Enraged at un-repentant sinners

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Spitfire Mar 6, 2005

I am soooo angry. My prayers have been really intense lately. I've asked God to teach me to think like he thinks and so much has changed in my thinking. But, yesterday I had something happen, and it angered me so much I can't stand it! It seems to me that how I am looking at this situation is how God thinks, but maybe I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, then, I don't know how I'm ever gonna get right! Because, I feel so strongly about this. See if you guys can help me, please.I have a young girl who comes to me very regularly for counsel. She is about 22 years old. I met her when I was attending a church that I attended for about 7 years. I met her about 2 years before I left there, so I have known her about 5 years. She is a product of the foster care system. She was in foster care from the time she was 12 until she turned 18 and was released from the system. She had been sexually abused by her mother's boyfriends from the time she was 4 until she was taken from her mother at age 12.For some strange reason, this girl really likes me. She now calls me her spiritual mom. She lives alone in a low rent apartment. She supposedly got born again about a year ago even though she has been in and out of churches the whole time I have known her. I knew she wasn't born again all that time, because her life wasn't changed. She has serious issues which she ignores my counsel on. When I first met her, she had come to our church at age 16 saying she was pregnant. She supposedly lost the baby to miscarriage. Others at that church began to try and disciple her. She wound up pregnant again. Miscarried again. Finally, after 3 times, the leadership of that church came down hard on her and she left. I had already moved on from there. So, she followed me to where I am now. She wound up pregnant a 4th time and that's when I knew she wasn't changed. I began to be really blunt and confrontive about her "game" she was playing with everyone. I even wrote on here one other time about my frustration with this girl. She wants pity. And worse than that, I think she just wants to have a baby. Her pain that she seems to have is never about her sin, it's always about having lost the baby.Now, here is what I am mad about. She is pregnant for a 5th time! I have been attending a small fellowship in a nearby town recently which meets on Saturday evening. She called me on Friday to see if my daughter and I were going to be there. When I arrived last night, she ran over and said, I have something to show you. I said ok. She said, "Can I show you now?" I said ok and we went outside. I thought she must have something in her car. When we stepped outside, she handed me two positive pregnancy test. I was just standing there holding these two things in my hand and not quite sure what was going on. She was grinning from ear to ear. I said, "Are you pregnant?" She said, "Yes, I've been wanting to tell you, but I was afraid to." I said, "what are you afraid of?" She said, "I was afraid of what you would think." I said, "you know what I think", and then I went back inside. I didn't say anymore about it the rest of the evening. I had to process it all.As my daughter and I drove home from the meeting, my daughter asked me if this girl told me she was pregnant. I said yes. She said, "Well, what do you think about that?" I said, "I hope she loses the baby." My daughter was agast. She said, "Mother! Don't let anyone hear you say that!"I tell you, I am so angry! I'm angry at her fakeness. I'm angry at her audacity. I'm angry at her selfishness, and I'm wanting to completely disfellowship this girl. I am wanting to go to every Christian that I know who knows her and try and form a unified front of disfellowship. I think that's what needs to happen to this unrepentant sinful fake Christian. If how I feel is wrong, then somebody needs to send me down a chute to hell. Sincerely, Dian.

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crsschk Mar 6, 2005

With the expected misunderstanding forthcoming, the principle behind this seems warranted:1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. There seems to be a couple of different things going on and am feeling more and more at a complete loss to give some kind of proper expression...But one is certainly this:Mourning and grievous comes to mind as well. Need to carry this over into another topic.But as it relates here there certainly seems to be a growing rebellion of this sort, a stubborn refusal to give up our rights to ourselves, to our thoughts, to our pride, to 'our opinions' (speaking of, can't help but wonder, is this the fruit of an easy-believe-ism?) ...sigh. Sadly, I think you are right, if we are to follow this admonition above it has come to this point of dis-fellowship with grief. That the Lord may grant the gift of a broken and contrite spirit, repentance.The hope producing what followed later on:2Co 2:4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you. 2Co 2:5 But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. 2Co 2:6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. 2Co 2:7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. 2Co 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. 2Co 2:9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. 2Co 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; 2Co 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

sermonindex Mar 6, 2005

Spitfire,I can understand why you must be "Spitting Fire" at this point...LOL! But, there are some things that you can consider in her case. I do not know the girl so my advise is purely speculation, so take it with a grain of salt.One certain thing you can consider is maybe, in fact, this girl is indeed an unregenerate, unrepentant sinner who has not yet met the Master. Indeed, if she had, she would truly be a "New Creation" with new desires, "Behold, the old is gone, the new has come." etc. The other thing we can consider is that perhaps she has submitted her soul to its proper overseer but not yet been properly discipled in the faith on how to "offer her body as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God"(and I mean discipleship in the Word, not the "let's stomp the sin out of your life" type of discipleship). But even then she's got to want it.Perhaps, considering her life as an abused child and foster child, she has not ever really known what true love is, nor has she known true acceptance. Though now, if she is a Christian, she is accepted by God, then maybe she doesn't fully understand the heighth, depth, and breadth of that Love and acceptance. Perhaps, she sees other women getting tons of attention and approval at church when they are pregnant and so therefore she sees that as a vehicle for attention and approval. Perhaps she feels that sexual love from a man is representative of true love.I speak somewhat from experience, because my wife was sexually abused by her father for several years as well as being beat by him like a man would beat another man. So, I have dealt with these types of issues in believers before. My wife was in a relationship, similar to the relationships of this girl, subsequent to leaving her house at the age of 17 and prior to meeting me. She was a Christian and having sex with a boy for about 7 years and didn't marry but didn't get pregnant. She tells me now that she thought that this boy really loved her and the sex was the only thing that connected her to him in an intimate way. All women long for intimacy and will seek it out one way or another. Normal women wait, find a husband, marry, then have intimacy with him. This girl is abnormal and does not understand true intimacy and Love. It is up to us in the body of Christ to demonstrate that Love to her, not just talk about it and teach it. I am also sure that you probably have tried to model that love for her (much to your dismay) but you are also only human and can only bear with so much. Answers, I have none really other than this, "So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?". I realize that I am taking this a little out of context but it does apply here I think. We must realize that it was God's unrelenting patience that led you and I to repentance. He may also be exerting that same patience in the case of this girl, whether or not she is saved yet. If only we could be like God and have the same patience as he has. I know it's hard. I've had similar relationships that strained equally at my patience. Perhaps this relationship in your life is God's faithfulness to you to develop in you the very fruits of the Holy Spirit. To answer your question though, I don't think you're thinking as God thinks. If she is showing even a flicker of faith I would lead you to this Messianic scripture in Isaiah 42:3 "A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out." Perhaps she is a bruised reed bruised by the experiences of life but she is also a smoldering wick with a spark of faith that is smoldering and showing a little smoke or fire. We must not snuff it out my Sister! We must fan that flame and blow on it and nurture it until it burns brightly!You may be feeling responsible for this girl which also could be the source of your anger. If so, my advise is to relinquish "responsibility" for her back to the Lord and overseer of her soul. He will be faithful to her initial prayer to "grow her up". That is not your responsibility and it will also free you up in your spirit to love her where she is and not become angry and imbittered over her sinfulness and immaturity. Keep praying for her but also give her up in prayer to the only one who can help her really.The last thought I have is that perhaps this 5th child will come full-term and perhaps it will be the best thing that has ever happened to her. Whether the father of the child marries her or not, this child may be the very "means of Grace" in her life that will sober her up and cause her to mature quickly. Much like a divorced person who sobers up and realizes that everything that brought about the divorce may have been wrong and sinful but also realizing that God was in it all the time and was working to "grow them up" in the faith. God did not cause the sin but soveriegnly worked out the end of the matter to the betterment of the Saints involved. Just some thoughts, I hope they have been helpful. If you can't find Love for her somehow, however, I woud break away from the relationship lest she become a stumbling block to you.Sincerely,StevePicky400P.S. As a practicle thought, maybe she just needs to be taught about contraception in the meantime until she matures in the faith.

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philologos Mar 6, 2005

SpitfireThis is a very public forum for talking about counselling, but a word came to mind as I read your post.Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. (Jam 1:19-20 KJV)This is a lesson we seem to have to learn frequently...

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ginnyrose Mar 6, 2005

Dian, I read the replies to your question and I believe they are on target.I worked as a volunteer counselor at a CPC for 15 years and I must say what you described is very common. Your emotions/reactions are normal which likely will not help you any. From my observation I would say this behavior is normal for a person who has not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and is working to get your approval. Perhaps there is an older, a wise person who can help you through this, teaching you how to respond? Or better yet, seek the direction of the Holy Spirit on how to deal with her. In any case do not allow her to manipulate you.Blessings,Ginnyrose

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Spitfire Mar 7, 2005

The last thought I have is that perhaps this 5th child will come full-term and perhaps it will be the best thing that has ever happened to her. Whether the father of the child marries her or not, this child may be the very "means of Grace" in her life that will sober her up and cause her to mature quickly. Much like a divorced person who sobers up and realizes that everything that brought about the divorce may have been wrong and sinful but also realizing that God was in it all the time and was working to "grow them up" in the faith. God did not cause the sin but soveriegnly worked out the end of the matter to the betterment of the Saints involved. You know what? This is what happened to me. At the same time, I'm still trying to sort out how we should deal with people like me. I'm always looking back to the time when I was rebellious and sinning habitually and trying to see what could have been done by some mature saints around me to help me. I don't want to hurt this girl. I want to help her. The question is: what will help? I know you're all thinking prayer, but I have prayed earnestly for her. It seems to me that it has come down to this: she's unrepentant and she continues in her sin and going her own way while faking repentance at times. I say faking repentance, because she never really turns from her sin and turns to God. She has cried bitter tears today because I told her that I will not fellowship with her anymore until she repents. And it isn't like I haven't gone to great lengths to help her understand what true repentance is, either. She has heard the truth alot. She just doesn't respond to it. I really, honestly don't know what else to do.Perhaps my own heart is not right. I'll be spending time in prayer to have better understanding and to sort out the issues that this whole thing is raising in me. Thanks to all of you for your words of wisdom. Some really good input here. Thanks again. Dian.

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Eli_Barnabas Mar 7, 2005

Ephesians 4:26 - "In your anger do not sin."Becoming angry and frustrated is inevitable, however, we must control ourselves as Christians and not sin amid our emotion. Jesus would never do so, and He expects the same.To say that you wish the baby to die is outside Christian grace and not in the mind of the Father! For it is the Father's will that non should perish, and the destruction of babies is a devilish desire as seen in Scripture and history.So guard your lips, your mind and heart, even though the situation is undoubtably exhausting, and do not sin, for Satan wins when he makes another saint stumble.Grace be to you, sister, and God give you wisdom in how to deal with this difficult situation.-Eli

sermonindex Mar 7, 2005

I don't know but I think this is from the Lord for you spitfire. I was reading all the posts in this thread and responses to your quandry and I felt the Lord nudge me to send you this scripture from Galatians 6:1-5."Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, for each one should carry his own load."Specifically the two emboldened parts. Those are interesting dicotomies. "Carry each other's burdens" yet "each one should carry his own load". Perhaps, in your trying to help her carry her burden you are ending up trying to tote her whole load for her. Just a thought.Perhaps, in laying her down, someone else will pick her up and continue God's working with her. I know that it's hard because I sense that even in your anger, you care a great deal for her. Like a daughter.Picky400