faith as a grain of mustard seed or faith as small as a mustard seed ??

KJV
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.

17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith ((as)) a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

21 ((Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.))

Or NIV

16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.”

17 “O unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.

19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as (((small))) as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.[a]”verse 21 ((??))

.

Are these saying the same things ??

If you are asking whether "faith as a grain of mustard seed" is saying the same thing as "faith as small as a mustard seed" I would say, for all intents and purposes, yes.

A mustard seed is small, after all.

You must think they are setting forth different thoughts.

Please tell us why.

I would argue, however, that "unbelief" is very different from having "little faith." I like the KJV version of this passage better, mainly for this reason.

TMK,

"If you are asking whether faith as a grain of mustard seed is saying that same thing as faith as small as a mustard seed; I would say, for all intents and purposes, yes".

I would say, if Faith "Be" the size of a mustard seed!

"I would argue, however, that "Unbelief" is very different from having "little faith". I like the KJV version of this passage better, mainly for this reason"

I agree TMK,

Faith says = I can -- Unbelief says = I can't

Until they tried.

The word kjv translated as (as) or the NIV and NASB translated as (small) is the Greek word:

(wJß)
Transliterated Word (Hos)

Strong's Definition: as, like, even as, etc.

The KING James translates the word (Hos)

(as) 342 times
(when) 42 times
(how) 18 times
(as it were) 20 times
(about) 14 times
miscellaneous 56 times

The New American Standard translates the word (Hos)

(about) 20 times
(according) 2 times
(affected) 1 times
(after) 2 times
(appear*) 1 time
(appeared) 1 time
(effect) 1 time
(how) 20 times
(however) 1 time
(if) 10 times
(just) 6 times
(just like) 1 time
(like) 106 times
(namely) 1 times
(one) 2 times
(same way) 1 time
(seeing) 1 time
(since) 2 times
(size) 1 time
(so) 3 times
(though) 15 times
(way) 1 time
(when) 53 times
(whenever*) 1 time
(where) 1 time
(while) 10 times

Proupapa,

You're quantitaive anaylysis seems to say that less is more, with the exception of like which appears 106 times in the New American Standard translation.

Would it be safe to say that the same applies to the NIV and the NASB? sorry.

All of the verses that talk about the mustard seed

Matthew 13
31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Matthew 17
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Mark 4
30 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?

31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:

32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

Luke 13
18 Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it?

19 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.

Luke ch 17
5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?

8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?

9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.

10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Hey proudpapa--

I am fairly decently educated but I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

What are you trying to tell us?

Are you saying that the word "small" does not belong in the text?

thanks,

TK

Hi TMK

TMK wrote ///Hey proudpapa--

I am fairly decently educated but I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

What are you trying to tell us?

Are you saying that the word "small" does not belong in the text?///

My opinion Is that the word NIV "small" or NASB "size" are not good translations for the greek (wJß)(Hos) and totaly throw off what I personly feel is being taught.

Quote: """My opinion Is that the word NIV "small" or NASB "size" are not good translations for the greek (wJß)(Hos) and totaly throw off what I personly feel is being taught."""

What is being taught?

Yes, proudpapa please tell us what you think is being taught.

Let's have a conversation; if i knew what you were trying to say perhaps I might even agree with you.

TK

Proudpapa,

I don't know exactly what it is that you are trying to say here. I understand that you believe that the word "hoz" should be correctly translated as "as" (even though the KJV translates this same word into other words and phrases in other than "as."

I think that it would be helpful to look up the 56 other "miscellaneous" renderings of this Greek word in the KJV. Are any of those miscellaneous renderings of "hoz" similar to how the NIV or NASB render this particular verse?

Also, do you believe that the meaning of the passage is changed? How so?

I don't know if you have done this yet, but you might consider contacting the translators or Bible societies (like those involved with the NIV) to ascertain an explanation as to why this verse was rendered the way it was. They might have some helpful insight into why they felt why they felt that their rendering for this word or phrase was best given the sources that they used.

Hi TMK

TMK wrote ///Yes, proudpapa please tell us what you think is being taught.

Let's have a conversation; if i knew what you were trying to say perhaps I might even agree with you.

TK///

I have difficulty with articulating my thoughts, and right now I am recovering from working almost a 24 labourous work day, so my mind is slower than its normal slow self.

But I will try to point out some thoughts that I ask myself when reading this passage, and I look forward to other perspectives and further conversation.

It seems odd to me that The disciples whom forsaken all to follow Jesus Mat.19:27 whom already had been given power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Mat 10:1
whom just came down from the mount of transfiguration Mat. 17 1-9 could be said to not have faith that could measure even upto 'as small as a mustard seed.'

If we use the seed as our analogy by which to describe our measurement of faith, and if we use the mustard seed specificaly for the measurment by which supernatural powers are unleashed and nothing shall be impossible unto us, than it would appear that any faith at all could move a mountain because from the disciples perspective,the mustard seed indeed is the least of all seeds. and if their faith is to be compared to not even measuring up to the size of the least of all seeds, than we would conclude that their would be no seed by which to compare their faith to, thus logicaly it seems that it would appear that no seed means they had no faith, but that is just not reality with those whom had forsaken all and had already been given power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. and of some whom had allready recieved revelation from God that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God Mat.16

But if (wJß)(Hos) is better translated as (as) or mabe (like)
Than we would need to ask our self if the mustard seed has faith?? and if so, how does it?? and how would we relate our faith to needing to be more like unto the mustard seed faith??

Hi proudpapa,

Do you think it possible that the reason that Jesus used the "grain of mustard" is due to the size of the seed itself? After all, earlier in Matthew, Jesus stated that the mustard seed was the "smallest" (NIV) or "least" (KJV) of all of the seeds yet, when planted, grows into a tree (Matthew 13:31-32). It seems that Jesus singled out the mustard seed because of how small it is.

It is interesting to note that the word "seed" is also not found in the Greek in either of these passages but is implied through context enough that the translators of most English versions include it while other languages (like Spanish) do not.

So, in this sense, I don't think that the meaning is "lost" by including the words "as small as" (NIV) or "the size of" (NASB) since the "as" can be construed to mean this anyway -- just as much as the word "seed" is construed in context even through the Greek of this verse does not include the actual word "seed."

As for the 56 miscellaneous renderings of the word "hoz" in the KJV (in addition to the other five words/phrases that the translators of the KJV decided upon for the word), is there a list anywhere for them? From Strong's Greek Lexicon, "hoz" (G5613) is defined as "probably adverb of comparative from 3739; which how, i.e. in that manner (very variously used, as follows):--about, after (that), (according) as (it had been, it were), as soon (as), even as (like), for, how (greatly), like (as, unto), since, so (that), that, to wit, unto, when(-soever), while, X with all speed."

In this context, it appears to be about the comparison. However, this seems to indicate that it is used in various aspects of comparison, including time ("as soon as"). Although I have read individuals who suggest that the passage changes meaning when focusing on the size of the mustard seed in regard to faith, I think that the comparison is due to the size of the seed given the previous reference to "mustard" in the Book of Matthew that specifically mentions the size of the seed itself (Matthew 13:31-32). Otherwise, I suspect that Jesus could have just used the word "seed" or have chosen any other seed from a tree, plant or bush.

While it may seem "odd" that the disciples who had seen and experienced so much up to this point would be spoken to about having so "little faith," it might be worth remembering that these men came to doubts that was exemplified by their actions during the arrest, trial, crucifixion, resurrection and subsequent sightings of Jesus. After all, when Jesus was dying on the cross, how many of them were there?

So, to me, I think that this passage is not only saying that faith can move mountains, but showing us (via a gentle rebuke) just how little faith that we actually have. It reminds me something that Leonard Ravenhill often said about God waiting for men who will actually believe Him and His Word.

It is where faith comes from that is the power of the faith? The mustard does exactly what God intended it to do. It is the amount of Faith that God by the Faith of Jesus Christ in the believer that determines what is to be done with the Faith given to each believer. Faith must be given to each believer by God for each declaration of what God wants to be done. Lest if we had the faith ourselves, we would abuse it and use it for things not declared by God.

Galatians 3:23-26 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

This is the faith that comes from God and brings us to Christ and the Faith that can move mountains, it is the Faith of the Son of God given to us for life in Christ.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Ga 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Ga 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Works cannot move mountains unless it is with something that moves a lot of dirt, it cannot bring salvation, unless work is by the living Word Himself, the precious Seed of The living God, Jesus Christ born again in us, which is by His Faith in us to believe His Work, completed at the Cross, even as the Faith of the mustard seed moves it into a great growing plant that even the birds of the air can make their home in.

Colossians 1:3-5 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

This is the Faith that moves mountains in the heart of the son's of God.

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is the work of the God ordained Faith of a mustard Seed.

In Christ: Phillip

Thank you, PP for your explanation.

I too have had the same questions you have about this passage-- how could Jesus say that the disciples had "little faith," given all they had seen and done?

That is why I like the word "unbelief" especially in the context of this passage.

To me, unbelief is not the same as having little or no faith. Unbelief is bowing to circumstances instead of bowing to the Lord. Accordingly, it is possible to have faith and unbelief at the same time.

In this story, the disciples were confronted with a young man manifesting a particularly violent demon. Now the disciples had already previously casted out demons and rejoiced in their ability to do so. They had faith. But something about the manifestation of this demon must have "freaked them out" for lack of a better phrase. So what there 5 physical senses were telling them trumped their faith. They got under their circumstance. That is unbelief. They hadn't lost their faith, it is just that their faith was rendered inoperable because of what they were seeing.

This happens to us all the time. We have faith in the Lord; we believe He can do great and mighty things. But when a big problem hits, often the last person we turn to is the Lord. We let circumstances dictate to us.

In the KJV Jesus says "this kind does not come out except by prayer and fasting." The question to me is this kind of "what?" I know most people would say he is talking about this kind of demon; but I think in the context of the passage he is talking about this kind of unbelief. Prayer and fasting counters unbelief because it puts our focus on the Lord and not our circumstances.

Consider the context of a similar passage regarding a grain of mustard [seed]:

Luke 17:5-6

5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

I agree that adding the word "small" does not change the intended meaning of Jesus's words.

I think His point was, you don't need much faith-- but you have to have some, and you can't go by feelings or sight-- you have to trust God.

I have to go to work now and not much time to type, but a couple of thoughts

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///It is interesting to note that the word "seed" is also not found in the Greek in either of these passages but is implied through context enough that the translators of most English versions include it while other languages (like Spanish) do not.///

The greek word (kovkkoß) (Kokkos) in the text clearly indicates seed

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///Consider the context of a similar passage regarding a grain of mustard [seed]:

Luke 17:5-6

5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.///

excellent reference and one that I will use in making my point when I have more time, notice the word (but) that begins verse 7 which serves as a connecting word to connect this thought of faith as a grain of mustard seed with the point that Jesus is fixing to make in verses 7-10. meditate on how these 2 thoughts are connected.

Hi proudpapa,

The greek word (kovkkoß) (Kokkos) in the text clearly indicates seed.

The Greek word "kokkos" is for the word "grain." The rendering of word "seed" is merely implied to differentiate it from "mustard" (the tree). "Seed" does not appear in the Greek, but since it is implied, the translators of the KJV included it.

In other translations that are contemporary to the KJV, the word "seed" does not appear. For instance, whereas the KJV renders the passage "a grain of mustard seed," the Reina-Valera Antigua (1569) renders this "un grano de mostaza" (literally "a grain of mustard").

excellent reference and one that I will use in making my point when I have more time, notice the word (but) that begins verse 7 which serves as a connecting word to connect this thought of faith as a grain of mustard seed with the point that Jesus is fixing to make in verses 7-10. meditate on how these 2 thoughts are connected.

It just seems to me that the focus is using a comparison of the size of the seed itself. This would be seem to be in agreement with other passages about the mustard seed in the Bible, such as as Matthew 13:31-32 and Luke 17:5-6.

Matthew 13:31-32 (KJV)

31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Luke 17:5-6 (KJV)

5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

When I read these passages, as well as Matthew 17, I feel that there is some focus on how small a mustard seed is. They also seem to amount to a gentle rebuke from the Lord about how little faith that believers often have when it comes to the guidance, aid and power of God.

How can men have "little faith" so quickly after seeing the miraculous? Well, Peter was literally walking on water to Jesus when Peter's eyes turned off of Jesus and onto the wind. We read about this in Matthew 14:22-33:

31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O THOU OF LITTLE FAITH, wherefore didst thou doubt?

So, in this sense, I believe that the rendering makes much sense.

PP wrote:

"But if (wJß)(Hos) is better translated as (as) or mabe (like) Than we would need to ask our self if the mustard seed has faith?? and if so, how does it?? and how would we relate our faith to needing to be more like unto the mustard seed faith??"

Well, obviously a mustard seed can't have "faith" in the sense that we do, but one could make an analogy that a tiny mustard seed, being created by the Master, has "faith" that it will grow into the largest of garden plants when planted. This is how it was created; it can "trust" in the Lord that this is how it will grow. It cannot do anything apart from the DNA implanted by the Lord.

So, stretching the analogy further, one could argue that "faith as a mustard seed" means that we also need to rely entirely on the Lord, and not on ourselves. So, if that interpretation is correct, Jesus is telling the disciples, in essence, "be like a mustard seed. It has to rely entirely on me. if you rely on me, you can do anything. When you start relying on yourselves, you can do nothing."

Is that what you are getting at, PP? If so, I must admit it is an orginal interpretation. You may be correct, although I am not 100% convinced. But, correct or not, there is still a truth there to be gleaned.

If this is NOT what you meant, forgive me for putting words in your mouth!

TK