What is a church?

The thread entitled 'where is the church?' provoked this question again in my mind. What are our expectations for a church? or, much more importantly, what are God's expectations for a local church?If we could establish some criteria it might help us to know whether or not we were succeeding. I hope those who contribute will notice the careful title; not 'what is the church?' but 'what is a church?'

My ideal of a Church? Man I have been thinking about this. Maybe a place where the people are truly grateful for there slavation because Christ is worthy of there praise and worship. A place where you could come in and not feel like you have to find the ones you will fit in with because you are the same as all of them. Where the older and more mature are happy to help and guide the younger. And do it willingly and with out being asked. Where if someone is moved by the Holy Spirit they would have no fear of asking to speak to the body. A place where preachers and teachers from others churches would be welcome and encourged to share there words. Where reaching the lost is THE number one goal of the church sunday worship and wednesday night prayer are prepatory for the job of going into the world as a light and reaching the lost with the Gospel.Well that is my idea of a Church and I believe that a church and the church should not be a discerniable difference.

I always liked the definition that Lars had in his signature here on SI;Church-a definitionEnough brokenness gathered in one place for Life to find an entry for ministry.In Christ,Ron

Brother Philo,I hope that everyone weighs in at least once on this interesting question. For me, the temptation is to answer your question with the ideal and the iconic. First of all I could take the low road and answer what the church is not. The "church" is not a building for public worship, a place to practice the sacraments, or a denomination, or blah blah blah.Next I could take the high road and recite that the church is the "ekklesia", the called out or the summoned group, the particular and distinctive people of God on a mission, being used as God's instrument blah blah blah.. I don't believe these are the kind of answers you were interested in hearing, Ron. It's obvious from your writing that you have already heard all of the triumphant truisms and heavenly hebraisms that I could muster up.Can we find a biblical definition of church that I can touch and serve with my hands? In order for that to be the case this church needs to be made up of real living people not the ghosts of "first century Christians." Are we looking for a benchmark definition here? A showcase composite made up of Joels Army commanded by the Apostles...walking in power across the surface of the earth, tearing down strongholds and casting out demons, our faces aglow with the light of heaven as Stephens face was to the astonishment of a skeptical world? I certainly hear the lamentations for this kind of church today. By the waters of Babylon we sit longing for a church that has vanished.Hopefully any definition of the true church we come up with, however perfect it is, can include us. Not that it should mind you...I just hope it does. By "us" I am thinking of men with mortages and 60 hour work weeks, single mothers with children, teens from violent homes, and other broken vessels. Some with money , some with debt, some with health, and some with cancer. Admittedly, my definition of "us" is certainly very westernized. My point is that I hope our church definition has room for the particular people we know...that's all. Particular people are all any of us ever truly know. Given this, it's interesting that it's these same particular people that have the hardest time fitting in our universalist iconic ideals. Of all the people I've met from Shenzhen to Nuremburg, from Colombo to Paris, from Time Square to Picadilly Circus I have never met an icon.Like I said, I hope everyone takes a shot at this one. In the very least we'll have a portrait of the desires God has placed in our hearts. Blessings.MC

Hey RonEphesians 4:2-16 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.From this text I think the church is an expression of the body of Christ working together for the unity of faith and the knowledge of the Son of God. Every believer has an important role to play and therefore since every member is a part of the body. From this it is seen that the “effectual working in the measure of every part” is paramount to the increase of the body. In this church setting (in my own opinion) there is a channel through which every member can express itself to the whole body either directly or indirectly and there is high level of responsibility in every member to provide “that which every joint supplieth”.Ephesians 5:21-33 21 submitting to one another in the fear of Christ. 22 Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord, 23 for the husband is head of the wife as also Christ is head of the church. He is the Savior of the body. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as also Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 to make her holy, cleansing her in the washing of water by the word. 27 He did this to present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but holy and blameless. 28 In the same way, husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hates his own flesh, but provides and cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, 30 since we are members of His body. 31 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. 32 This mystery is profound, but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 To sum up, each one of you is to love his wife as himself, and the wife is to respect her husband.From this text, the church is the bride of Christ. As it was when Adam was put to sleep (Genesis 2) and he awoke with woman so it is when Christ was put to sleep (crucified) and he awoke with a bride (the church). The church is likewise not a separate entity form Christ, it is literally the body of Christ which derives its existence form him; even as woman is not separate from man (1 Corinthians 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.).1 Corinthians 11: 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of GodIf Adam represents Christ and Eve represents the church from verse 7 we get that Christ is “the image and glory of God” (Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;)We also get from verse 7 that the church was created for Christ even as Eve was created for Adam and that the church is the glory of Christ (John 7:22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one).These verse also line up with the eternal purpose of the Church but maybe we will talk about that later, or I will leave that to someone who is more versed in this matterJames

I believe a church is the practical and spiritual expression of Jesus Christ here on earth in the world but not of the world.As a body we are Jesus in life, as individuals we are Jesus in life.There can be no higher purpose for a church than this.

if "a Church" does not behave like "the church" then it is no church at all. The two can not and should not be separated.

oh and 'the church" should be a people who are about God's business, worhipping Him in spirit and in truth.

Like I said, I hope everyone takes a shot at this one. In the very least we'll have a portrait of the desires God has placed in our hearts.Me too, which is why I am being unnaturally quiet at this stage. Like many teachers when I ask a question it because I 'think' I know the answer. But I'm not lurking to pounce on anyone, and my answer when it comes will be just that 'my answer'.With one or two exceptions the answers are the kinds of answers I was expecting. Please, folks, do have a shot. I trust we are not the kind of people who 'know what we don't like' but rather have some expressible desires for something.

Ironmanif "a Church" does not behave like "the church" then it is no church at all. The two can not and should not be separated.Isn't this a bit circular? What I mean is 'how can the church behave like a church' until someone has decided what a church is.Suppose I said I want you to behave like a 'schlumpf'. What would your first question be? Exactly... which is why my first question is what is a church? When we have decided what it is we should have a better idea of what it is supposed to do. And if we compare what it is supposed to do with what it is doing we shall have some idea of how well we are doing as 'schlumpf'.:-D Some older readers may remember 'schlumpf'. It is a useful word for creating definitions. Instead of the word that everyone knows put in the word 'schlumpf'. We should now be able to define shlumpfl so that someone will say 'oh, you mean...' The problem with 'church' is a longstanding one. Tyndale only ever used the word of heathen temples, preferring the word 'congregation', but the unifying translators of the KJV, under the specific direction of King James, were commanded to put the word 'church' back into the text. James' Rule 3 stated "The ould ecclesiasticall words to be kept viz. as the Word Churche not be be translated Congregation etc."So I repeat my question; "what is a church?"

Hey RonI hope you guys do not mind if I have a second go at this, my favorite topic!I believe that churches are ordained and upheld by the approval of Jesus Christ. Let us consider this:Mathew18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.It is hard to define what “gathering in the name of the Lord” is but I believe the only important definition is that of Christ. If we are gathered in the name of Christ he will be there; that is to say, that Christ’s presence is a mark of, “gathering in the name of the Lord”. I do not believe a collection of people can simply declare themselves to be a church, but it is only when they are truly “gathered in the name of the Lord” that they become a Church. Consider the following verse.Revelation1:20 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches[From this we note that according to the Lord in this instance the Church is depicted by a candlestick. Formerly (verse 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.) we see Jesus walking in the midst. This is the sign of approval that these are in fact churches. If Jesus was not walking in the midst they would cease to be churches. Consider also this verse:Revelations 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.We have already seen that Jesus is he who walks in the midst of the candlesticks. We also have seen that the candlestick is a church. What would the removal of a candlestick mean? It would mean that Jesus is no longer walking in their midst. It would mean that they have ceased to be a church in the sight of Christ and of the Father. Christ is the church, and without him there simply is no church to speak of before God.Christ is the sum of all spiritual things before God, and Christ is the church.Colossians1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Without Christ we are nothing more than a collection of people, no matter what we think we are doing.The individual members in the church are each an expression of Christ in some way, we are a part of him, because it is his Spirit that is manifest in us. His Spirit is manifest differently in each of us hence, we are each a different part of the body, not based on our works and ideas but based on the manifestation of the spirit of Christ. If Christ is a physical body, then every one of us is a different part of that physical body according to how the spirit is expressed in us.Colossians1: 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:Paul call’s this the mystery of the gospel, that our Lord Jesus Christ lives in these temples (our bodies- 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.) and expresses himself through them. We are members of the body by virtue of what the Spirit express through us not simply because the bible says so. If the Spirit is not allowed to express itself then the membership is questionable.To sum up, the Church is an expression of Christ’s Spirit through the individual members of His body.

PhilologosIt has alresdy been decided what the church should be so that is not up for discussion. We as a church should be concerned with whatever it is God wants us to concern ourselves with be it intercessory prayer, praise and worship and just being obedient to what God commands. At the end of the day that is all He really wants. The church is a group of people who are concerned with doing what God requires of them and actually doing those things. Is that a definitive enough definition? Or it is also the body of Christ which does whatever Christ (the head) requires.I must say Schlumpf is rather old school...this is the first I'm hearing of it... :-P

IRONMAN wrote:We as a church... I think that you have answered the question rigth there with that statement. The Church is people - the persons of the Trinity and the people who make up his body.(Rom 12:4,8; 1 Cor 12:12; Eph 5:29,30; Heb 10:5-7)Taken from Dudlel Daniel's manual: Biblical Leadership Part 2

Brother Ron: where you going with this?It's really thought provoking since I see "a" as a singular expression denoting the noun(church----person place or thing) here and was wondering what exactly you see here in your own question after 30 or 40 years of pulpit ministry?

Some years ago I was thinking about this topic and thought about the reference in 1 Tim 3:16. I noticed that in the original the definite article is omitted, twice.. so that it reads "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in a house of God, which is a congregation of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." (1Ti 3:15 KJV)dohzman noted my use of the indefinite article. Greek doesn't have on but the sense is carried if we supply one.I was in the home of a Scottish family and I have always had a healthy respect for the native logic of the young. So I thought I would ask some simple questions of the children of the home.What is a house? Answer: a place to live in and be at home in. Good answer I thought.Who lives is Anna's house? Anna, she said patiently.Who lives is Uncle Ron's house? Uncle Ron, she said, with a suspicious look in her eye.Who lives in God's house? God,of course. she said.Now, can you see where I am going?

philologosso we are talking about the house of God,the church and also of the church then and they should be ideally?

Philo,You have me intrigued now. (I wish I could be more child-like when it comes to God.)Your house picture reminded me of these verses. I hope they are some of the bread crumbs leading us to what is on your heart regarding the church.Jesus said,Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it upLater James, during the momentous Jerusalem Council recalled the prophecy of Amos. After these things I will return, and I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen, and I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord...So we see that there is a new buidling that God is raising where He can dwell... For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.” Though this new tabernacle/temple is His building, it is sobering to think that He may not always feel welcome. For instance to the loveless He warns:Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and (I)repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent. And to the indifferent lukewarm dwelling he graciously pleads, not from within but standing on the outside: Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door,I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.This is not to imply that God's dwelling place is flimsy, wobbly, and ready to collapse unless we strain harder. Instead, having tasted fellowship with God in this dwelling place, we are hungry for a more perfect habitation. For these hunger pangs Paul encourages us:For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.Amen.The mystery in Paul's words is that this building, this house, this habitation is at once both on earth and in the heavens...Blessings.MC

Longing for a true...intention.What did our Lord declare? What did He expect of us as His Church, in actuality that is the only church there is and the only one that should concern us.Our most recent member, Andyz has quite a bit in regards to the house church ideal on his site. Am still reading through a very good article in this regards Houses That Changed The WorldIt has much to chew on and still feels balanced enough in regards to where we have come from to where we are now today. Here comes that word again: "Flux"Painfully obvious that there is a rumbling going on and change is a foot. Think there will be a definition forthcoming as this unfolds in reality. Now the question is, which definition?Glad that I backtracked here:Ron asked:If we could establish some criteria it might help us to know whether or not we were succeeding. I hope those who contribute will notice the careful title; not 'what is the church?' but 'what is a church?'Not entirely sure if this is correct as Ron alluded to earlier in the usage of the word, but trying to apply the principle of 'first instance';Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Wrote this out yesterday and let it stew.Coming back to it again, it seems the issue is of the meaning of "A" or in other words...Where do we 'put these folks'?Again, think the thoughts being expressed in the said article (It is quite long, but relevant) are worthy of some serious consideration.Somewhat in what goes on here in it's quirky cyberspace kind of way seems to have elements of it, 'church', while missing many others, meals, singing...The article makes a good point in regards to size limitations (20 seeming to be about max) and the effects of passive/active style fellowships. The ideas of smaller gatherings with more larger 'celebrations' at different times. Just tossing this all out there. Whatever 'it' becomes I can only hope it is more 'old' than new in the sense of 'modeled' after the Lords intentions.Also what may be helpful is to hear again Ron's experience in his church. From what I recall there were some element's of a more interactive style setting.

MikeI have just read the first 15 points of the article you linked and I think this is the most practical thing concerning the church I have hear in a long time. I do especially agree with the issue concerning size. In a small church we are more likely to have communion not only vertically (with the Lord) but horizontally (with each other). I listened to a sermon by Mr. Katz and I could not help musing similar sentiments as he said, “I remember sitting in one of my first church meetings and participating in the Lord’ supper. I sat in a room full of strangers, with one stranger on either side of me. We were handed a small cup and a leavened biscuit and held up our cup and biscuit waiting for the instruction to begin eating and drinking “together”…although we ingested the food at the same time, it was hardly “together”. Such is the story of modern “communion” and we wonder why we do not touch the glory of God. I do not want to turn this into a complaint post but I would just like to recommend the article brother Mike linked. That is right on target bro! Thanks.James

Mike C writes:And to the indifferent lukewarm dwelling he graciously pleads, not from within but standing on the outside: Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door,I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.