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The Magog Invasion: An Alternative View

M
murrcolr Jan 29, 2013

The Magog Invasion: An Alternative View by Chuck Missler

For many years we have been following the conventional view of Ezekiel 38 and 39, the ill-fated invasion attempt of Magog and its allies, notably Iran. With the growing tensions between Iran—as an

ostensible nuclear power—and Israel, these passages are the subject of much current discussion and debate.
However, the conventional view still leaves a number of puzzling inconsistencies and contradictions. Ezekiel 38 indicates that Israel is dwelling safely and “without walls.” Yet, when we visit there we are confronted with a 430-mile-long wall 25 feet high. And being shelled continually with hundreds of missiles from both the Hamas and Hezbollah is hardly dwelling “safely.”

It is also significant to notice that the motivation of the invasion attempt by Magog and its allies is to take spoil: gold, silver, cattle and goods.

1 The Ezekiel account also includes participants from distant lands.

This leaves us with a puzzling anomaly: the players listed in Ezekiel seem to exclude any of the bordering nations: Where are the Palestinians? The Lebanese? The Syrians? The Iraqis? The Jordanians? The Egyptians? The Saudi Arabians? (Sheba and Dedan only appear as spectators rather than as participants!)

It is extremely provocative to contrast the attackers of Ezekiel 38 with the participants described in Psalm 83, which details immediate neighboring combatants. Furthermore, they also have a distinctively different agenda than the parties in the Ezekiel account:

Psalm 83

Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God. For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head. They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance. For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
Psalm 83:1-5

This appears to be a significant difference from the motivation of Magog and his allies, which is to take spoil. These combatants are the immediate neighbors, which continue to harass and torment Israel today and are unabashedly committed to wiping Israel off the map!

Furthermore, the specific players highlighted here are nearby, and not the ones included in the Ezekiel account:

The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes; Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre; Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah. Psalm 83:6-8

Many may be surprised that the identity of the “Tents of Edom” includes the “Palestinians” of today. This is a topic which will be treated in a separate follow-up article, tracing the origin of the hb’yae ~l’A[ olam ebah—the “Everlasting Hatred”—from the womb of Esau and Jacob, and Esau’s contempt of the covenant birthright, to Esau’s spiteful intermarriage with the Ishmaelites, continuing the “everlasting hatred” to this very day.

2 As the Babylonians took Judah into captivity, the Edomites (“Idumeans” in Greek), under pressure from the Nabateans in the east, moved west and established their own “Idumea” encompassing Hebron and environs.

The other members of the Confederation can be easily identified with any good concordance or Bible Handbook.

Do unto them as unto the Midianites; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison: Which perished at Endor: they became as dung for the earth. Make their nobles like Oreb, and like Zeeb: yea, all their princes as Zebah, and as Zalmunna: Who said, Let us take to ourselves the houses of God in possession. Psalm 83:9-12

In pleading for the destruction of their current enemies, the Psalmist appeals to the God of Israel to do just as He did in their historical victories of the past.

O my God, make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the wind. As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire; So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm. Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD. Let them be con-founded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish: Psalm 83:13-17

The Judgment against Edom is mentioned in more Old Testament books than it is against any other foreign nation:

3 (Again, the origin, identity, and destiny of “Edom” will be subject of subsequent articles.)

All the members of the Confederacy detailed in Psalm 83 are Muslims. Each of them is the subject of specific judgments which are detailed in Ezekiel 25 through 32. However, the principal issue of the entire episode is to make a specific point:

That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth. Psalm 83:18

His name alone is Jehovah, not Allah, the moon-god. And the Abrahamic Covenant has not been repealed! If this view is correct, it suggests a very dramatic prelude to the events of Ezekiel 38.

Order of Events?

1. Israel is regathered in the Land (Ezek 37:12; Isa 11:11,12; Deut 30:3-5).
2. Ancient cities are rebuilt and inhabited (Ezek 36:1-5, 8-10).
3. They meet Muslim/“Arab” resistance (Jer 49:16; Zeph 2:8; Ezek 25:12; 32:5; 36:2; Obad 1:10).
4. Israel establishes an army for defense—see also #10 (Ezek 36:6,7; 38:8).
5. Adjacent Muslim nations Confederate (Ps 83:1-8).
6. The Confederacy is committed to the destruction of Israel (Ps 83:1-5, 12).
7. War starts between the Confederacy and Israel (Jer 49:2, 8, 19).
8. Title regained: “My people Israel” (Hos 1:8-10; Rom 9:25,26; Ezek 36:8-12).
9. Israel decisively defeats the Confederacy (Obad 1:9, 18; Ezek 25:13,14; Jer 49:10,20,21, 23-26; Isa 11:12-14;17:1; 19:16,17).
10. Israel has become “an exceedingly great army” (Ezek 37:10; Jer 49:21).
11. Israel takes prisoners of war (Jer 48:46,47; 49:3,6,11; Zeph 2:10,11).
12. The Region is reshaped (Isa 17:1; Jer 49:2, 10; Zeph 2:4).
13. Israel expands its borders (Obad 1:19; Jer 49:2; Isa 19:18,19).
14. Israel “dwells securely” in the Land (Ezek 38:10-12).

This, then, would seem to set the stage for the subsequent events of Ezekiel 38 and 39. If this view is correct, there may be a huge surprise ready to unfold that will totally restructure the Middle East!

“The only certain barrier to truth is the presumption you already have it.” Our challenge is to keep an open mind and study diligently, continually reexamining the numerous presuppositions that tend to blind us all. We are, indeed, entering one of the most exciting times in the history of the Planet Earth! May the Holy Spirit be your personal guide as you continue your “treasure hunt” of searching the Holy Scriptures.

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2010/911/

M
Matthew2323 Jan 29, 2013

The Battle of Gog and Magog
Published on September 8th, 2009 | by Gary DeMar

It’s good to see that someone agrees with me that Gog in Ezekiel 38 and 39 is not Russia: “Gog is not a present or future leader from Russia,” writes Joel Richardson author of The Islamic Antichrist. “Russia is not spoken of in biblical prophecy. Despite all of the hype and discussion that has been devoted in recent years to casting Russia as the leader of a soon-coming invasion of Israel, the Bible nowhere expresses any such thing.” Richardson still agrees with many end-time prophecy writers that “the Bible clearly predicts just prior to the return of Christ that the nation of Israel will enter into a comprehensive peace treaty or ‘covenant’ with surrounding nations. He agrees that the covenant will be mediated by the man who Christians call ‘the Antichrist.’” While Richardson is correct that Ezekiel 38 and 39 are not describing modern-day Russia, he is incorrect that these two prophetic chapters are dealing with modern-day Middle East.

If the battle described in Ezekiel 38–39 does not refer to modern-day nations that will attack Israel, then when and where in biblical history did this conflict take place? Instead of looking to the distant future or finding fulfillment in a historical setting outside the Bible where we are dependent on unreliable secular sources, James B. Jordan believes that “it is in [the book of] Esther that we see a conspiracy to plunder the Jews, which backfires with the result that the Jews plundered their enemies. This event is then ceremonially sealed with the institution of the annual Feast of Purim.”[1] Jordan continues by establishing the context for Ezekiel 38 and 39:

Ezekiel describes the attack of Gog, Prince of Magog, and his confederates. Ezekiel states that people from all over the world attack God’s people, who are pictured dwelling at peace in the land. God’s people will completely defeat them, however, and the spoils will be immense. The result is that all nations will see the victory, and “the house of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God from that day onward” (Ezek. 39:21–23). . . . Chronologically this all fits very nicely. The events of Esther took place during the reign of Darius, after the initial rebuilding of the Temple under Joshua [the High Priest] and Zerubbabel and shortly before rebuilding of the walls by Nehemiah. . . . Thus, the interpretive hypothesis I am suggesting (until someone shoots it down) is this: Ezekiel 34–37 describes the first return of the exiles under Zerubbabel, and implies the initial rebuilding of the physical Temple. Ezekiel 38–39 describes the attack of Gog (Haman) and his confederates against the Jews. Finally, Ezekiel 40–48 describes in figurative language the situation as a result of the work of Nehemiah.[2]

Ezekiel 38:5–6 tells us that Israel’s enemies come from “Persia, Cush, and . . . from the remote parts of the north,” all within the boundaries of the Persian Empire of Esther’s day. From Esther we learn that the Persian Empire “extended from India to Cush, 127 provinces” in all (Esther 8:9). Ethiopia (Cush) and Persia are listed in Esther 1:1 and 3 and are also found in Ezekiel 38:5. The other nations were in the geographical boundaries “from India to Ethiopia” in the “127 provinces” over which Ahasueras ruled (Esther 1:1). “In other words, the explicit idea that the Jews were attacked by people from all the provinces of Persia is in both passages,”[3] and the nations listed by Ezekiel were part of the Persian empire of the prophet’s day. The parallels are unmistakable. Even Ezekiel’s statement that the fulfillment of the prophecy takes place in a time when there are “unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11) is not an indication of a distant future fulfillment as Grant Jeffrey attempts to argue:

It is interesting to note that during the lifetime of Ezekiel and up until 1900, virtually all of the villages and cities in the Middle East had walls for defense. Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls. Yet, in our day, Israel is a “land of unwalled villages” for the simple reason that modern techniques of warfare (bombs and missiles) make city walls irrelevant for defense. This is one more indication that his prophecy refers to our modern generation.

* * * * *

Ezekiel’s reference to “dwell safely” and “without walls . . . neither bars nor gates” refers precisely to Israel’s current military situation, where she is dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense and where her cities and villages have no walls or defensive bars. The prophet had never seen a city without walls, so he was astonished when he saw, in a vision, Israel dwelling in the future without walls. Ezekiel lived in a time when every city in the world used huge walls for military defense. [4]

In Esther we learn that there were Jews who were living peacefully in “unwalled towns” (KJV) (9:19) when Haman conspired against them. Israel’s antagonists in Ezekiel are said to “go up against the land of unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11). The Hebrew word perazah is used in Esther 9:19 and Ezekiel 38:11.[5] This fits the conditions of Esther’s day. Jeffrey is mistaken in his assertion that “Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls.” They seemed to be quite common outside the main cities. Moreover, his contention that Israel is currently “dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense” is patently untrue. Since 2006, the Israeli government has built more than 435 miles of walls in Israel.[6]

The chief antagonist of the Jews in Esther is Haman, “the son of Hammedatha the Agagite” (Esther 3:1, 10; 8:3, 5; 9:24).[7] An Agagite is a descendant of Amalek, one of the persistent enemies of the people of God. In Numbers 24:20 we read, “Amalek was the first of the nations, but his end shall be destruction.” The phrase “first of the nations” takes us back to the early chapters of Genesis where we find “Gomer,” “Magog,” “Tubal,” and “Meshech,” and their father Japheth (Gen. 10:2), the main antagonist nations that figure prominently in Ezekiel 38 and 39. Amalek was probably a descendant of Japheth (Gen. 10:2). Haman and his ten sons are the last Amalekites who appear in the Bible. In Numbers 24:7, the Septuagint (LXX) translates “Agag” as “Gog.” “One late manuscript to Esther 3:1 and 9:24 refers to Haman as a ‘Gogite.’”[8] Agag and Gog are very similar in their Hebrew spelling and meaning. Agagite means “I will overtop,” while Gog means “mountain.” In his technical commentary on Esther, Lewis Bayles Paton writes:

The only Agag mentioned in the OT is the king of Amalek [Num. 24:7; 1 Sam. 15:9]. . . . [A]ll Jewish, and many Christian comm[entators] think that Haman is meant to be a descendant of this Agag. This view is probably correct, because Mordecai, his rival, is a descendant of Saul ben Kish, who overthrew Agag [1 Sam. 17:8–16], and is specially cursed in the law [Deut. 25:17]. It is, therefore, probably the author’s intention to represent Haman as descended from this race that was characterized by an ancient and unquenchable hatred of Israel (cf. 3:10, “the enemy of the Jews”).[9]

A cursive Hebrew manuscript identifies Haman as “a Gogite.”[10] Paul Haupt sees a relationship between Haman’s descriptions as an Agagite and “the Gogite.”[11]

There is another link between Haman the Agagite in Esther and Gog in Ezekiel 38–39. “According to Ezekiel 39:11 and 15, the place where the army of Gog is buried will be known as the Valley of Hamon-Gog, and according to verse 16, the nearby city will become known as Hamonah.”[12] The word hamon in Ezekiel “is spelled in Hebrew almost exactly like the name Haman. . . . In Hebrew, both words have the same ‘triliteral root’ (hmn). Only the vowels are different.”[13]

Haman is the “prince-in-chief” of a multi-national force that he gathers from the 127 provinces with the initial permission of king Ahasuerus to wipe out his mortal enemy—the Jews (Ex. 17:8–16; Num. 24:7; 1 Sam. 15:8; 1 Chron. 4:42–43; Deut. 25:17–19). Consider these words: “King Ahasuerus promoted Haman, the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, and advanced him and established his authority over all the princes who were with him” (Esther 3:1). Having “authority over all the princes who were with him” makes him the “chief prince.” In Esther 3:12 we read how Haman is described as the leader of the satraps, governors, and princes. The importance of this title is made clear in my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future.

I’m thankful that Richardson has broken the Russia=Gog stranglehold that has served as the basis for so many end-time prophecy books. He acknowledges that breaking away from the prophetic status quo will not make him “very many friends in [his] own community by doing so.” Richardson is still engaged in newspaper exegesis. As I point out in Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future, when historical circumstances change, there are changes in interpretation. Islam was considered the prophetic Gog as far back as the eighth century. Protestant Reformer Martin Luther (1483–1546) believed that “the papacy was the antichrist alluded to in the eleventh chapter of Daniel, and the Turk was the small horn that replaced three horns of the beast in the seventh chapter.”[14] Hal Lindsey began his prophetic career identifying Russia as Gog but later changed to the Islamic nations.

Peter Toon offers a helpful historical perspective on the way commentators understood the place of Islam and the Papacy in relation to Bible prophecy:

References to the Turkish Empire appear in virtually every Commentary on the Apocalypse of John which was produced by English Puritans, Independents, Presbyterians and Baptists. Gog and Magog were identified with the armies of Turkey and the Muslim world, descriptions of Turkish military power were seen in the contents of the trumpet (Rev. 9:13–21), and the year 1300 was believed to have great significance for it was at that time that the Turk became a threat to European civilization.

* * * * *

For the English Puritans, as for many of their fellow Protestants on the Continent of Europe, the fact that the Ottoman Empire had for its religion Islam, the teaching of Mohammed, the ‘false’ prophet of God, was sufficient to label it as an envoy or agent of Satan, seeking to destroy the true Church of Christ. In view of this we cannot be surprised to learn that they believed God had given to John on Patmos a vision of this great enemy of the elect of God, who would one day be destroyed by the power of Christ.[15]

It should not surprise us, therefore, that when Christians wrote on the subject of Bible prophecy, they would take current events into account. For these interpreters, the Islamic advances could not be ignored. “[D]uring the oppressive conquests of the Saracens[16] the prophecies concerning Antichrist were searched anew by the monks and priests—in the hope they would yield perhaps an indication that Mohammed or his fierce followers could be meant by the passages referring to Antichrist.”[17]

So then, Joel Richardson isn’t really offering a new interpretation. He has resurrected an old one that was wrong then and is wrong today. The Gog-Magog prophecy was fulfilled in the vents of the book of Esther. We should praise God for this fulfillment. It’s because of Esther and Mordecai’s faithfulness and God’s special intervention that the Jewish people were rescued, Mary was born, and Jesus was “born of a virgin,” a Jewish virgin.

Endnotes:
[1] James B. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History (Niceville, FL: Biblical Horizons, 1995), 5.
[2] Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 5–7.
[3] Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
[4] Grant R. Jeffrey, The Next World War: What Prophecy Reveals About Extreme Islam and the West (Colorado Springs, CO: WaterBrook Press, 2006), 143, 147–148.
[5] It’s unfortunate that the translators of the New American Standard Version translate perazah as “rural towns” in Esther 9:19 instead of “unwalled villages” as they do in Ezekiel 38:11.
[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Westbank_barrier.png and www.jmcc.org/images/maps/wallfeb05.pdf
[7] In the First Targum to Esther, an Aramaic translation of the Hebrew Bible, the following is found: “The measure of judgment came before the Lord of the whole world and spoke thus: Did not the wicked Haman come down from Susa to Jerusalem in order to hinder the building of the house of thy Sanctuary?” (Lewis Bayles Paton, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Book of Esther [New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, (1908) 1916], 194). 3:1 בתר פיתגמיא האילין עאלת מדת דינא קדם רבון כל עלמא וכן אמרת הלא המן רשיעא נחית וסליק מן שושן לירושלם לבטלא בנין בית מקדשא
8] Sverre Bøe, Gog and Magog: Ezekiel 38–39 As Pre-Text for Revelation 19, 17–21 and 20, 7–10 (Wissunt Zum Neun Testament Ser. II, 135) (Tübingen, Germany: Mohr Siebeck, 2001), 384. Anton Scholz (1892), taking an allegorical approach, comments: “The Book of Esther is a prophetic repetition and further development of Ezekiel’s prophecy concerning Gog.” Quoted in Paton, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Book of Esther, 56. The point in all these Gog-Agagite references is to show that there are a number of scholars who see a literary parallel between Ezekiel 38–39 and Esther.
[9] Paton, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Book of Esther, 194.
[10] Paton, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Book of Esther, 194. “When 93a makes him a Gogite (cf. Ez. 38–39), and L makes him a Macedonian, these are only other ways of expressing the same idea. . .” (194).
[11]Paul Haupt, “Critical Notes on Esther,” OT and Semitic Studies in Memory of W. R. Harper, II (Chicago: 1908), 194–204.
[12] Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
[13] Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7. This is quite different from identifying the common Hebrew word rosh with modern-day Russia since there is only one common letter between rosh and Russia. See Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future for additional information on the identity of rosh.
[14] Mark U. Edwards, Jr., Luther’s Last Battles: Politics and Polemics, 1531–46 Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1983), 97.
[15] Peter Toon, “Introduction,” Puritans, the Millennium and the Future of Israel: Puritan Eschatology 1600 to 1660 (London: James Clarke & Co. Ltd., 1970), 19–20.
[16] Saracens was the name Christians had given to Moslems during the time of the Crusades. Moslems who had invaded Spain from Morocco were called Moors. Saracen might be based on a word meaning “easterners.”
[17] LeRoy Froom, Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers: The Historical Development of Prophetic Interpretation, 4 vols. (Washington, DC: Review and Herald, 1950), 1:530.

http://americanvision.org/1727/battle-of-gog-magog/

See also:
http://americanvision.org/2695/hoping-and-praying-for-gog-and-magog/

M
murrcolr Jan 29, 2013

What the first article is saying that the names in Pslam 83 are different from that of Ezk 38

Ezekiel list: Magog 
Meshech Tubal 
Persia Ethiopia Libya
 Gomer Ashkenaz 
Togarmah and many peoples with thee

Pslams 83 list Edom Ishmaelites; Moab Hagrites; Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek; Philistia Tyre; Assyria the children of Lot.

When you look at a map of the specific nations that Ezekiel lists, you will notice that they are all somewhat distant from Israel.

While the Pslam 83 list are the nations surrounding Israel.

Is Pslam 83 the war where the prophecies about Damascus and Egypt’s destruction are fulfilled?

Isa 17:1 Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

Ezekiel 29:12 And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries.

Is Pslam 83 a war where the surrounding nations of Israel are destroyed and could lead to the possible time where Israel would live in peace. In Ezekiel it states that Israel will be dwelling safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates when Gog and his confederacy of nations attack Ezekiel 38:8,11,14

A
ADisciple Jan 29, 2013

I always like to put on my "new covenant" glasses when I read through the Old Testament. And I notice that the New Covenant apostle John has a very interesting (and I would say Spirit-inspired) "alternate view" of the Gog/Magog invasion.

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them" (Rev. 20.7-9).

And so the Gog/Magog horde attacks "the camp of the saints, and the beloved city..." The camp of the saints? The only saints spoken of in the New Testament are those who are in Christ Jesus. And their "camp" is the beloved City to which (in the New Covenant) they have come-- the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb. 12.22).

We Christians (whether Jew or Gentile) are yet going to see an all-out assault on our camp and City. And it's this that, in my estimation, is the fulfillment of that ancient prophecy in Ezekiel.

Allan

A
a-servant Jan 30, 2013

Re: (Ezekiel 38 indicates that Israel is dwelling safely and “without walls.”)

No it does not, you have to read and re-read the prophets many times until to get the nuances, here is spoken of an dual event. First an attack on Israel, then second at the same time the armies "go up" (not down) to the land of unwalled villages. That have cattle in the middle of the land. Every one been to Israel knows there is no cattle in the middle of the land, nor does anyone dwell without walls.

Who can explain all the details on this, I think Henry Gruver does a good presentation in his "russian invasion".

M
Matthew2323 Jan 30, 2013

a-servant,

Let's look at a portion of the passage:

7 "Be prepared, and prepare yourself, you and all your companies that are assembled about you, and be a guard for them. 8 "After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them. 9 "You will go up, you will come like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land, you and all your troops, and many peoples with you." 10'Thus says the Lord GOD, "It will come about on that day, that thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil plan, 11 and you will say, 'I will go up against the land of unwalled villages. I will go against those who are at rest, that live securely, all of them living without walls and having no bars or gates 12 to capture spoil and to seize plunder, to turn your hand against the waste places which are now inhabited, and against the people who are gathered from the nations, who have acquired cattle and goods, who live at the center of the world.'

Notice in verse 8 that those "living securely," "have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations..." What type of nuace would lead you to believe that "living securely" means "NOT living securely?"

Also, in verse 11 the phrase "go up" is clarified as "go up against." So the use of "go up" in verse 9 is speaking of an attack not the direction (as in north).

In verse 12 it is the people who "live at the center of the world;" people "who have acquired cattle and goods." The verse is not telling us to look for cattle in "the center of the world" to help us find the location of the conflict.

It is immaterial where the cattle live in present-day Israel because the prophecy has already been fulfilled. Newspaper headlines are unreliable interpreters of Holy Writ.

Grace and peace,
Matthew

A
a-servant Jan 30, 2013

Hey Matthew - "the prophecy has already been fulfilled"

yes I am aware from your previous posts that you are living in a world of past history, and prophecy is something you want to be subject to that.

Maybe we should wait until current reality becomes history past, so it will be easier for us to discuss this.

M
Matthew2323 Jan 30, 2013

a-servant,

Nice ad hominem.

Any thoughts on the other comments I made?

Grace and peace,
Matthew

M
murrcolr Jan 30, 2013

Quote: It is immaterial where the cattle live in present-day Israel because the prophecy has already been fulfilled.

When was it then?

M
Matthew2323 Jan 31, 2013

Colin,

Thanks for the follow-up question.

From the article that was posted earlier:

If the battle described in Ezekiel 38–39 does not refer to modern-day nations that will attack Israel, then when and where in biblical history did this conflict take place? Instead of looking to the distant future or finding fulfillment in a historical setting outside the Bible where we are dependent on unreliable secular sources, James B. Jordan believes that “it is in [the book of] Esther that we see a conspiracy to plunder the Jews, which backfires with the result that the Jews plundered their enemies. This event is then ceremonially sealed with the institution of the annual Feast of Purim.”[1] Jordan continues by establishing the context for Ezekiel 38 and 39:
Ezekiel describes the attack of Gog, Prince of Magog, and his confederates. Ezekiel states that people from all over the world attack God’s people, who are pictured dwelling at peace in the land. God’s people will completely defeat them, however, and the spoils will be immense. The result is that all nations will see the victory, and “the house of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God from that day onward” (Ezek. 39:21–23). . . . Chronologically this all fits very nicely. The events of Esther took place during the reign of Darius, after the initial rebuilding of the Temple under Joshua [the High Priest] and Zerubbabel and shortly before rebuilding of the walls by Nehemiah. . . . Thus, the interpretive hypothesis I am suggesting (until someone shoots it down) is this: Ezekiel 34–37 describes the first return of the exiles under Zerubbabel, and implies the initial rebuilding of the physical Temple. Ezekiel 38–39 describes the attack of Gog (Haman) and his confederates against the Jews. Finally, Ezekiel 40–48 describes in figurative language the situation as a result of the work of Nehemiah.[2]

Endnotes:
[1] James B. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History (Niceville, FL: Biblical Horizons, 1995), 5.
[2] Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 5–7.

Full article here: http://americanvision.org/1727/battle-of-gog-magog/
And another at: http://americanvision.org/2695/hoping-and-praying-for-gog-and-magog/

Althought the mind of God can be confusing at times to we who inhabit the earth, it does not seem likely that a prophetic indicator would be bovine residence. Besides, the thrust of the passage is where the people live; he cattle are incidental.

We all know that the Bible is the infallible Word of God. From that, I (and others) conclude that the Scriptures are a more reliable interpreter of themselves than any man, council, denomination, etc. When we interpret the Bible, we bring to the table our own backgrounds, wounds, biases, etc that color our interpretations. The Scriptures have no such baggage.

Because the futuristic interpretation is en vogue these days, it appears that people are willing to accept the status quo without ever considering that there are other options available. Also, I think people accept the futuristic approach becuase they do not know what historical and/or Biblical data exists that supports the fulfillment of some prophecy. I was astounded when I first saw the historical evidence that much of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Passages of Scripture that had seemed so alien to my American mind were made clear. And, I was much more peaceful in my soul with this new-found discovery. (Not that my personal experience validates this position, mind you, just sharing a little of myself.)

The articles that I linked are pretty lengthy but well worth the investment. If you have the time and interest I'd be curious to know what you think of their conclusion(s).

Grace and peace,
Matthew

M
murrcolr Jan 31, 2013

Quote: This event is then ceremonially sealed with the institution of the annual Feast of Purim.

The Story Is Set in Persia

For some strange reason, the original story of Haman’s plot to kill the Jews takes place in the court of Ahasuerus, king of the Persian Empire. And, today, a new plot to destroy the Jews is emerging from that same country — Persia/Iran. As we shall see, there are at least three historical references implying that Persia/Iran will be the country that leads the world into the final conflicts of the Tribulation Period.

The original biblical story takes place in the palace of King Ahasuerus at Susa in the Persian Empire. At a banquet, the king calls upon Queen Vashti to display her beauty before his guests. She refuses and through a strange turn of events the Jewish maiden, Esther, finds favor in his eyes. Eventually, she becomes his queen.

Her cousin, Mordecai, is also favored at court when he uncovers a plot to kill the king. As a reward, those at court were told to honor him. But “Haman the son of Hammedatha, the Agagite,” found it difficult to pay homage to a Jew. Haman was an Edomite, through Esau’s son, Amalek. Agag was the king of the Amalekites. Contrary to the direct order of God, King Saul allowed him to live after the Israelites had defeated the Amalekites.

As the story goes, Haman, a descendant of the Amalekites, developed a burning hatred for the Jews. He was made grand vizier above all other princes, and plotted to kill all the Jews, starting with Mordecai.

Haman was so anxious to annihilate the Jews that he cast lots for a whole year to determine the best time to execute his plan. The Assyrian word for lots is “puru,” which enters the Hebrew language as Purim. He built a gallows and planned to use it to make an example of Mordecai. But in the end, through a final, subtle twist of events, Haman and his sons were hanged upon that same gallows.

Haman stands as an example of the fate given to those who attempt to destroy the Jews.

-------------------------

A Prophecy in the book of Ezekiel

Ezekiel was a Levite exiled during the Babylonian Captivity. He is one of the most important Old Testament prophets to give us a view of the world’s final battle — called in Ezekiel, “The Battle of Gog and Magog.” Ezekiel’s adventures (if we can call them that) were spectacular. In chapter 38, he foresaw the Battle of Gog and Magog, which leads to the final confrontation, referred to in John’s Apocalypse as the “Battle of Armageddon.” Ezekiel tells us that Persia will be the Number One confederate with Gog in the future invasion of Israel:
“I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

“Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet” (Ezekiel 38:4,5).

Ezekiel continues with an unusual battle strategy gone terribly wrong for Israel’s enemies:“Every man’s sword shall be against his brother” (Ezekiel 38:21). Confusion will cloud the minds of the invading army and cause the Persians and their confederates to turn against each other.

A Prophecy in The Book of Enoch

The Book of Enoch appears to be the oldest book ever written. And though it has been corrupted from time to time by would-be authors, it is fairly easy to determine its original autographs. According to the second of seven scrolls that comprise the ancient writing, Enoch was told that Persia would lead the world in its final attempt to destroy the Jews:

“And in those days the angels will assemble, and turn their heads toward the east, towards the people of Parthia and Media [Persia/Iran], in order to excite the kings, and that a spirit of disturbance come over them, and disturb them from off their thrones, that they come forth from their resting places like lions, and like hungry wolves amidst their flocks.

“And they will ascend and step upon the land of their chosen, and the land of his chosen will be before them a threshing-floor and a path.

“But the city of my just will be a hindrance to their horses, and they will take up a battle amongst themselves, and their right will become strong against themselves, and a man will not know his neighbor or his brother, nor the son of his father or his mother, until there shall be sufficient bodies by their death and their punishment over them — it will not be in vain.
“And in those days the mouth of Sheol will be opened, and they will sink into it; and their destruction, Sheol, will devour the sinners from the presence of the chosen” (Enoch 56:5-8).

It is possible that this was written before the death of Adam. And, though Persia did not exist at that time, we are told that Enoch traveled into the future on several occasions. As we can tell from the prophecies of Ezekiel, Enoch corresponds with the biblical view that Persia will have an important part in shaping the world’s final battles. Notice that Enoch and Ezekiel both said that the enemy would turn on itself at the height of the confusion and begin to battle each other. Enoch said, “They will take up a battle amongst themselves, and their right will become strong against themselves, and a man will not know his neighbor or his brother, nor the son of his father or his mother …” while Ezekiel put it this way: “Every man’s sword shall be again.

The online encyclopedia, Wikipedia, says: “The Zohar first appeared in Spain in the 13th century, and was published by a Jewish writer named Moses de Leon. De Leon ascribed the work to Shimon bar Yochai, a rabbi of the 2nd century during the Roman persecution who, according to Jewish legend, hid in a cave for thirteen years studying the Torah and was inspired by the Prophet Elijah to write the Zohar.” In this fascinating book, the children of Ishmael were targeted as the end-time enemy of Israel:

“The children of Ishmael will at the same time rouse all the peoples of the world to come up to war against Jerusalem, as it is written, ‘For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle …’ (Zechariah 14:2), also, ‘The kings of the earth stand up and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against his anointed’ (Psalm 2:2); and further, ‘He that sitteth in heaven laugheth, the Lord hath them in derision’ (Psalm 2:4).”

Could he be referring to the wars that lead up to the battle of Armageddon? Of this we need not speculate. The rabbi quotes enough Scripture to convince us that he definitely has Armageddon in mind. Only the resurrection could be in mind as Rabbi Simeon concludes:

“Happy are those who will be left alive at the end of the sixth millennium to enter on the Sabbath, for that is the day set apart by the Holy One on which to effect the union of souls and to cull new souls to join those that are still on earth, as it is written, ‘And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written into life in Jerusalem’ (Isaiah 4:3).”

So, there you have it. There are three different sources — all from the Jewish Library of books and commentaries that were once kept in the Temple in Jerusalem, and later, in the caves of Qumran. Persia and the children of Ishmael are regarded by Jewish theologians as the enemy who will attempt to destroy the Chosen People in the end-time.

As in the case of Haman, he represented only a small faction of Persians who hated the Jews. Most of the Persians appreciated God’s Chosen People. Cyrus had allowed them the resources to return to Jerusalem and rebuild their Temple. And so it is today. Most of the Modern Persians do not hate Israel. Nor do they want a madman to lead their government. But in the last election, they were unable to rid themselves of their dictator, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
Iran’s modern madman recently announced that he has enough enriched uranium to build a bomb. Also, according to The Huffington Post, “during a [recent] speech, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad questioned whether the Holocaust was ‘a real event’ and called it a pretext used by Jews to trick the West into backing the creation of Israel. He said the Jewish state was created out of ‘a lie and a mythical claim.’

“Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said that Ahmadinejad ‘yet again shames the great tradition of the noble Iranian people’ and has chosen ‘the violent repression of Iranians over a policy of friendship and cooperation that would have promoted their welfare and their honor.’
“Along with his anti-Israel and anti-U.S. rhetoric, Ahmadinejad often portrays himself as the champion of a new world order ending Western domination and providing justice for developing nations.”

In the final analysis, it will be important for us to keep an eye on Iran and their constant ranting against Israel. We have every reason to believe that Iran will spark the war of wars in the Middle East and bring the world down to the place of Divine Judgment. We may be that close to the Second Coming of Christ.

http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/feast-of-purim-festival-with-a-prophecy/

M
murrcolr Jan 31, 2013

Matthew looking at the information sent and doing a little bit of digging into it would look like this was a type of a deliverance that will be seen in the future. A kind of symbolic representation in the bible is known as "types," and the study of types is called "typology." A type is an Old Testament institution, event, ceremony, object, or person that God specifically designed to serve as predictive prefiguration (types) of His saving grace and power yet to be revealed. The first fulfillment is always incomplete and confirms the fact that another fulfillment is coming

The Abomination of Desolation occurred in 168 BC and will occur in the future. It’s a type of what will happen again, but that doesn’t mean life on Earth will be like it was in 168 BC. It simply means that the event itself will be recognized because of its similarity to its first occurrence.

Feasts were more than mere ceremonies designed to meet the immediate religious needs of the people. They were divinely designed prefigurations (types) of the unfolding of the plan of salvation. We have found that the Spring Feasts of Passover, Firstfruits, Unleavened Bread, and Pentecost typify Christ’s redemptive ministry and the Feasts of Trumpets, Atonement, and Tabernacles represent the consummation of His redemptive ministry.

M
Matthew2323 Feb 2, 2013

Colin,

In the Old Testament there are types in the form of people and feasts and even in events (Noah's ark, freedom from slavery in Egypt, etc.) which are fulfilled in Christ and/or elements of salvation. Are there any biblical examples where the type and anti-type are wars? Granted, if there are no other examples, it doesn't prove that this one is not, it just means it's not likely that the pattern has been broken.

Of the nations mentioned in Ezekiel's vision how many are still standing today? If they no longer exist, what threat do they pose to a future Israel?

Ezekiel speaks of a time where there are swords, bows and arrows, spears, war clubs, etc. The article you linked speaks of an uranium bomb (complete with a photograph of launched missles). How do you get from these primative weapons to nuclear warfare?

Grace and peace,
Matthew

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