Is the baptism in the holy Spirit for us today?

sermonindex Mar 8, 2005

Greetings Friends,I want to throw this out to you guys and I would like to see what each one of you think on this topic.Is the baptism in the holy Spirit for us today?There are 3 opinions that are in the main stream today.1) When one receives the holy Spirit they will speak in tongues as the Spirit gives him utterance.2)The holy Spirit becomes resident in an individual upon receiving Christ into their life. When the individual has enough faith, in time the speaking of an unknown tongue will come out of him as the Spirit gives the utterance.3)The holy Spirit becomes resident in an individuals life upon receiving Christ as thier personal saviour, there is no need to speak in tongues as this is no longer an evidence to the baptism of the holy Spirit but the fruit of the Spirit is.There might be a 4th one or even a 5th, but these are the only ones that I know of.Karl

sermonindex Mar 8, 2005

yes yes!!I believe that the greatest gift of the Holy Spirit baptism is love, and the least gift is tongues, but all are available as He sees fit to give.HalleLuYah!

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RobertW Mar 8, 2005

Hi Karl,Ask God to fill you with His Spirit daily. You must have that fulness to walk in the Spirit. I can't persuade you enough to seek God daily for his Spirit to fill your live. It is absolutely essential to the Christian life. God Bless,-Robert

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ZekeO Mar 8, 2005

Hi touched on this before:These pretty much run the gamut of most of the ieas in the church today I think.Baptism/infilling of spiritThe Distinction Between Being "Filled" and "Baptized" in the Holy GhostQuestion on "tongues"Theres more. If you do a search you can find some amazing articles and sermons from fellows whose thongs I am not worthy to untie, happy hunting.

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PTywama3 Mar 8, 2005

Just please don't get stuck on tongues. One thing I have been hammered with is that this is just about the most baffling sign to work with. Although it was a common sign in the book of acts, we are (to the very best of my knowledge) not -outright- told biblically that it has to accompany baptism of the Holy Spirit.Some people I know have never spoken in tongues, but move readily with the Spirit in prayer. I respect these people, though I, too, have spoken in tongues.Some people I have met have spoken in tongues once in their life as a Christian, the time of which spans several decades.

sermonindex Mar 8, 2005

I think people get hung up on terminology...there is an experience with the Holy Spirit that is VITAL for Christian living. We can call it a baptism or a fullness/filling (Oswald J. Smith said we need to be filled whereas others talk about a baptism). I don't think it matters what we call it - and i think we get overly hung up on tongues.The fullness/baptism of the Holy Spirit is for one purpose and that is power over sin! We need to be filled daily and sometimes we will have a supernatural experience and other times it will be a more gradual process but the key is SURRENDER - we cannot be filled unless we are surrendering all areas of our life to God.We must always be careful that we don't go after God's gifts for our own sake - our desire should be to glorify God in all that we do. Every day we are drawing closer to God and seeking to walk more intimately with him...as we do so we will be filled. When there is less of Steve there can be more of God. It's not a magical event (can be very incredible at times)...it comes as we allow ourselves to be broken and as we allow God to take his proper place.God bless!Your brother in Christ,Stephen

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philologos Mar 8, 2005

Theres more. If you do a search you can find some amazing articles and sermons from fellows whose thongs I am not worthy to untie, happy hunting.Ah, but 'thongs' aren't what they used to be. :-D

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ZekeO Mar 8, 2005

Very good!

sermonindex Mar 8, 2005

As for tongues... it was not always a sign accompanying the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts. Also, most folks base their doctrine of tongues on Paul's extensive letters to the church in Corinth. BUT he was in no way complimentary toward them concerning their use of tongues... in fact, he was very scolding.I believe tongues is for today. I do NOT believe it is the "initial evidence" of being Spirit filled, as my Assemblies brethren do. I do not believe in a "prayer language", or an angelic language that each believer receives (there is no Biblical basis for this belief).I believe most of what we see in the church that is being passed off as tongues is false. I wish I had a dime for every person I know who has said "I was a tongues speaker... and after several years I realized I was not even saved!" ... someone said that on a different thread just last week. I also believe that there are many well meaning Christians who think they are speaking in tongues but are not. I used to be one of them.Conversly, I have heard of missionaries (and know two personally) who were in a country where they didnt know the language, and found themselves speaking to locals in a language they never learned. It seems to me that if God is going to bestow the gift of tongues on someone, this would be the context in which He would do it... where it was speading the gospel and meeting the poor of this world on their level. Not in a chaotic church service where the emotional hype is thru the roof.But these are just my opinions... everyone is free to disagree with me. Thats ok. It's doesnt bother me.Krispy

sermonindex Mar 13, 2005

If that "which is perfect" has come, then the gifts of the Holy Spirit should have ceased. Since we still see "through a glass darkly", I do believe that the continual filling of the Holy Spirit is for today, and where a person is being led by the Spirit in obedience to God, certain gifts will likely manifest His presence within them as they go their way. John 14:21 I do not believe that the evidence of being baptised in the Holy Spirit is speaking in an unknown tongue. Paul in fact asks some pointed questions right in 1 Cor 12, "do all prophesy", "do all work miracles", "do all speak in tongues". The demanded answer, according to greek scholars, is NO. Consequently, tongues cannot be the "evidence" of being baptised in the Holy Spirit since all do not speak in tongues. The bible does tell us that we would all receive "power" when the Holy Spirit came upon us to be witnesses. Now, this word witness here does not mean passing out tracts and preaching on the street corner. It is in fact, a greek word that means "martyr". I heard someone say recently, that the only good witness is a dead witness. If you have not been crucified with Chirst by faith, then you have no hope to preach about in His resurrection. If we have not lost our life, then we have not kept our life. If we have not forsaken all, then we have not forsaken anything. A martyr is someone who has lost their life, beloved. This is the evidence of the infiling of the Holy Spirit and Acts 1:8 clearly says so. I have personally seen very introverted people become a babbling brook of testimony about the goodness of God and His saving unmerited favor through Jesus Christ and His finished work at Calvary. This of course after recieving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. (baptism = immersion). Our lives are swallowed up in Christ Jesus. I've also seen those who claim they have been baptised into the Holy Spirit who would rather talk about the super bowl than the love of Jesus. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speakth. Jesus said, "not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father. Most people have no idea what the will of the Father is for their life. How will they enter in?I must chime in with others, that most of what is displayed as "gifts of the Spirit" in churches today is nothing more that emotional hoopla for the purpose of entertaining bored so called believers. That was never the purpose of the gifts. Let me explain.I spent most of my working days as an "Instrument Technician" in petro-chemical plants. I carried with me a small canvas bag of small tools needed to do most of the common tasks of my trade. So when I came upon a situation that I needed a small screw driver, I'd find it in the bag, and apply it to the task at hand. If I needed a voltage tester, I would find it in the bag, and apply it to the task at hand. Now mind you, I did not go around bragging that I had this tool or that. I would have been thought of as being very strange to do so. "Hey, I've got a screw driver". "Hey I've got a voltage tester". Well, if I did not know where and what to do with it, what good was it? Moreover, if I had only a screw driver, and I needed a voltage tester, what good is the screw driver to the task at hand? For me, the Holy Spirit is kinda like my tool bag. When I'm out doing what I'm called to do, He is with me. Regardless of what tool I need to complete the task at hand, He will supply it if I am walking in obedience to His leading and guidance. He always supplies the right tool for the job. Of course, if all I'm doing is sitting around in a building talking about the gifts I have and never get out and follow His leading to make a difference in a lost person's life, then I am really strange. Furthermore, I'm probably lying about the gifts just to impress others and try to get them to believe that I am "spiritual". That is being a man pleaser to the max. If we would only obey God and do the work of the ministry, ie, get outside the box (building), we will not have to be concerned about gifts and being spiritual. God will supply all our needs, according to His riches and glory in Christ Jesus. He will decide which gifts we need, which ones we get, and where. Paul said the Holy Spirit supplies severally as He wills. Personally, I'd rather have the Holy Spirit than any gift. Is the Holy Spirit for today? Oh yes, indeed. But there are so few who know Him, who listen to Him, and who obey Him. Over 100,000 people will leave this earth today while we are in church, most of them without Christ. Selah.

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PreachParsly Mar 13, 2005

I do not believe in a "prayer language", or an angelic language that each believer receives (there is no Biblical basis for this belief).Krispy, How do you interpret1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.Thanks

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IRONMAN Mar 13, 2005

I do not believe in a "prayer language", or an angelic language that each believer receives (there is no Biblical basis for this belief).the bible doesn't speak against it either

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IRONMAN Mar 13, 2005

There are many gifts of the spirit, tongues is but one of them. If all who received the spirit spoke in tongues, who would be left to heal, minister and carry on the other responsibilities of the church? Just because one doesn't speak in tongues it doesn't mean that the spirit is not there, and on the flip side tongues does not mean that the person is filled with the Holy Spirit either because the devil can counterfeit these gifts too.

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IRONMAN Mar 13, 2005

The fullness/baptism of the Holy Spirit is for one purpose and that is power over sin! We need to be filled daily and sometimes we will have a supernatural experience and other times it will be a more gradual process but the key is SURRENDER - we cannot be filled unless we are surrendering all areas of our life to God.OK so the Holy SPirit gives us power over sin and then what? So we receive the spirit and sin no more then what? We must remember the primary reason for the spirit is not to overcome sin but for us to be empowered by God to do HIS WORK. That is what the spirit does. It is God giving us His ability to do His work. The spirit is spirit and the flesh is flesh, sin lives in the flesh and God is dealing with us in the spirit so we can commune with Him in the spirit that we can worship Him in SPIRIT AND TRUTH. Power over sin comes not from purging it out of the flesh but from spending more and more time walking IN THE SPIRIT!!!

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IRONMAN Mar 13, 2005

The fullness/baptism of the Holy Spirit is for one purpose and that is power over sin! We need to be filled daily and sometimes we will have a supernatural experience and other times it will be a more gradual process but the key is SURRENDER - we cannot be filled unless we are surrendering all areas of our life to God.We need not be filled ever day with the spirit but rather we need to WALK IN THE SPIRIT EVERY DAY.The Spirit does not pack up and leave every day like a disgruntled lover, it is us who choose not walk in it and hence we don't do the work of God and the spirit is grieved. The work of God is what the spirit lives for and lives by so we need to FEED THE SPIRIT DAILY!!!

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philologos Mar 13, 2005

We must remember the primary reason for the spirit is not to overcome sin but for us to be empowered by God to do HIS WORK.As I understand it the primary purpose is to enable to be witnesses to Jesus Christ; the doing is the consequence not the purpose. It is written of the church at Corinth that 'the testimony of Christ was confirmed in them'; but something clearly went wrong. The purpose of the 'baptism' is to make us one with the character, purpose and power of Jesus Christ; I think...

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IRONMAN Mar 13, 2005

PhilologosGod bless you bro!!!I had long assumed that the purpose of the spirit was to empower us to do the work of God and I was wrong. The spirit's purpose is to allow us to be as Christ (because we can't be like Christ of ourseles) so that WE CAN do God's work. So doing God's work is an effect of becoming like Christ.

J

Jimm Mar 13, 2005

I believe tongues is for today. I do NOT believe it is the "initial evidence" of being Spirit filled, as my Assemblies brethren do. I do not believe in a "prayer language", or an angelic language that each believer receives (there is no Biblical basis for this belief).Bro KrispyI agree that speaking in tongues is not necessarily initial evidence of being filled with the spirit. Each believer does not receive a tongue, some do and some don't accoding to the will of God for that person. The tongues however do allow the spirit of that person to communicate with God without interference from the flesh. As for angelic tongues I know them to exist. There is no biblical basis for this but there is nothing in the bible to refute it either. This is an experience that I have had and can only share. I have nothing in scripture that backs it upThat is what I know God to have willed in my life and unless you were to experience it for yourself it would be abstract. Also the bible is not an exhaustive list of EVERYTHING that God is or has spoken to His people up to this point. This is not to say that the bible is lacking, the bible is a window for us to see the character of God in the spirit and should be interpreted in spirit, anything less will lead us down the wrong road. Consider this, the early apostles had the first 5 books and other writs but probably no references to tongues but some of them received that gift after Christ said they would. Also not every single thing God spoke to the apostles was written down, some were personal communications to them and some they may have been instructed not to write down. In short the bible is not the be it and end all of the Word of God. The revelations that God gives you may not be mentioned in the bible at all but does that make it any less a word of God? of course not. Conversly, I have heard of missionaries (and know two personally) who were in a country where they didnt know the language, and found themselves speaking to locals in a language they never learned. It seems to me that if God is going to bestow the gift of tongues on someone, this would be the context in which He would do it... where it was speading the gospel and meeting the poor of this world on their level. Not in a chaotic church service where the emotional hype is thru the roof.It may seem make sense for God to give the gift of tongues to missionaries but the fact is He doesn't. Those missionaries who are comissioned by God get whatever gifts God sees fit for His purpose.God doesn't always do things that make sense to us and what may be chaos in our sight is order in His. The truth is we know NOTHING of how God works. He does not always follow a pattern which we can descern nor does He expect that we do, He simply asks obedience to His ordinances. shoot me an email faraib@hotmail.com, God just gave me the instruction to get in touch with you earlier on, I'm unsure why.

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IRONMAN Mar 13, 2005

bro krispythat last post for you was from me and when James logged in to check on things the system logged me off so the post came on his profile. sorry about the mixup

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philologos Mar 14, 2005

Also the bible is not an exhaustive list of EVERYTHING that God is or has spoken to His people up to this point. This is not to say that the bible is lacking, the bible is a window for us to see the character of God in the spirit and should be interpreted in spirit, anything less will lead us down the wrong road. Consider this, the early apostles had the first 5 books and other writs but probably no references to tongues but some of them received that gift after Christ said they would. Also not every single thing God spoke to the apostles was written down, some were personal communications to them and some they may have been instructed not to write down. In short the bible is not the be it and end all of the Word of God. The revelations that God gives you may not be mentioned in the bible at all but does that make it any less a word of God? of course not.JimmI speak with tongues; I have done for over 45 years. So I don't want you to misunderstand the point I want to make. :-) Of course God can speak to anyone, anyway, anytime, but 'a word from God' is not 'the word of God'. The scriptures are a unique revelation of the mind of God for all time.And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2Ti 3:15-17 KJV)No other 'utterance' has this authority, so in this sense the bible is 'the be all and end all of the Word of God'. Its omissions were quided by God just as much as its additions. We seem to be missing the original 1 Corinthians; (1 Cor 5:9) we don't have it because it was not necessary for us to have it. Although it may well have contained 'truth' God did not choose this 'truth' as having worldwide and age-lasting signifance. It was no doubt a 'word from God' but it never became 'scripture'. And it is the scriptures which are to be our final court of appeal in all our teachings.Consider this, the early apostles had the first 5 books and other writs but probably no references to tongues but some of them received that gift after Christ said they would.I am not sure what you are saying here. The 'early apostles' had no books. The earliest writings of the New Testament were probably James and Galatians. But what they did have was a unique equipping of the Spirit which has never been repeated. The early church had the Apostles; we have the writings of the Apostles.