Problems with a fairy tale future tribulation

This whole mess of a future "Great Tribulation" is a fairy tale that is full of assumptions.Has anyone really taken the time and to see where this doctrine originates? Without consulting Grant Jefferies, Hal Lindsey, and Jack Van Impe, just to name a few of the phoney's that are out there. It's origin comes from Daniel 9:26-27. Which in truth is speaking about Jesus Christ and not some future anti-christ.John said that there would be many anti-christ that have "gone out from among us". These false teachers have inserted a 2000 year (and counting) gap, that isn't anywhere in scripture.When you hear the Angel speaking to Daniel after Daniel was offering up supplication for his people Israel, because the time of their 70 year release was at hand from Babylon, God gives another set of times in the form of 70 weeks instead of years.70 weeks x 7 days = 490 years. Now every bible student agrees with this number so there is no dispute.We can know the times from history if we carefully study it. The Angel said to Daniel, "From the going forth of the commandement to messiah........." would be a certain amount of weeks.Now this commandement went forth by decree by Cyrus king of Persia IIChronicles 36:22-23.Now friends, please understand that the Old Testement is not in chronological order, they are displaced. I have been told that Reese's chronological bible is most accurate in placing the books in their proper order. (which reminds me I need to get a copy).The timeline in the book of Daniel in regards to the resurection is accurate we can trust it, why is that we have to see it with our natural eyes in order for us to believe it. The kingdom of God resides in us, yet we still look up into the sky, and yet God sticks closer than a brother, why? Because He is in us, how close can you get, eh?I said that to say this, since we are looking for a literal kingdom to fall out of the sky it is difficult to believe that the king of the universe lives in men and He calls man the kingdom of God.That is why we still build temples and elaborate churches our eyes are still fixed upon something that is tangible, yet the scripture plainly say that those things that we do not see are eternal and not that which we see.It is you and I that should be ornate and beautiful, building one another up on your most holy faith, praying in the holy Ghost.Without consulting the soothsayers of bible prophecy, can someone please share with this forum where in the bible that there is a 2000 year gap between the 69th week and the 70th week?Karl

What say ye, Karl, of the book of Revelation?

I shall pray for you Karl. You presented a post that cannot even be taken seriously because you sinned at the beginning of it. You might be right and you might be wrong or both in your thoughts that you posted....but what is important is you over look the sins that come out of your mouth and harbor in your heart. It matters not if your wisdom is correct or not or somewhat....when sin comes out of a person's mouth .... it harbors in the heart. And the salvation of a person is more important than any wisdom that will pass away.May God show you your heart this day. I love reading your thoughts .... though I agree or not agree....it does not matter. It is a Sin to talk bad about people and name their names....and you have done so proudly. Might I suggest you ask forgiveness and then write these people down on your daily prayer list? I have prayed for you. And while you are at it...write my name down too...so that I may not perform the same sin in the future. ThanksPJ

My dear brother, What on earth are you talking about?I ask the LORD many times a week to search my heart, in fact I just started asking Him that my mind would flow with His, or that He would somehow effect my decisions in every way possible.I have more problems than you know, but when my Father took on that task to clean me up, He was in for the long haul.I believe I am where I am supposed to be in Him, I can't go beyond that unless I turn back into perdition, then that is sin in itself, (been there done that).If your referring to the way that I had called Grant Jefferies, Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe phoneys, from the standpoint that I stand with bible prophecy, yes they are spreading a fairy tale doctrine that didn't originate from the bible, it was formed thru assumptions by crafty men in the form of disspensationalism.I wish that someone would please take the time to read the first Chapter of Revelations and see that the book is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto HIM (Jesus), to shew unto his servants (called out ones) things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS........"John wrote down things that HE HAD SEEN (past), and THINGS THAT ARE (present) and THINGS THAT SHALL BE HEREAFTER (SHORTLY will come to pass). So when we read the book of Revelation, we need to take in consideration that which is PAST, that which He was referring to be in the PRESENT and that which was SHORTLY coming to pass.In our present day, everyone is throwing the whole book into the present circumstances and the future.Now let me tell you about David Wilkerson's book the Vision. He had a revelation back in 1974 and that book is now fulfilled. Christ gave John a message that was shortly to come to pass 2000 years ago and according to most it still hasn't come to pass.I think we need to quit reading the newspaper or watching the news looking for end time prophectic messages that might refer to the revelations or Matthew 24 Rexella van Impe will do that for us. Remember John was in the SPIRIT and was taken UP, wherever UP is. Which means that what he saw in the Spirit is spiritual and needs to be interpreted.When a message is given in tongues, should not it be interpreted? if not let that person be quiet.I would highly recommend anyone who is seeking for a better understanding on the last days, to go to www.lightofthecity.com and look for the audio page on your left. "last days" You WILL be convinced! If the links don't work, I will gladly send the message to you via email, just as me for it. I can feel the urgency in the writer of Revelation when he wrote ch 1 v3 "Blessed is he that readeth and they that hear the prophecy of this book, and keep those things which are written, for the TIME IS AT HAND.I sincerely covet your prayers brother, I only want to know His ways, so please pray that I know more of Him. I don't believe that I have much wisdom or knowledge, though I have prayed for it for many years, but the more I know Him the less I know of anything. (it's very humbling) Bible prophecy used to be cumbersome and awkward, because there was too many problems with the way I believed it being a Post Tribber.But now that I see it in a preterist view point, I see Jesus in a brand new light, in fact I see Jesus in all the scriptures. If anyone wants to know more about the end times THEN, 2000 YEARS AGO, you can go to www.planetpreterist.com or www.mikeblume.com from an Apostolic point of view.This way is the correct way, and if it causes division, then so be it, it needs to be told. If it was trivial and it was causing a division, then I would abandon it immediately for the sake of unity. But because I know it to be true, then we'll let the truth seperate.Karl

Your original message was edited, as I can see. I am sincerely thinking about your advice. I can agree with you to a certain degree, yes we should be causious in NOT revealing names that might offend others.But for the sake of false teachings, should those names be revealed? So that others would be warned.Umm...For example, Hal Lindsey in his prophectic warnings in the 1980's had the church and the world in a tail spin. His book "the late great planet earth", 1980's countdown. The flurry that those books caused it was unbelievable, he sold millions.When the world is in turmoil, which it was then because of the Soviet Union and the United States, many jumped on the band wagon of prophecy and capped on the dividends. When everything cools down, you hear less of that stuff. When the war in the gulf started everyone jumped on that band wagon again, then it died down. Then the second invasion into Iraq every body is now on this kick about the rebuilding of Babylon. But according to the prophecies that brought her down so long ago, she became a desolation and a waste land to this day. She will never rise in her former glory for that head of Gold no longer sits on the shoulder of those former governments for they are all been brought down to ruin.What stands today is the Rock (Christ Jesus) that was hewn out of a mountain without hands, that was cast upon that statue which caused it to break in pieces, and they were thrown to the wind and no place was found for them. And that Rock became a Great Mountain (Our Mount Zion) and it filled the whole earth. But here we are 2005.We think we have it all together, there are things that are not even written in the bible that would knock our socks off when told.For,"He revealeth the DEEP and SECRET things; He knoweth what is in the darkness and the Light (Jesus) dwelleth with Him. Dan2:22Brother your o.k. I appreciate your input, when I am replying to your message, keep in mind that I am not just speaking to you but to all.Karl ;-)

Brother Mike, We can't all just have opinions, how can any of the things that we hold true be solid, if all we have are opinions?There is nothing wrong in being adament and a bit obstinate on those things that we hold to be the truth, even you can agree with that, for even your posts give a strong impression that what you hold as the truth is more then just a mere opinion.And thank God that we do.The quote that you had placed regarding my ignorance regarding Wisdom and Knowledge was not suggesting that I don't know anything, but rather I was sharing with any like minded saint that as we become less and less and Christ becomes more and more it seems that what we know in the ways of Wisdom and Knowledge I don't know much of anything. At one point in Paul's ministry in Phi 3:7-8 he counted what he had gained in the past to be dung. I truly pray that you understand this in that light.But as regarding the Parousia of our LORD Jesus Christ, as this is what we are talking about, I know that by believing this way I am been heralded as a heretic. But let me say this, I wish that I grew up believing this, because it has taken much considerable time and study to change my view point, as now that I look back at what I used to believe in a Post Tribulation Rapture teaching, and how foolish I was to believe in such superstitions and fairy tales. When you consider Daniel 9:27 yourself, Where is the 2000 year gap between the 69th and 70th that today's bible teachers teach us at? Where do they get such a number and incert it between those years? And why is the "he" an Anti-Christ? Why can't it be Jesus Christ who came to "Confirm" the covenant with many for one week the final week of the 70 weeks that was determined, the week that He was cut off in the middle of. The one who caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and because of the overspreading of abomination He (Christ) shall make it desolate. God sent Israel into captivity for 70 years according to the word of Jeremiah, God had no problem with keeping time. They stayed in Babylon for exactly 70 years. Daniel knew that 70 years were just about up so he goes to prayer and God sends an Angel to tell him about the 70 weeks that was to be their end even to the consummation. But the Angel gives them a key when all this prophetic message of the 70 weeks would begin, it would begin from the going forth of the commandement to rebuild Jerusalem. In Which Cyrus also called Artaxeras gave the proclamation for the Jews to leave Babylon and to go back to rebuild. God moved upon Nehamiah and Esra to rebuild the wall even in troublous times, as you can read in thier books that they were having constant trouble building the wall. From that time to 69th week there would be a series of event that Daniel unfolds when you read about the king of the south and the king of the north, these were document in the books of the maccabeas. But God gave Daniel this time line because He was going to be silent for a space of 430-90 years, no prophet from God was going to be heard of during this time. The next time we hear of any prophet that comes on the scene was John the baptizer.When Jesus came on the scene, thus the 70th week begin to unfold. I won't dispute whether It started at His birth or when the Kingdom of God descended in bodily form like a dove and lighten upon Him. But I will add this that the law and the prophets were until John after that the Kingdom of God was preached. It suggests to me that before the 69th week is the law and the prophets and after John begins the 70th week. God has no problem bringing an age to an end.This an exhastive work, but well rewarding, as it reveals Christ in every detail. Thanks for your post, I enjoyed writing this.Karl

Thank you for your input, I went to the site and read the preface and I gathered from that what his views were. Mind you I tried to read the text, but I get easily bored when swallowed up with much theological jargon. Simplicity is where it's at for me. Thanks again.Karl

Karl,From your posts, "simplicity", God available to everyone without need of an intermediary, your view that Revelations is not in the future, you sound like a Quaker. What is your faith?Bubbaguy