and working together of all denominations including the catholic church. They also mention Beth moore of evidence of this. I don't know who this lady is so i cannot judge.

What do you all think?

personally I thought nothing of it. This is sort of the angry watchman that Carter speaks about. As far as i am able to comprehend, I do believe that there are some genuine saved catholics and others in all denominations (I exclude here cults like the mormons and witnesses). even Carter in his testimony from his early days at TSC (1994?) mentions "a godly nun" who saw the great work that was to be given to him (carter).

Nevertheless, TSC remains one of the few large churches that I follow. They are carrying the legacy of Pastor Dave and I am continually blessed from both classic TSC sermons and TSC sermons of today. And most importantly, time and time again TSC proves to be a church of doers. They follow Jesus' command to love your neighbor. Definitely a good example for all churches.

blessings!

H

Heydave Dec 28, 2012

I do think in these days we need to be very aware and discerning of the spirits. However I watched this clip and think it is trying to use very loose connections to make a case against TSC and Carter.

I would give Carter the benefit of the doubt and think he is not suggesting a coming together at the expense of truth, but rather a move of the Holy Spirit in reforming those denominations. I would probably disagree with him on this, but I don't think he is advocating eccumenialism as the clip suggested.

Regarding beth Moore, I don't like the look of this, but too short to be able to make a fair judgment. Again the makers of this video clip are trying to discredit TSC by association, which is not right.

All this said, we do have to be alert, because it is possible for anyone to become deceived by the enemy and move away from the narrow way.

sermonindex Dec 28, 2012

Pastor Carter several times recently (this year) has said that in the final days there should be a coming together and working together of all denominations including the catholic church.

Towards Beth Moore yes that seems unhealthy and not right in her emphasis there. I personally do not listen to or agree with her teachings anyways. But towards pastor Carter Conlon he does not say Catholic Church but Charismatic Catholics. That is something David Wilkerson spoke of often and mentioned in his book: "The Vision".

Many do not realize the work of God that happened in the 70's and 80's saving many Catholics, many came out of the Catholic church but some stayed in the church because the Pope told the movement they could stay in the basement of Catholic Churches, this was a deceiving and clever move that have kept many in the "System".

Not all Charismatic Catholics are saved but definitely some of them are. I hope that clears up the confusion, Pastor Carter does not agree with or believe the Catholic System is right at all.

To me it is sad that brothers would make videos like this without even speaking with Pastor Carter himself and try and damage his good name by their posting etc trying to infer that he promotes false doctrines etc.

C

Compton Dec 28, 2012

If we are honest we can respect that there has always been a tension between how inclusive and how exclusive to be regarding the company we keep. We see this tension in Mark 9, Matthew 12, Luke 11, and even Numbers 11.

Moses asked those who were worried about rival prophets, this rather rhetorical question "Are you jealous for my sake?", and Jesus, flowing in the same spirit, answered ""For whoever is not against us, is for us."

I think we need to be merciful with others and ourselves with this tension, and admit that the lines we use to exclude others are not always as clear as we would like them to be. This is why i think denominations emerge in the first place, to allow people of like mind to draw the smallest circle around themselves, in order to resolve as many controversies in their own consciences as possible. In this light, I think denominations can be a healthy decision if only to relieve some tension for ourselves, but it becomes yet another source of bigoted unhealthy tension if we must set out to prove that everyone else is a heretic for not ascribing to our particular strain of the faith.

It is natural for people to want to resolve dissonances in their own ears, because we are comforted by harmonies. Likewise it is natural for people to want to align one another's beliefs to their own; so much so, that I imagine many readers of my post will become uncomfortable with the ambiguity I am suggesting we accept here. Yet I am not ambiguous on one point, and that is we who confess Christ, are held secure in our belief by his perfect theology, not ours. The government is on his capable shoulders, thankfully.

And so, seeing as not even Jesus' desciples were perfectly aligned with their masters' beliefs and world views, it is likely that the "rivals" they were fretting over also held to some some unorthodox points in their frameworks. In response, Jesus neither tried to recruit them to his group, nor did he condemn them for having their own fellowship. He only offered the curiously ambiguous phrase, "those who are not against us, are for us." Perhaps his desciples wanted to build an institution, while Jesus simply wanted to build his true Church.

In one very real sense, all of us come from different institutions, but we share a common experience; we are all survivors of those various failed institutions we have put our faith in. Some of us were Catholic, and some of us were Evangelical, some of us were Jewish, some of us were Muslem, and even some of us were academics! Now, we are seeing our once stable institutions, both secular and religious, crack and crumble all around us. I admit it is frightening to consider that even our own institutions are toppling and have already fallen into the piles of history. Within the rubble of these fallen structures are going to be survivors. Rather then rope off the wreckage, why not be open to being kind to those who, who like us, see through a glass darkly, but still hope to find some light.

Just my thoughts on this important question,

Blessings,

MC

H

hulsey Dec 28, 2012

I didn't see anything in the video that I haven't seen in TSC for years. As has already been said, Wilkerson and the other leaders of TSC have always welcomed charismatic Catholics. I know Wilkerson accepted the Charismatic Renewal among Catholics as genuine when it happened in the late 1960's and early 70's. Many would be surprised to know that when the Jesus People revival happened a generation ago it affected the Catholic Church also in America.

One glaring error in the video is the claim that Conlon has changed the character of TSC from non-denominational to inter-denominational. The author of the video highlights a newspaper article that referred to TSC as non-denominational. Obviously the newspaper doesn't differentiate between the two and the difference is really most subtle. TSC refers to themselves as inter-denominational because that is how David Wilkerson viewed the Church there. I've heard him on many occasions as far back as the early 90's give that title to TSC. When I visited TSC back in 2002 it was prominently displayed on the marquee. I wouldn't have pointed this out except that the author of the video sets up a straw-man argument. He/she labels inter-denominational churches as sinister and in grievous error and then after mistakenly showing that TSC has changed its characterization to an inter-denominational church proceeds to attack that label. This is dishonesty masquerading as standing for truth. I don't accuse the producers of this video of being deliberate but about a minute of research or a quick phone call to TSC would have relieved them of at least one charge they have made. While I don't accuse them; however, this mistake is not from innocence, rather it is from the enemy.

Edit:

The spirit of this video is a good example of why I started distancing myself from "discernment-ministries" a few years ago. I observed (and it's not true for all of these ministries of course) that as long as you were in agreement 'doctrinally' with these self-imposed gate-keepers all was well. But if you disagreed with any crusade they might be currently undertaking their swords would just as quickly turn toward you. I know of one popular ministry that regularly holds mini-conferences in Branson Mo. His list of speakers grows smaller every year as he is constantly finding something wrong with other ministries that requires him to break fellowship with them. Galatians 5:15 is the hallmark of these ministries.

sermonindex Dec 29, 2012

Brother Compton rightly points out the Scripture, as the basis for his comment " For whoever is not against us is for us."

Now, even those with the most rudimentary knowledge of the Catholic church knows well that for the most part, they have been the most vicious enemy of the genuine church down through the ages, to say nothing of their attempts to brutally oppress the reformation. Most decidedly they were and still are " against us." Their very docrtine states that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic church. They acknowledge that some may have been saved in ignorance to this but once they are informed, they must bow to the teaching authority of the Pope. Martyrs, from the beginning, were killed for refusing to bow to the gods of Rome, and then later for refusing to bow to him who set himself up in place of Christ here on earth, the popes.........bro Frank

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elias7291 Dec 29, 2012

Thank you all for your insights. I have read about the Charismatic Catholics though Ive never met any. I read the preview on amazon of Carter's book "fear not" and he mentions that it was three Charismatic Catholic ladies who prayed for him because God had to him on their hearts though they barely knew carter. This surely could not be a lying spirit.

Hulsey: i too distanced myself from many discernment ministries. Many of these ministries are constantly searching for a sign and when they find it, they label such ministries as heretical. Im for discernment and we should never tolerate heresy, but videos like this really bring shame to the name of Christ.

R

rainydaygirl Dec 29, 2012

by elias7291 on 2012/12/29 9:58:38

Thank you all for your insights. I have read about the Charismatic Catholics though Ive never met any. I read the preview on amazon of Carter's book "fear not" and he mentions that it was three Charismatic Catholic ladies who prayed for him because God had to him on their hearts though they barely knew carter. This surely could not be a lying spirit.

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so my question is were these ladies that were praying for him praying directly to Jesus/God or were they praying to mary or another dead saint? Does Caters book say? I would really be interested to know? I have friends and family who are still in the the Catholic Church(i was but left) and when prayer is offered usually they offer to pray to some long past saint to intervene on my behalf or to mary herself by way of saying a certain number of hail mary prayers. I was always of the understanding that God does not hear these prayers offered up to another instead of to Him?? Is that not correct? what understanding do others have on this? Does God hear the prayers of those who pray to Mary or past saints instead of Jesus?

rdg

sermonindex Dec 29, 2012

HI RDG,

There is but one mediator between man and God. This is the word of God and cannot be broken. If one is praying to dead people then one is praying into a void. My father, who was a very violent alcoholic, came to Jesus at the age of 49, he is now 73. We come from a " very Catholic," background. His sister, my aunt, a charismatic Catholic told everyone after my dad got saved that this was an answer to her prayers. The truth is that many many saints had prayed for my father over the years, not least of which was my poor mother, who suffered great violence for the Lord's sake. So, just because someone claims to have been praying for another, means little. God alone knows.

I have had much interaction with Charismatic Catholics over the years. Here is what I can tell you about my own experience with them. When challenging the Catholic doctrine with a Catholic charismatic, you will become an enemy to them for speaking the truth. The says that we cannot serve two masters, we will love the one and hate the other. Try loving money and serving God and watch yourself drift away from God and become a cast-away. It cannot be done. Now it may take time and a process to reveal this, but ultimately if one has an idol in their hearts this will be revealed and Truth itself will reveal the error.

We have never lived in a time so lacking in discernment. There is no accident in the fact that this generation is supposedly the most Biblicly illiterate generation in 300 years and obviously the generation with the least discernment. Remember, Catholic charismatics crucify Christ afresh every Sunday, at least in their minds when their priest turns a piece of bread into Jesus Himself and some wine into His actual blood............ bro Frank

sermonindex Dec 29, 2012

RDG said: " Does God hear the prayers of those who pray to Mary or past saints instead of Jesus?"

He hears there prayers.. and it moves Him to wrath and anger against them. Jesus is coming back to destroy the roman catholic church and the harlot daughter churches that she has given birth to. The thing is though that there are still some true saints in these systems, God words says so.

Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

Notice above the voice that comes from heaven in this conversation:

1) Testifies that their are Gods people in babylon even up to the very last days

2) Warns them that they must come out of her or be judged

So we see we are not to try and find any good in the system nor are we to support the people in the system. We are to call them out, however the Holy Spirit leads us to. I am in no way supporting the video that is a terrible stretch at trying to indict brother Conlon, but I do not hold any men above being deceived as Jesus said the very elect would be if it were possible.

Ezekial 8:14 Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the LORD, and behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. Then he said to me, "Have you seen this, O son of man? You will see still greater abominations than these."

Substitute weeping for tammuz with praying the rosary if you want to know how the God of the Bible feels about it rather than the God of the vivid imaginations of this generation of confused professing Christians.

Frank said ". When challenging the Catholic doctrine with a Catholic charismatic, you will become an enemy to them for speaking the truth."

Thank you brother for sharing that about the catholic charismatics too. I was under the impression that they had repented of romes sins and just had loose connections. Looked at wikipedia though and they openly commit the same abominations as the rest of rome (I know they claim to be filled with the spirit - so do mormons).

For those wondering about rome being babylon, almost every bible commentary I have in e-sword from Henry, to Wesley, to Geneva say the same things about this and I doubt any of them were angry watchmen.

In Christ -Jim

sermonindex Dec 29, 2012

PS:

There does not seem to be much room for middle ground in this either (ie - if they are not against us they are for us) Is your head marked as one who grieves over these things?

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said to him, "Pass through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in it." And to the others he said in my hearing, "Pass through the city after him, and strike. Your eye shall not spare, and you shall show no pity. Kill old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women, but touch no one on whom is the mark. And begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were before the house. Then he said to them, "Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain. Go out." So they went out and struck in the city.

E

elias7291 Dec 30, 2012

I'm still mixed on the charismatic catholic question. It is best to simply believe God that He do the impossible.

But this brings another question. One of you said that Rome is the harlot spoken in scripture. But what about the eastern denominations like all the orthodox movements such as the Coptic church or the Armenian or the Russian church? Or even the Anglican? Many of these practice the same traditions as Rome. Are they too the "harlot" that the bible speaks of?

I ask because I did community service for an Egyptian Coptic church and they had all the saint things and images but these people were good and some of them prayed fervently.

sermonindex Dec 30, 2012

Elias-

I know talking about RCC is frowned upon here so this will be my last response on the subject but let me address two points (and feel free to contact me privately if you want - God bless you friend).

1) Imagine if we had followed the instructions of Christ and the apostles and did not have denominations or religious titles, in other words imagine there are no catholics, protestants, etc... the way it is suppose to be. So someone walks into the local church meeting and week after week brags about fornicating with many women. This person would be put out of fellowship according to 1 Corinthians 5. The same goes for someone coming in and bowing or praying to a statue every week. If they refused to repent after prayer and exhortations they would be put out of fellowship according to 1 Corinthians 5. Without all the denominations and carnality of modern christendom it is a lot easier to deal with these things But now imagine that those people who got put out of fellowship go and start their own church... and one of them becomes a leader who claims to be Christ on earth - what to do but warn true saints to stay away from it.

2) "One of you said that Rome is the harlot spoken in scripture. "

John Wesley on Revelation 17:5

And on her forehead a name written - Whereas the saints have the name of God and the Lamb on their foreheads. Mystery - This very word was inscribed on the front of the Pope's mitre, till some of the Reformers took public notice of it. Babylon the great - Benedict XIII., in his proclamation of the jubilee, A.D. 1725, explains this sufficiently. His words are, "To this holy city, famous for the memory of so many holy martyrs, run with religious alacrity. Hasten to the place which the Lord hath chose. Ascend to this new Jerusalem, whence the law of the Lord and the light of evangelical truth hath flowed forth into all nations, from the very first beginning of the church: the city most rightfully called 'The Palace,' placed for the pride of all ages, the city of the Lord, the Sion of the Holy One of Israel. This catholic and apostolical Roman church is the head of the world, the mother of all believers, the faithful interpreter of God and mistress of all churches."

But God somewhat varies the style. The mother of harlots - The parent, ringleader, patroness, and nourisher of many daughters, that losely copy after her. And abominations - Of every kind, spiritual and fleshly. Of the earth - In all lands. In this respect she is indeed catholic or universal.

H

hulsey Dec 30, 2012

Hi elias,

The Roman Catholic Church is not the harlot in Revelation specifically. I say that because we cannot limit the vision of Revelation 17 to one system. The harlot church of Revelation 17 is spiritual and is manifested in all denominations. Where ever you find the true bride of Christ the harlot is not far behind. You can find the harlot church in the Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, Home Churches and 'out of church' movements...etc; etc. In these same movements you also find the true bride of Christ.

Personally I believe that the false prophet will be whoever the Pope is at that time and that there is a dangerous ecumenical movement toward a world church that will follow the false prophets teaching. However it is only a masquerade of the unity that is growing in the Spirit amongst the children of God and they are recognizing God's people whatever their denomination. We can't 'expose' every unification as worldly ecumenism because we're offended. I find limited atonement offensive but I don't break fellowship with a Calvinist brother.

I was once told by a Jewish believer that Jews wouldn't begin to listen to us Protestants because of the obvious idolatry in our own churches. Maybe instead of pointing fingers we should take our gift of discernment and point it at our selves.

E

elias7291 Dec 30, 2012

Thanks for your clarifications. Peace be with you all!

R

rainydaygirl Dec 30, 2012

thanks Frank and Jim for the responses. i have some in my family who still are in the Catholic church and have found that when i try to share the truth with them i only make them angry so i have not tried in a long while. i pray for them but i don't feel like i can pray or fellowship with them because in my thinking we do not have common faith.
any way thanks for what you shared, it does help clear things up

rdg

N

narrowpath Dec 30, 2012

I saw the video a while ago, and I find it disturbing.
Call me an angry watchman, but I am grieved for a reason.
This is not a small thing. Carter should know better and as a well respected minister with a world wide reach he is not at liberty with such a lapse. I find it especially sad that TCC who had been such a beacon of light now embraces Catholics as equals in faith. I am all for ministering to Catholics but there can be no cooperation in matters of faith. There are many evangelical ministries that had been wrecked by participating only once in an RCC ritual. There are subtle spirits at work, it is an intoxicating wine.

I too had been lead to Christ by a catholic Charismatic but later on I saw the damage and confusion it caused her to fall into. I do not say that there are no saved people inside the RCC, but how can they remain there once they know the truth?

I am thinking of those many who escaped the error of the Roman Catholic Church. Now they tell then it is ok to stay in the RCC as long as you are charismatic. The RCC has sent and still sends Billions to hell with a false assurance of salvation and is drunk of the blood of the martyrs. This beast has never changed, it just went into a tactical cease fire.

Their communion table is not the table of Christ. The head of the RCC is not Christ.

2 Corinthians 6:14-17
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.