Superficial friendships

Today in our sister's SS class we talked about excommunicating erring, unrepentant members, based on 1Cor.5.

In the discussion it was brought up how too many times this disciplinary action is not taken soon enough. Once it is done, these people throw caution to the winds and go live a wild sinful life, rarely ever coming back in sorrow and repentance.

Then the discussion went to the friendships in the brotherhood, the lack of transparency among us. In short, too many friendships are superficial. There is little closeness that the erring person would ever miss.

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Superficial friendships lack depth, honesty, hearts are not touched nor ministered to. People are held at arm's length.

Anybody else have any thoughts? Insights?

We need the humility to bring ourselves down to the Level of the unrepentant member before applying 1 Cor 5. Self righteous indignation will never help someone in the snare of the Devil, If whomever is going to the member to apply reproving is not willing to pour their own heart out and to reveal to that person their own past humiliating sins and any unconfessed hidden sins of the preasent than they are not in the right heart to reprove that member. as it is written first cast the beam out of your own eye so as to see clearly to help remove the smote in your brothers eye. If you are willing to open up and get real you are more likely to break through to them.

1 Cor ch 5 should hurt those whom are applying it as much or more so than the recepiant, I know for us we are having to apply it to a family member and have had to for 2 years now. it tears us up almost every day.

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QUOTE:
"If we didn't love the sin at some level we wouldn't sin would we? We would be less than honest if we didn't recognise this truth. At the same time there are moments when sin in our lives really grieves us. At those times it is easy to acknowledge these things to the Lord, yet because of the willingness and legalistic hypocrisy of many in authority we are almost never willing to share these things openly."
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I think you are right. When I think of confronting, I am always reminded of my own weakness, imperfections and wonder why should I be the one to approach OR I do know that I will be met with strong resistance and I hate strife...so one backs off but stews in the spirit. The conflict is never resolved but only builds walls and barriers. Then I am reminded of Jesus' words in Matthew when he tells us that we need to act immediately when we become aware of an offense. Instead, we think we need to pray about it a while before doing so...and it never gets done.

QUOTE:
"I rather hang out with drug dealers and criminals. There is more honor among thieves than these fake christians."

Codek, I understand your sentiments....I have experienced the same - they are brutally honest or at least sometimes when it is to their advantage. BUT I would urge you to be very careful in your associations with these people - they can and will drag you down. Not only that, you could get killed. Seriously. Our DIL has a brother that was at the right place at the wrong time. He took a shot that was meant for someone else.

Am sorry you never had a good encounter with a body of Believers. But I still am of a mind the LORD will bring some your way if you are open to it. God bless.

ginnyrose

Applying 1 Cor 5 is not the work of every member of the Church, it is the work of elders who have spiritual authority over the Church. The problem with modern day church in US is they are so much greedy for Numbers and they keep increasing the numbers beyond what a pastor can handle. How can one or even a small group of pastor raise up disciple by controlling a church of 1000+ attendees?

An elder is like a Sheppard who is willing to offer his life to protect his flock from wolf. He is one who is willing to die for the sins of his brothers. To such a person God gives authority to speak about Sin in Church and also rebuke those who are unwilling to repent. The problem with 99% of American Churches is there is no one with such a testimony who can rebuke sin in the Church, why? Because the so called pastors are themselves living in Sin like adultery. How will they be able to apply 1 Corinthian 5 to its members.

Codek,

I've gone through similar issues lately. A few months ago I went and hung out at a bar with an old friend of mine. It was where he was going to be that night and if I wanted to talk that's where I had to go. He was drunk shortly thereafter and even smoked a bowl of weed while we were sitting outside talking. All that being said we had one of the better and more honest conversations I'd had in a long time. It is sometimes easier to talk to people like that because they have few expectations of you and your doctrine. There is no worry that if you open up they will key in on one little doctrinal error while your silently screaming for fellowship. People like my friend don't have the cultural taboos that we have in the Church.

"That's why I'm having these doubts about God cause I'm trying so hard to believe in God and I never meet christians, especially at church."

Again, I've recently been right there with you. We need to be careful that we don't see ourselves as the only ones feeling the way we do. There is no telling how many people in the Church are crying for the level of honesty and vulnerability that you are speaking of. I think we need to be careful with this as our continued presence in churches that maybe aren't where we'd like them to be on this could be the straw that breaks the devil's back. If we all pull out then how will change ever come about? I hope this doesn't sound condemning because I meant it to be encouraging. What you're asking people to be is something that they can't do in and of themselves. It's against our very nature. Please don't look anywhere else than to God and your experience with Him to find validation and assurance. You are surely to be led astray. It's not about them, it's about you. And it's not about you, but about Him.

His Word is true. Look to Him and TRUST Him even when everything seems wrong. That's sometimes when it's the most right. It's in our weakness and insecurity that God is made strong. Trust Him, because I guarantee that He is behind the scenes orchestrating things that will take your breath away. God knows. We don't. He knows what's around the next bend and we can't even fathom. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

A brother in Christ, which should be no less real,
Matt

i attend a decent church, nice people, solid preaching from what what little i claim know of the bible. but i would not say that the people there are close to me. there is a lot of talk about being a “family” but generally speaking no1 in the church knows what is going on in my life. its not that im not open or transparent, its that no1 ever asks or shows any interest. lots of Sunday morning smiles and handshakes, but after church is over everything disconnects and every1 heads out to live their lives. i long for close christian friends, but i think i am the only 1 who duz. perhaps that is the appeal of a sermonindex type forum. superficiality is a real problem in churches i think. they will know we are christians by our love. really? where? not talking about being nice to each other. im talking about where is the deep abiding luv and concern 4 each other. it duznt exist. iv never seen it.

what is even funnier is if i bring it up to christians it always gets turned around in2 being my fault. its never the fault of the church members or anything. i luv that - (i wuz being sarcastic)

The Church I attend for past 3 years is more a family. Church is called the household of God and people who are committed to it are sons and daughters of God. After the meeting we have fellowship lunch every weak. Both during the lunch and after the lunch we discuss about the sermon and how we can practically apply it to our life. Most of us are open about our day today struggles in our Christian walk. We also share our prayer requests that will be addressed in our prayer meet and sunday fellowship. We meet at least 2 or 3 hours after our Sunday meeting and Lunch to discuss God's work in our life. Food is normally made by families that volunteer every week. There is no Pastor but only elders who are appointed by Zac Poonen who oversees our Church, just like how Apostle Paul did. Elders do not get paid, but have their own daytime work to support them.

There are few things that can go wrong even in this completely biblical Church. Legalism can easily creep in because of too much exposure to fellow brother's life. For example a brother who does not believe in celebrating Christmas can get offended when another brother who celebrates it for the sake of entertaining their children. It takes prayer and work of the Holy Spirit to bind people together. It is impossible to sustain any fellowship with human love.

sree, in sum of the churches i have attended including the current church i attend those things DO happen, but only if u r part of the 'in' crowd. churches seem 2 have trouble welcoming people in2 their church. often times i feel like the new kid at school. if sum1 is well known in the community or has a great job and a fine car they seem to get welcomed in2 the fold a lot quicker. if sum1 walks in that is not important and no1 knows who they r they get their hand shook by the greeters, but thats about it. no1 talks 2 them. i experienced this sunday night visiting a local church 2 hear a guest preacher. not 1 single person talked 2 me. not 1. yet all i heard was how welcome the visitors were and that this was a friendly family of a church. i dont know. i didnt feel it. and this happens all the time. not just picking on that church.

that makes sense. thanx 4 writing that.

We as Christians can possibly discipline ourselves to act in a "caring" manner, but it should really be a natural response of the Holy Spirit within us. Looking at Acts 2 I think unity is one of the first signs of the presence of the Holy Spirit:-

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. Acts 2:1-2

Inversely, the lack of unity and genuine care for others should be the first warning sign that we are drifting from His presence. And that's what should be fixed, the rest will follow.

PassingThru

a lot of it could have to do with legalism. we have this picture in our head of the perfect christian and anything less than that is unworthy. so we fake it, put on a mask and walk in2 the church building. we would be horrified if those in the church knew what we were really like, or what we struggle with. that duz not bring about transparency. it duz the opposite. 4 those outside it only reinforces their view of christians being hypocrites. we r all a bunch of doctor jeckyls and mr hydes. how about we all admit we blunder and make mistakes and struggle w/sin? we lose our tempers, we cuss when sumthing goes wrong, we sing along w/ nonchristian songs once in awhile, we lust, and the list goes on. and then we hate our sin and hate that we do those things. and then we turn around and do them again.

god's grace is all we have. it is enough! its all we need.

sree, in sum of the churches i have attended including the current church i attend those things DO happen, but only if u r part of the 'in' crowd.

I agree, that is why I said in my previous post, our unity in not in the system that we follow (no matter how biblical it sounds). It is based on our dependency in Holy Spirit to unite us in 1 spirit.

Even in our fellowship, I see new comers every reluctant to be part of our fellowship lunch. Most of those who do not partake in the lunch are not committed to the Church. They either stop coming after few weeks. We invite them to eat with us but they reject the offer and often the excuse they give sounds lame.

when I first attended my father-in-law's Church of similar format in India, I felt aloof during the meeting. But during the fellowship lunch, I had great time sitting and eating with people most of whom were poor and daily laborers of very less educational background. They did not understand my testimony which I gave in English but conveyed that their spirit was so encouraged by what I said. I felt so connected with them.

Jesus said in John 12 -I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed.

It is the responsibility for every grain to die to be part of a bread which is Body of Christ (Fellowship). To die means to stop expecting people to treat us in a different way. Our only requirement should be from any fellowship - 'Is Jesus Glorified?'. If Jesus is not glorified then what am I going to do with a fellowship that greets me and treats me well? If Jesus is not glorified then what am I doing with the numbers they boast about?

Hi, I have not read some of these long posts, but did read yours and I can relate to your experiences. I want to give you some practical advice:

join a small group within the church such as a bible study, home fellowship, etc. Maybe a mens group. Volunteer to help out in some capacity, then you will rub shoulders with some others and really get to know them. Go to the pastor or a leader of the church, express your need to help,say what your interests are, and see if he can plug you in.

I only got to know people by these methods. People generally do not start up conversations easily in church, or after church. They have people they need to talk to that they see once a week, then they leave. This is our culture that we live in.

I even went to a pastor one time when I was new, and asked him to introduce me to some other single people my age that I could fellowship with. He did just that, and I clicked with one of the women, and we became friends.

Try any of these, and see what happens!

If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another. This is the answer. I've been reading Calvary Road again by Roy Hession. I'm reminded that if I don't take off my mask and let people see who I really am there can be no fellowship with me. Our churches have become a place where people feel unsafe taking off the mask. One reason is so many false converts in our churches , another is too few examples of brokenness and transparency. The problem of fear of being known increases as the people in the church struggle with worldliness as they don't want others to see their ongoing fight against sin....this perpetuates it further because darkness breeds lust.

People really do want to be known and accepted, but they are afraid of being known and are convinced that in their true condition being known can only equate to rejection and humiliation.