What to do about the law and moral codes

Recently I have come across some who brings up alot of laws in Leviticus and just in the OT that are no longer practiced today. ie, no tattoos, materials clothing is made of, issues concerning woman and that time of the month, etc. These people brought up alot of issues that are not practiced anymore and use them to say that God has ridiculous rules, etc.

This got me to thinking, how do we separate the law and moral code from the OT to translate that to today?

Many people say they want to live a scriptural or Biblical life and that would include the OT and if so why would these OT laws not be practiced? Otherwise a person would have to say they are living by the New Testament and not the whole of the Bible, Correct?

How do we determines what is absolute in God's view and what is not v. picking and choosing according to our own likes and dislikes? This tends to become a big contention in nontheist arena's and I think it brings up valid points. Study to show thyself approved.

John

We live a new covenant life and no longer under old covenant. Under new covenant we keep the requirements of the law and not the actual law. In OT all laws except do not covet is totally external. And the blessings that they got from god was also external like wealth, decedants etc. But the standard we live under new covenant leads to internal purity that was impossible in OT even to the prophets. The blessings that we inherit are as well internal like overcoming life, eternal sonship etc. Jesus and apostles who were approved by god in NT were all not rich, but were might in their internal testimony for god.

Jesus called those who kept the external laws deligently as white washed tombs, because their inner life was dead. This inner purity is possible only through the grace that we have in Jesus. We cannot have it by following any law. Jesus said if the inside of the cup is clean then outside gets cleaned as well. Our standard should be much higher than anyone ever who lived under law say Moses or Abraham. All the teachings of NT are all internal like not to lust in heart, not to get angry, to love even those who hates us etc.

Well, John, have you ever studied the OT law? May I suggest you do so and while doing it, imagine what life/culture looked like under that system. Now compare it with current life. It will be helpful to understand the OT law has three 'sections' - it may take a discerning reader to be able to understand these distinctions. Anyhow, there is the Religious law that details how the sacrifices were to be performed, how and when, etc. There is the civil law that deals with government. Then there is the moral law that deals with culture, like marriages, morality, sanitation, cleanliness, etc. You will find that moderns are [ignorantly] upholding many of these principles but have no idea where they originate from.

Consider: we benefit much from the law detailing the disposal of body wastes - it is the civil law of the USA. These sanitary laws are enacted to promote health in its citizens. Now consider where you have people deficate anywhere nature calls. What is life like in those places? We have friends who live in Bangledesh. People there urinate, deficate anywhere in public. The wastes lend to the stench that permeates the cities. It is everywhere - you have to be careful where you walk lest you step in it. Our friends are totally grossed out by it.

So is it sin to deficate without burying your wastes? I suggest "no" but you better be careful with it lest you put another in harm's way. There are many laws like this that serve to promote cleanliness, health and an orderly society. God is a clean God. :-) So how can one discern which violations are sin and which are simply a matter of failing to do good? What do you think?

ginnyrose

I have done only some study of the OT in the past. What I did not have with me is an aid in understanding and applying it so that it makes sense. As a result I come across some arguments in which I really don't know the answer to or how to explain it so that it makes sense to our 'modern' mind.

I am in a time of my life where I am going through a kind of sifting process in my heart and my mind. In this case I am meditating ALOT and praying with that in my conscious subconscious and seeking to renew myself in the Spirit, to prove that this renewing is authentic and not something I am doing myself as well as being able to answer those who make fun of things in the Bible because they lack understanding. Does that make sense? Call it sort of an act of critical thinking. Some of the posts I make on here is part of that process/path.

This is why I ask about the OT. It seems to me that we should be referring to the OT for its history and legacy of the past but but abide by it for moral codes/conduct. If this is correct is this because of the Jesus Factor? Ginnyrose, you mentioned it was a different time back then, does this then suggest that in that time it was a different culture and as every culture comes and goes a different code should be applied? Does absolute truth have no place in this area? This is something I am wondering.

btw, just a little note. I my quest adventure I was introduced to something that I think was of God that blew me away from the inside. Not sure how it translates to the outward. I want to share it here and get your perspective. I have come across some who say they are rationalists and among their arguments against God and even the OT is the thought of talking donkeys or animals for that matter. Rationally that is ridiculous yet how many times have we ever seen a story in which some animal blurted out 'Momma''Dadda' or something else? Maybe the animal was coached or learned as a baby learned. Either way it is irrational that an animal would speak like that and youtube even shows some of these animals doing it. Applied to the OT , the events with animals today reveal what could have been done in the OT and for God's own purposes. That can seem as an irrational thought but tying today's animal talking to that the rationality doesn't seem so distant. This comes across much more amplified on the inside of me than I can put in words but I hope you get my point? Let me know what you think.

John

Thanks ginnyrose for your perspective. It is a good point you make.

Before Jesus, did Israel have any way or hope for inner purity?

Matthew 13:17-For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

The above verse clearly tells us that the Prophets longed to see the days of Jesus and wanted to hear what the disciples heard. They clearly saw the standard that we are called for and longed to live under it. But they could not live because the Holy Spirit was not given to them.

John 16:7:-But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the [c]Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

So the days we now live with the helper (Holy Spirit) inside us is equally or even better than the days of Jesus on earth. Because if Jesus was on earth he could be only at one place and not with everyone, but Holy Spirit can be with believers all the time.

Your arguments of OT traditions for better living is also applicable for other religions. For example I was born and brought up as a Hindu till I was 25. There is a book called 'meaningful Hindu religion' which talks about similar things. One such a thing is Hindu's in India wash the front of their house with cow dung and it is believed and followed as a law. Now the scientific point behind it is cow dung has ability to prevent germs from entering the house.

Colossians 2:20:-If you have died with Christ [x]to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” (which all refer to things destined to perish [y]with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abaseent and severe treatment of the body, BUT ARE OF NO VALUE AGAINST FLESHLY INDULGENCE.

Such external laws and external purity can never give us freedom from our fleshly desires that are against the ways of God.

Since I came to Christ with no clue of Bible, I read the New Testament first and then once I went back to read the old I could clearly see it as a mere shadow of new Covenant.

John, you are asking good questions - I sure wish Ron Bailey would come on and answer them...or maybe Armkelly - I think he comes from the family of Abraham.

About animals talking - Balaam's donkey carried on a conversation - it responded properly to Balaam's answers. An animal that can 'speak' today is one that has been taught to do so, is not one that can carry a conversation. But the fact that non-humans can say words that mimic human's is interesting but does not mean they are communicating as we understand it. Some scientists are experimenting with primates and they think they are learning to get them to communicate as we understand it, but this still comes from training, something Balaam's donkey lacked.

The OT law was given early on in the life of the Israelite family. What laws were in force before then I would guess hark back to what was in force after man's fall. We do not know what those civil, moral, religious laws looked like other then they knew that killing was wrong. I suspect they reflected the ten commandments because God says he does not change. I also suspect that all succeeding cultures are a perversion or knock-off of OT law as revealed to Moses, including the Hindu religion.

God was before any philosopher came along and worked to work out a code of ethics by which man can have an orderly society. Since God knew man's inclinations, he gave them a code of ethics by which man can exist and multiply without killing each other or themselves, hence the laws that deal with sanitation or how to deal with conflicts between persons.

The OT law was given to point people to Jesus, to demonstrate their own sinfulness but showing how holy God is and that man cannot achieve perfection on his own merits. This is the fundamental point of the OT religious law.

As I am going through the book of John I am becoming more aware of how Jewish the book really is. Somehow I suspect it takes a person who was raised a Jew to more fully appreciate its message. However, if you do study the law and work to understand it then John makes a whole lot more sense as does the law.

Ravi Zacharias shares an insightful argument as to why people resist God. He says, "Is it possible that somewhere in the deepest recesses of the human heart, we are really not battling intellectual ideas as much we fighting for the right for our own sexual proclivities and our passionate indulgences?” Perhaps this is the case with those who want to argue philosophically about God?

When I was a counselor at a Crises Pregnancy Center, I had only one client who did not know that immorality was sin, at least this is what she said but she was a person who was mentally deficient. People love to sin, it affords them a lot of pleasure. In order to justify their sin, they have to discredit God and his authority over life, over how to behave. In turn they will work to be ever so 'good' and will love to share with you how good they are. This has been my experience, does it reflect yours? Since this is the case, what would happen if you would zero in on their guilt and deal with it? Apart from God, man cannot understand the deeper things of God nor how he works in nature, in people. Seems tome this is the heart of the issue...

God bless. I hope you succeed in your quest for a deeper walk with the LORD. This is an exciting adventure! :-)

Wonderful testimony, lesmanto. (Except I grew up with hogs and I still love pork! :-))

It is my understanding the reason the WORD states what God desires to see in his people is so that we can check with the WORD to get affirmation of what we are sensing in out spirit. There are many who say such and such and there is no scripture to substantiate it but do declare they are being led by God. How can one discern? It is the WORD. True, the WORD does not tell us everything, but the principles are there to teach us how life is to be lived and how the Holy Spirit would lead us to do - whatever.

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"Seems like Jesus just changes everything inside and out when He lives in you."
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True. Reminds me of a quote made by Jesse Yoder: "maturity happens when obedience [to God and his word] becomes a joy."

lesmanto
The law is only in our hearts when we renew our minds such as Romans 12:1-2 says. Unless a Christian does this He cannot begin to understand the Mind of God.

The tattoos, it could be said that in the OT one should not do this to their body but as my original post indicates, do we really abide in this? Is this a law we are to still obey? If so why this and not others?

Paul preached both Grace and warning against Sin equally. They coexisted in his teachings but not in yours because your understanding of Grace is incorrect.

1 Thessalonians 4:2:-
For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly WARNED you.

There are so many places where Paul is giving warnings to the Churches. The reason I chose to post only this is here Paul clearly uses the term WARN. If no warning is required then why is he giving all this?

Forget Paul even Jesus himself gives Warnings to 5 out of 7 Churches in Asia in the book of Revelation. He wants them to repent, these are not unbelievers whom Jesus wants to repent but believers.

If your understanding of Grace cannot answer even 1 scripture then it is incorrect. No matter how many scriptures you post to support your understanding, I am sorry it is incorrect.

Now here is where you misunderstood Grace, first of all to be forgiven from our sins is not Grace that we received from Jesus. Forgiveness of Sins was there even before Jesus came to earth. But the word says 'Grace and Truth came through Jesus'. So this Grace is clearly different from us being forgiven by the blood of Jesus.

Grace is the Holy Spirit whom Jesus sent to the true repented and born again believers when he ascended to heaven. Like the verse Titus 2:11, Holy Spirit is given to us to instruct us about the life of Christ and there by bring Christlikeness in us. Still it is only instruction we need to choose to follow it. We need to workout what God is working in us through his Holy Spirit (if we have received him). It is like, I can get admission into the best school in town, but if I choose not to listen then all the best instructions that I get from my teachers go waste.

Holy Spirit is a gentle spirit who will not take away mans freewill to choose his steps. This freewill is a gift that God has given to mankind. If God takes it away from us then he is making us robots who cannot become sons of God. No one can make a robot as his son. Obedience should come out of self will and not out of lack of will. Jesus himself said he came to do not his will but the will of his father. He himself had a clash between his will and father's will but he choose his fathers will. Same is our fight as well. This is the good fight that Paul wants us to fight. Holy Spirit is there to encourage us and instruct us for this fight.

I am not afraid that those who embrace true Grace (Holy Spirit) will sin. Only those who do not repent from their life of Sin will continue living in Sin and will end up in Hell no matter which Jesus they believe.

Yes, and based on what kind of legal platform, that has to be in place at the time, Paul can say things like this:

Ephesians 5:5  For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

To even make this kind of judgment a law has to be in existance, right then and now.

To assume the law Of God and the law of His Spirit have a different will and content and want both different things is just a bit darkened understanding. Just like constantly going backwards and assuming to be lawful is trying to achieve justification, and the opposite of it, being lawless would somehow then have to be tolerated, or is actually what the Spirit wants for us in order to work grace. inconsistency is usally part of any delusion.

While the born-again heart doesn't know anything about this kind of retro thinking and actually enjoys doing the will of God. It's a delight for that kind of heart, because the veil is taken away and the understanding that God's law is His will is no threat anymore, His instructions in righteousness by our heavenly father are now actually appreciated. Just like it happened to David, he also could not deny his heart.

Psalms 40:8  I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Matthew 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

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QUOTE:
"The tattoos, it could be said that in the OT one should not do this to their body but as my original post indicates, do we really abide in this? Is this a law we are to still obey? If so why this and not others?"
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Whenever anyone says anything about tattoos based on OT law they will then refute it by bring up other OT laws that are barely considered today. Like the one of wearing clothing of mixed fibers. Still, the OT law stipulates just balances, scales...Did you know the State Department of Agriculture will come around testing the scales you use in selling? Their weights are accurate to one hundredth of a pound. Do we appreciate their diligence that when someone says there is a certain weight in this package that we can trust that?

About tattoos...a person can argue philosophy about it and keep going in circles. But does tattooing not hark back to some pagan worship practices? AND...do you know what it does to the human body? My sister, who is an RN, likes to talk about a traveling museum that displays human cadavers, dismembered by organs...she said they have some showing what tattooing does to the body. She says it is awful...

NT teaches us that one should not destroy the body, if you do, God will destroy him...

In my understanding of what OT laws are applicable for today is what does the NT say about that law or principle? Some have passed over into the New Covenant, like no stealing, murdering, coveting, immorality, etc. One NT principle is that one should be honest. But do we need laws that spell out how or when one should be honest? Does honesty not arise from within so that it will become a way of life? Perhaps people under the old covenant needed some specifics to teach them how these principles look like where the rubber meets the road.

Yes, studying the OT law gets to be very enlightening - helps me to understand the NT better.

Just a few thoughts...