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THE OFFENCE OF THE CROSS

sermonindex Mar 8, 2005

THE OFFENCE OF THE CROSS CEASINGBy Thomas ScottLeave out the holy character of God, the holy excellence of his law, the holy condemnation to which transgressors are doomed, the holy loveliness of the Saviour's character, the doctrine, and the holy tempers and conduct of all true believers: then dress up a scheme of religion of this unholy sort: represent mankind as in a pitiable condition, rather through misfortune than by crime: speak much of Christ's bleeding love to them, of his agonies in the garden and on the cross; without shewing the need or the nature of the satisfaction for sin: speak of his present glory, and of his compassion for poor sinners; of the freeness with which he dispenses pardons; of the privileges which believers enjoy here, and of the happiness and glory reserved for them hereafter: clog this with nothing about regeneration and sanctification, or represent holiness as somewhat else than conformity to the holy character and law of God: and you make up a plausible gospel, calculated to humour the pride, soothe the consciences, engage the hearts, and raise the affections of natural men, who love nobody but themselves.And now no wonder if this gospel (which has nothing in it affronting, offensive, or unpalatable, but is perfectly suited to the carnal unhumbled sinner, and helps him to quiet his conscience, dismiss his fears, and encourage his hopes,) incur no opposition amongst ignorant persons, who inquire not into the reason of things; meet with a hearty welcome, and make numbers of supposed converts, who live and die as full as they can hold of joy and confidence, without any fears or conflicts. ...What wonder if, when all the offensive part is left out, the gospel gives no offence? What wonder if, when it is made suitable to carnal minds, carnal minds fall in love with it? What wonder if, when it is evidently calculated to fill the unrenewed mind with false confidence and joy, it has this effect? What wonder if, when the true character of God is unknown, and a false character of him is framed in the fancy,--a God all love and no justice, very fond of such believers, as his favourites,--they have very warm affections towards him?I would not give needless offence. Let this matter be weighed according to its importance. Let the word of God be examined impartially. I cannot but avow my fears that Satan has propagated much of this false religion, among many widely different classes of religious professors; and it shines so brightly in the eyes of numbers, who 'take all for gold that glitters', that, unless the fallacy be detected, it bids fair to be the prevailing religion in many places.

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Angyl Mar 8, 2005

I cannot but avow my fears that Satan has propagated much of this false religion,Satan? What Satan?If we're going to be offense-free, we need to remove the figure of 'ultimate evil'. After all, there is no Hell. Our loving god is not going to send people there, but will, as a loving god, offer forgiveness for all people and their small, petty crimes they may have committed on this earth.Let's keep this above board, Krispy. No more talk of a 'devil' or 'hell' or anything negative like that. Remember our god is all about love and Jesus preached it. Love everybody and everything unconditionally...agree with your fellow man, and promote everything he suggests that doesn't directly hurt someone else.That's the way to be offense-free! :-P

sermonindex Mar 8, 2005

ooo... many apologies!

sermonindex Mar 8, 2005

The flipside of this is:all Jews, Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah's Witness, Buddists, Hindus, Krishnas, Taoists, Sikhs, Confucians, Baha'is, Jains, Shintos, Universalists, Scientologists, Zoroastrians, etc. are going to hell. Along with all those gone past. Looks like hell is going to be overflowing and heaven almost empty.I believe in a Just and Loving God. What kind of God do you believe in?Bub

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PTywama3 Mar 8, 2005

I think loving implies just, and that just implies full, impartial consideration.That being said, I don't know if God is going to be saddened every time he is forced to turn away another person from the throne, but that in respect to the decisions they made and in accordance with His provisions will have no choice but to do so.

sermonindex Mar 8, 2005

I beleive in a Just and Loving God. What kind of God do you believe in?It depends on your definition of "just". Say a serial killer murders a loved one of yours... and this person goes before the judge. Is the judge just if he send this person to prison? Your answer should be yes. He would be an unjust judge if he turned that person out in the street... agreed?So why would God, who is a just God... do any different?But, I know from previous conversations with you, Bubba, that you do not believe the Bible anyway... so really this is a mute point with you. Until you believe the Bible... the whole Bible... and interpret it the way it should be interpreted (literally)... you can not possibly understand.But thanx for jumping in anyway.Krispy

sermonindex Mar 8, 2005

in respect to the decisions they made and in accordance with His provisions will have no choice but to do so.the problem is that the decisions many of these people make are not informed by the Gospel whatsoever. Many have not been exposed to it at all. Will God judge these people the same way He judges those who lived with the Gospel their entire lives and unrepentently sinned throughout?Bub

sermonindex Mar 8, 2005

Krispy wrote:"you do not believe the Bible anyway."This is completely false. I definately believe in the Bible. But I view it in an entirely different manner than you do. For me it is a spiritual document. Tells the story of God's chosed people, the Jews. Tells us about the fall of mankind and how we can gain redemption through Christ Jesus.But its not a "history" book in that some of the stories in it are allegorical. Some relate the world view of the people who wrote it, and through the passage of time we have come to see how this world view was nieve or more of a story that has the purpose of relating a higher truth.Truth comes on many levels. The bible is spiritually accurate. It is Gods word as handed down through the ages by a falible man. It is rich in historical information about our religious heritage. Its just not a literal document.Bub

sermonindex Mar 8, 2005

Bubba... you do not believe in the creation account. You believe in Darwinism. You've told me that yourself.Let me ask you... do believe in hell?Krispy

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philologos Mar 8, 2005

Jake writes:Truth comes on many levels. The bible is spiritually accurate. It is Gods word as handed down through the ages by a falible man. It is rich in historical information about our religious heritage. Its just not a literal document.So it's truth based on fallacy. Just look how well my building looks; its only the foundations that are rotten. :-? BTW I find the title of this thread really offends me. We should never set out to offend anyone. The word really means to cause to stumble. Why would we want to cause anyone to stumble?Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: (1Co 10:32 KJV)

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Gideons Mar 8, 2005

I agree Ron, that's something we have to be very careful of. That's certainly one of my own fears is that I become a tinkling cymbal, which I have been at times. The Lord knows I've done this at times in my life and I've had to repent of it.Let's be courageous to speak the truth in love. If that's viewed as offensive so be it but my prayer is that other folks may see Christ in me. If others can't see a difference in my life due to Christ, then what do I have? They may not like it because it convicts them. That's what I hoping that Christians will convict others by the way they treat others and live their life.1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

sermonindex Mar 8, 2005

BTW I find the title of this thread really offends me. You know whats odd about that? It was implied on another thread today that I dont have a sense of humor. The title of this thread was meant as humor... and you now tell me that it's not funny.The title has a deeper meaning tho... which is this: Lets not weaken the message in order to not offend someone.Sorry you didnt get it.I do not condone being offensive in our presentation. (Even tho i can be guilty at times)Krispy

sermonindex Mar 8, 2005

philologos,If a dictionary or encyclopedia have errors, and most of them do, does it invalidate the rest of the information?Childrens stories are made up, but they have a truthful point to make for the listener. Because they are made up does not invalidate these truths.Our mystical God the Father communicates to all of us in ways that we can understand. But we have to look below the surface and reach with faith at hand to find these meanings.I understand the yearning for resolute truth in this world full of lies and misrepresentations. The Holy Ghost is at hand to meet this need. What more do you need?Bub

sermonindex Mar 8, 2005

..... sigh .....

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DezCall Mar 8, 2005

Dear Krispy,I understand your heart brother and I fully agree when you wrote:Lets not weaken the message in order to not offend someone.However, in light of some "regrettable offences" made here on this forum...well...it just doesn't fit in that well. I don't know...but maybe you could change the name?I had to think of a great hymn to encourage us all, our eyes focused on Christ:[font=Helvetica]"Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,With the cross of Jesus going on before.Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;Forward into battle see His banners go!RefrainOnward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,With the cross of Jesus going on before.At the sign of triumph Satan’s host doth flee;On then, Christian soldiers, on to victory!Hell’s foundations quiver at the shout of praise;Brothers lift your voices, loud your anthems raise.RefrainLike a mighty army moves the church of God;Brothers, we are treading where the saints have trod.We are not divided, all one body we,One in hope and doctrine, one in charity.RefrainCrowns and thrones may perish, kingdoms rise and wane,But the church of Jesus constant will remain.Gates of hell can never gainst that church prevail;We have Christ’s own promise, and that cannot fail."[/font]Greetings in Christ to you all, my fellow soldiers! :-),Paul

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RobertW Mar 8, 2005

BTW I find the title of this thread really offends me. For we all often offend. If any one offend not in word, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body too. (James 3:2 Darby)Some may stumble at the word being disobedient. Some may perchance stumble at that stumbling stone; which is Christ. But let none stumble because of my words or my words add an unnecessary offense to an already offensive Gospel. This is particularly true of babes in Christ. God Bless,-Robert

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philologos Mar 8, 2005

If a dictionary or encyclopedia have errors, and most of them do, does it invalidate the rest of the information?So how do you maintain confidence in the author of the dictionary who keeps getting the definitions wrong?

sermonindex Mar 8, 2005

I don't know...but maybe you could change the name?There... I did... does everyone like this title better?Everyone got all hung up on the title... and no one is talking about the article. Thats kinda like eating the plate and leaving your breakfast sitting on the table top.Krispy

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philologos Mar 8, 2005

I understand your heart brother and I fully agree when you wrote:

Lets not weaken the message in order to not offend someone.
to not weaken the message so not to offend is not the same a going out in order to offend.Now that you have changed the title of course no-one is going to understand the thread at all. The sub-thread 'let's offend some people' is a belligerent expression, and not helpful. I am not without a sense of humour usually, but the reason I kept out of the thread initially was that I just couldn't join myself to the spirit expressed in the original title.

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moreofHim Mar 8, 2005

BTW I find the title of this thread really offends me.I was going to say something similar but decided not to. Many people who come to SI may or may not understand this type of humor- especially if they are newer in their faith or are over-zealous themselves.I am wondering if this article is not being taken out of context, if it is not being used for another purpose than what it was written for. I don't think the author suggests that we go out and purposely find ways to offend. I don't hear Jesus saying in His day 'let's go out today and offend people."It was just a fact, that people were offended- and may it be said, that the religious of that day were most likely the ones offended because they thought they knew the truth. They had all the answers. They kept all the law to the T.Yes, the true gospel does offend on occasion. But it should not be a matter of thought. If we are in submission to Jesus Christ living in us everyday, He will lead us and direct us where to go and who to speak to and what to say. If He is truly living in us, we will display the fruits of the spirit in our living, in our attitudes and in our speaking.I think the idea that we have to tell everyone else what's wrong with them and then refuse to look at our selves is a mistake. if we spent more time looking in the mirror and letting the Lord examine our own hearts- we would do well. If you want to talk about offending people, especialy the religious, I have found that self examination (letting the Lord examine, really) has been the most offensive thing to my extended family members, etc... "You can't be perfect you know." They don't like to hear that you are willing to be examined because it makes them feel convicted. They don't like to see the humility it takes to be willing to grow and CHANGE constantly.And I might add, that many times unconditional love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfullness and self-control ARE offensive to people as well, especially the religious and those who feel they do not deserve to be treated in this way deep inside.Again, I wish we would think and pray a little before we post. I have been guilty of posting or replying quickly in the flesh but I find that if i seek the Lord's will first, needless words go unsaid, less damage is done and I have found that i have grown a bit by humbling myself and restraining myself.In His love, Chanin

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