Demons

Ravenhill said something that I have never heard before (not surprizing huh?) He said that demons are not fallen angels. That the fallen angels are locked in hell (jude 1:6) He wouldnt say where demons came from. He said to look it up yourself. I always thought it was clear in scripture that 1/3 of the angels fell and are now demons (evil spirits). What about these verses?Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? Mat 8:30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. Mat 8:31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. andRev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. I don't understand what Ravenhill was talking about. Can someone shed some light on this? By the way this was mentioned in his sermon called The Voice of God.

PreachParsly ...This very same topic is dealt with in my book ..."THE CALLED"https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=2289&forum=41&post_id=&refresh=Go... under ... I ENOCH - CHAPTER 5 ... i've listed pages 116 and 117 below ... But first in Gen.6 it says ...[1] And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,[2] That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.[3] And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.[4] There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.- The sons of God are actual angels- The giants, or Nepahalim, were the unholy offspring of the alliance between angels and humans- Demons are the spirits of these giants who when they were killed either by one another, or in the flood waters, could not go to either of the holding places, one full of light the other full of darkness, in whichGod stored mankinds spirits upon death, prior to Christ coming and opening up the way for us to go directly to heaven when we now die in Him ... So these hybrid, abnormal, wicked spirits couldn't go anywhere else but to roam the earth, and since they came from bodies, then their inclination was to inhabit bodies again so that they could continue to carry out whatever lust/sin it was that defined their lives ... In the chapter of my book entitled THE AFTERMATH (after the flood) it tells of where Noah had to pray to God in regards these demons because they were constantly harrassing mankind, and that God put two thirds of them in chains, while He left the one third here at satan's behest ... These are some of the things i found in the epigraphic (Enoch) writings (which many saints are afraid of), but i relied on Holy Spirits guidance and He did indeed tell me a great deal of what i didn't know ...i hope you will decide to read all five chapters, but if not i hope all of chapter 5, in the meantime heres a snippet of some explanation ...-116-After these things did Michael bring me once again before the Lord's throne, and the Lord's face. Without forethought I prostrated myself before the Lord of Spirits, and the Lord called me with His own mouth and said to me, Come forth Enoch and hear My words. Michael bade me to rise up, and approach the Lord of Host, and I did so with my head bowed low. The Lord Jah-el then continued His conversing with me and said, Fear not Enoch, you righteous man and scribe of righteousness. Come closer and hear My voice. Go say this to the Evil Watchers who have sent you to make intercession for them. Say to them, thus is the decree of the Lord Jah-el. You should intercede for men and not men for you. Why have you left yourproper station and lain with the daughters of men and defiled yourselves, and taken yourselves wives, and done like the children of men and begottengiants as your sons? You were once holy, spiritual, living the eternal life. You have defiled yourselves with the blood of women and have begotten children with the blood of flesh, and as the children of men havelusted after flesh. Therefore shall I give your sons the desire to take wives of the females born to you, and they shall impregnate them and beget children by them, and they shall destroy one another. You were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all the generations of the world. It was not appointed that wives should be given to you for-117-you are spiritual, and in heaven is your dwelling. Because you have perpetrated this gross error in bonds shall you be placed for all eternity, but first shall you see the slaughter of your beloved ones. shall be great and complete destruction amongst them. When they are killed one by the other, then shall evil spirits proceed from their corpses, because they are born of the union of spirit and flesh. They shall become evil spirits in the earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. As for the spirits of heaven in the heavens shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits which are born upon the earth on the earth shall they reside. The spirits that arise from the corpses of the giants shall afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, wage war, and work destruction upon the earth, and cause great calamity. These spirits have no need of food and drink yetthey hunger and thirst, and desire to cause offence. These spirits shall go forth from the corpses of your dead children and shall inhabit the children of men, as many as they may posses, because from bodies they have proceeded, and to inhabit bodies is their desire. From the days of slaughter, and destruction, and death of your offspring, from the souls of whose flesh the spirits having gone forth, shall destroy without incurringjudgment, thus shall they destroy until the day of consummation, the great judgment in which the age shall be consummated over you evil Watchers andthe godless.

Hmmm intersting.. I will definatly study this out. I guess my next question will be," When were the angels locked up?" They couldnt have been locked up when they were reproducing with humans? could they? I have heard very little of this before.. this is a very new doctrine to me. So I'm sure I will be asking lots of questions. By the way I havent ready your book yet. I plan on doing it soon though.

Amen ... Yes it is very interesting ... But according to the Book of Enoch there were only 200 of all the 1/3 of the angels that fell with satan, who materialized and worked this abomination, and they are the only ones who were locked up once the flood waters began to fall ... 195 of them are already in hell (the place of fiery torment) ... One according to Rev. 9:2-11 is imprisoned in a bottomless pit, along with what i believe to be the 2/3 of the roaming demons that God imprissoned upon Noah's plea, and in the Tribulation will appear as the locust of Revelation ... And four more according to Rev. 9:14 are presently abyssed under the river Euphrates, in modern day Iraq ... While satan, and all of the rest of the 1/3 that fell are still free, i believe until shortly after the culmination of the battle of Armageddon ... Star Wars, Lord of the Rings anf The Matrix ain't got nothing on God's story/plan thru the ages ... absolutely nothing! ... and to think that we're a part of it!Rev.9[2] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.[3] And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.[4] And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.[5] And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.[6] And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.[7] And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.[8] And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.[9] And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.[10] And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.[11] And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.[14] Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound under the great river Euphrates.

What are the reasons that the book of Enoch is not in the cannon?

PreachParsly you wrote;"What are the reasons that the book of Enoch is not in the cannon"?i don't rightly know why it didn't make the cut in the Western Church, meaning those descended out of Catholicism via Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation, even though Jude quoted from it in Jude.1:14 - And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints ... So as was stated by a history channel program on The Dead Sea Scrolls the early church, early saints, and of course the adherents of Judaism all knew of the book ... The irony is that Enoch is included in the Eastern Orthodox/Ethiopian Coptic Churches cannon ... Here's a thread on the Book of Enoch ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=2668&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=GoIHS,Br. R

What are the reasons that the book of Enoch is not in the cannon?Mainly because it is nonsense. The fact that a single point coincides with truth does not make it revelation. There are many comments from Job's friends which are true but the general thrust of their counsel was false.

To follow along with what Bro Ron is saying, to call the book of Enoch inspired because Jude quoted from it is to call the writings of Greek philosophers and poets inspired because Paul quoted from them. If Bro Ravenhill was of the opinion that demons weren't fallen angels then I would have to respectfully disagree with his opinion. A good rule of thumb to go by is to let the more clear passages of scripture interpret the obscure ones.

Thanks for the wisdom guys.. Yes I've always thought it was clear that demons were fallen angels. This site has really opened my eyes to all the different opinions (theologies) that are out there. Its making me search, think, and rethink everything that I have every been taught. Its great because I'm seeing how strong those trues are. It has strengthened me tremendously.

If Bro Ravenhill was of the opinion that demons weren't fallen angels then I would have to respectfully disagree with his opinion.I would have to hear more of what he was saying, but we know hardly anything about the angelic races. I have often made this point here, but it is something like two intersecting circles mankinds story and the angels' story. The intersection is really all we 'know' about the angelic races. We can form our best-fit-hypotheses, but that is the best we can do.Much of the teaching of angels and spirits is uncomfirmable from the scriptures. God grants revelation to those involved in these areas on a need-to-know basis. The theories propounded only whet people's appetities for more. There are whole industries that have developed around these speculations.I know it was ridiculed by Runsfeldts comments about knowledge are absolutely accurate.1.There are some things that we know.2.There are some things we don't know, and we know that we don't know them.3.There are some things that that we don't know, and we don't know that we don't know them.This figures a illustrations not even trying to be accurate but just to make the point. It may be that 1. we know 1% of what there is to know about the angelic races.2. we know that there is 19% that we know we don't know.3. it may be that the remainder is not only what we don't know, but we don't know that we don't know it.Any hypothesis based on this level of knowledge (ignorance?) should speak softly and walk humbly. As one cynic said 'it is better to keep your mouth shut and to give the appearance of ignorance, that to open it and remove all doubt'

It was mentioned in the sermon The Voice of God.. i believe it was in the first 10 mins of the sermon.

Yeah its at 9:12- 9:50 he talked about it.

I believe that the opinion that Ravenhill has on demons may come from Finis Dake, who was a contemperary with Ravenill, (i believe). Though I have not studied it enough to find sacisfactory evidence--Dake believes in that there was a PreAdmic creation and that demons are the "disinhabted spirits of a PreAdamite world". This theory is still popular in many place today and there are those that come in the store frequently for books dealing with or touching on the subject. I am not condeming nor am i condoning the theory. I simply have not given myself over to study it at this point in time. Again, I am not 100% that the slant Ravenhill was taking is based on Dake's teaching nor am i advocating it.

Yeah I've heard some about that theory. For instance they belive Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.Shows that the earth became void (since the word with can be translated into became) and that God destroyed the earth with a flood and then the world became... as the spirit of God moved over the waters. they also interperet2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. 2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. to prove this also.. since not all parished in the flood ie noah and his family. There are a few more scriptures that they put together to aid with this view.. i have forgotten the others.. I know alot of the Word of Faith crew belive this interpretation. Maybe this should be another thread.. if there is anyone who belive the interpretation above. or well just keep it here is fine with me. I have heard one teach on it in this matter but it has been along time...I have a tape somewhere... I havent really studied it out much. It would be interesting to know if Ravenhill belvied that for sure. I'm assuming he did from the statement in that sermon....

even though Jude quoted from it in Jude.1:14 - And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints...I think it's important to note that the book of Jude does not mention anything about a book of Enoch, it only says that Enoch prophesied. In Christ,Ron

This is true. The book of jasher is not cannon and it is even mentioned by name in Samuel, so is the book fo Gad. Sorry it's off topic, just wanted to throw that out there.Does anyone know of any video or media that deal EDUCATIONALLY with demons/ Something kind of like the posts only in video or audio form? A local pastr asked and i though this wouls be a good place to ask.

here is a sermon about the origin of Satan called Satan alive and well.. its by Hal Lindsey (on site)

Yeah I've heard some about that theory. For instance they beliveGen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.Shows that the earth became void (since the word with can be translated into became) and that God destroyed the earth with a flood and then the world became... as the spirit of God moved over the waters.PreachI'm not sure that these two things are necessarily related. The above is usually what is known as the Gap Theory. I listened to the Ravenhill audio. I think he probably did believe that demons were the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim.

Yeah ok , the Gap Theory, I forgot what it has been called.

FOR THE RECORD: NOWHERE IN MY PREVIOUS POSTS DID I SAY THE BOOK OF ENOCH WAS INSPIRED IN THE SAME CAPACITY AS THE BOOKS IN OUR BIBLE ...What i said was that the Jews, and early Jewish saints both knew of, and read The Book of Enoch, and that Jude quoted directly from The Book of Enoch, that's all ... But i guess we'd all have to admit that since Holy Spirit inspired Jude to include the quote, at least that "snippet of it is now considered inspired canon ...i do admit that i have not discarded "The Book of Enoch", or "The Book of Jubilees" for that matter, as complete nonsense, that's my opinion, and i thoroughly understand and accept as your oppinion brother Ron, or anyone else of the same opinion, your right to toss the book on the junk heap ... i'm not looking for an argument as to whose right or wrong in that either has nothing to do with our relationship with Jesus, i'm just throwing out info as to how, and why, brother Ravenhill may have come to his conclusions that demons are different than the fallen angels, as i do as well, and that being far less pedantic than some i have no trouble imagining that they are in fact the wicked roaming spirits of the dead Nephilim, and even that it was possible that there were so many of them roaming the earth after the flood that Noah (as written in the book of Jubilees) had to beseech God to do something about them ... As i also have no trouble imagining that for my reasoning it makes sense to me that if they once possessed bodies, they'd be hell bent on finding new ones so as to physically be able to carry out (and enjoy) the dastardly deeds that they once had done pre flood ... Case in point, i think that all serial killers are in fact possessed of a demon/demons who's kick back in pre flood times was murdering ... The same as i think some folk being addicted to all types of abominable sexual appetites are possessed in a same manner ... But as i said before, these are but my own, personal oppinions ... If yours are opposite, more power to you, i don't care, it doesn't matter, i ain't mad ... OK! ... Whew ... Now that all that is out of the way ...JUST FOR YOUR INFO AS TO WHY SOME WESTERN CHRISTIANS (AND EASTERN AND ETHIOPIC) MAY BELIEVE THAT DEMONS ARE THE DISEMBODIED SPIRITS OF THE NEPHILIM ... How you treat this info is entirely up to you ...Gen.6[1] And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,[2] That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.[3] And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.[4] There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.BOOK OF ENOCHhttp://www.nazarene.net/enoch/enoch.htmlHISTORY OF THE BOOK OF ENOCHhttp://reluctant-messenger.com/enoch.htm [Chapter 15]1 And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: 'Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous 2 man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice. And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: "You should intercede" for men, and not men 3 for you: Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children 4 of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons? And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die 5 and perish. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget 6 children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. But you were formerly 7 spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling. 8 And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon 9 the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; 10 they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless 12 hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.[Chapter 16]1 From the days of the slaughter and destruction and death of the giants, from the souls of whose flesh the spirits, having gone forth, shall destroy without incurring judgement -thus shall they destroy until the day of the consummation, the great judgement in which the age shall be 2 consummated, over the Watchers and the godless, yea, shall be wholly consummated." And now as to the watchers who have sent thee to intercede for them, who had been aforetime in heaven, (say 3 to them): "You have been in heaven, but all the mysteries had not yet been revealed to you, and you knew worthless ones, and these in the hardness of your hearts you have made known to the women, and through these mysteries women and men work much evil on earth." 4 Say to them therefore: " You have no peace."BOOK OF JUBILEEShttp://reluctant-messenger.com/book_jubilees.htm[Chapter 10]1 And in the third week of this jubilee the unclean demons began to lead astray the children of2 the sons of Noah, and to make to err and destroy them. And the sons of Noah came to Noah their father, and they told him concerning the demons which were leading astray and blinding and3 slaying his sons' sons. And he prayed before the Lord his God, and said:'God of the spirits of all flesh, who hast shown mercy unto meAnd hast saved me and my sons from the waters of the flood,And hast not caused me to perish as Thou didst the sons of perdition;For Thy grace has been great towards me,And great has been Thy mercy to my soul;Let Thy grace be lift up upon my sons,And let not wicked spirits rule over themLest they should destroy them from the earth.4 But do Thou bless me and my sons, that we may increase and Multiply and replenish the earth.5 And Thou knowest how Thy Watchers, the fathers of these spirits, acted in my day: and as for these spirits which are living, imprison them and hold them fast in the place of condemnation, and let them not bring destruction on the sons of thy servant, my God; for these are malignant, and6 created in order to destroy. And let them not rule over the spirits of the living; for Thou alone canst exercise dominion over them. And let them not have power over the sons of the righteous7 from henceforth and for evermore.' And the Lord our God bade us to bind all. And the chief of the spirits, Mastema (satan), came and said: 'Lord, Creator, let some of them remain before me, and let them harken to my voice, and do all that I shall say unto them; 8 for if some of them are not left to me, I shall not be able to execute the power of my will on the sons of men; for these are for corruption and leading astray before my judgment, for great is the wickedness of the sons of men.'9 And He said: Let the tenth part of them remain before him, and let nine parts descend into the10 place of condemnation.' And one of us He commanded that we should teach Noah all their11 medicines; for He knew that they would not walk in uprightness, nor strive in righteousness. And we did according to all His words: all the malignant evil ones we bound in the place of condemna-12 tion and a tenth part of them we left that they might be subject before Satan on the earth. And we explained to Noah all the medicines of their diseases, together with their seductions, how he13 might heal them with herbs of the earth. And Noah wrote down all things in a book as we instructed him concerning every kind of medicine. Thus the evil spirits were precluded from14 (hurting) the sons of Noah. And he gave all that he had written to Shem, his eldest son; for he15 loved him exceedingly above all his sons. And Noah slept with his fathers, and was buried on16 Mount Lubar in the land of Ararat. Nine hundred and fifty years he completed in his life