Is there a sin nature?

I will start with my position so that it doesn't seem like I'm trying to argue. I'm honestly searching scripture and looking for the answer. I pray that you will not be upset in answering, but through love you would explain your point clearly with scripture.

Ok. From what I read in scripture I see no direct link to a sin nature. The closest I have found it this, Rom 5:12 NASB - [12] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

But still even in this I see no nature just plain facts that all have sinned. I BELIEVE, no hard fact, but think that the reason we sin is because that God is away/apart from us starting off. When we are born we start off alone so since God is the only good, Mar 10:18 NASB - [18] And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone." We must fall because He is not there, not because we are bent toward sin.

I believe fundamentally that being "saved", converted is the restoration of that relationship God intended. So by that we have God and thus since God is good we can resist sin, because of Christ in His work on the cross, providing the Holy Spirit to empower us.

This is just a quick thought that is not well explained, but I would like to hear input with well clear explanation please along with scripture please.

Thanks much and In Love,
Joe

Now let me start by saying you must put away your doctrine and be free from anything that might hinder your understanding… 2 Cor. 4:4 declares that it is the god of this world who blinds the mind of our understanding; he wants to play down sin and hide our desperate condition from us.

The exceeding sinfulness of sin can only exposed when the Spirit turns the light of God's law upon our conscience and heart. What is needed is an inward revelation from God, giving a deep consciousness of what I am in His sight, this will cause you to loathe and condemn yourself, resulting in a bitter sorrow, a holy horror and repentance.

Job saw his true condition…

Job 42: 5-6“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.”

David saw his true condition...

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psalm 51:5

Paul saw his true condition..

Romans 7: 17-20 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me

Where did the sin dwell? In Him

That’s why he cried O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Quote: So by that we have God and thus since God is good we can resist sin, because of Christ in His work on the cross, providing the Holy Spirit to empower us.

The work of the cross is not so we can resist sin, the work of the cross was to destroy the Old man the body of death… Rom 6:6

Why-----so that the body of sin might be destroyed

Why-----so that we should no longer serve sin

When Paul cried out O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? He was crying out to be delivered from the Old man that Adamic nature, the body of sin…

Why-----because he didn’t wanted to serve sin that was in him Roms 7:20

Hi Joe

I do not find that enough scriptural support to convince me that men have a sinful nature.

It seems from my research that such teachings started with St Augustine.

Here is what Paris Reidhead had to say about the doctrine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHgsZv1JyJE

Here is Excerpts from Charles G. Finney's Sermon
THE EXCUSES OF SINNERS :
Men plead a sinful nature for their excuse. And pray, what is this sinful nature? Do you mean by it that every faculty and even the very essence of your constitution were poisoned and made sinful in Adam, and came down in this polluted state by inheritance to you? Do you mean that you were so born in sin that the substance of your being is all saturated with it, and so that all the faculties of your constitution are themselves sin? Do you believe this?
I admit if this were true, it would make out a hard case. A hard case indeed! Until the laws of my reason are changed, it would compel me to speak out openly and say--Lord, this is a hard case, that Thou shouldst make my nature itself a sinner, and then charge the guilt of its sin upon me! I could not help saying this; the deep echoings of my inner being would proclaim it without ceasing, and the breaking of ten thousand thunderbolts over my head would not deter me from thinking and saying so. The reason God has given me would forever affirm it.

But the dogma is an utter absurdity. For, pray, what is sin? God answers--"transgression of law." And now you hold that your nature is itself a breach of the law of God--nay, that it has always been a breach of God's law, from Adam to the day of your birth; you hold that the current of this sin came down in the veins and blood of your race--and who made it so? Who created the veins and blood of man? From whose hand sprang this physical constitution and this mental constitution? Was man his own creator? Did sin do a part of the work in creating your physical and your mental constitution? Do you believe any such thing? No; you ascribe your nature and its original faculties to God, and upon Him, therefore, you charge the guilty authorship of your "sinful nature."

But how strange a thing is this! If man is in fault for his sinful nature, why not condemn man for having blue or black eyes? The fact is, sin never can consist in having a nature, nor in what nature is; but only and alone in the bad use which we make of our nature. This is all. Our Maker will never find fault with us for what He has Himself done or made; certainly not. He will not condemn us, if we will only make a right use of our powers--of our intellect, our sensibility, and our will. He never holds us responsible for our original nature. If you will observe, you will find that God has given no law prescribing what sort of nature and constitutional powers we should have. He has given no law on these points, the transgression of which, if given, might somewhat resemble the definition of sin. But now since there is no law about nature, nature cannot be a transgression.

Here let me say, that if God were to make a law prescribing what nature or constitution a man must have, it could not possibly be otherwise than unjust and absurd, for the reason that man's nature is not a proper subject for legislation, precept, and penalty, inasmuch as it lies entirely without the pale of voluntary action, or of any action of man at all. And yet thousands of men have held the dogma that sin consists in great part in having a sinful nature. Yes, through long ages of past history, grave theologians have gravely taught this monstrous dogma; it has resounded from pulpits, and has been stereotyped for the press, and men have seemed to be never weary of glorifying this dogma as the surest test of sound orthodoxy! Orthodoxy!! There never was a more infamous libel on Jehovah! It would be hard to name another dogma which more violently outrages common sense. It is nonsense--absurd and utter NONSENSE! I would to God that it were not even worse than nonsense! Think what mischief it has wrought! Think how it has scandalized the law, the government, and the character of God! Think how it has filled the mouths of sinners with excuses from the day of its birth to this hour!

Now I do not mean to imply that the men who have held this dogma have intelligently insulted God with it. I do not imply that they have been aware of the impious and even blasphemous bearings of this dogma upon Jehovah;--I am happy to think that some at least have done all this mischief ignorantly. But the blunder and the mischief have been none the less for the honest ignorance in which they were done.

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs23.htm

Amen to that, proudpapa!

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

This video has some really good insights.
Augustine and Original Sin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q

Protestantism has imbibed more than they realize from this Catholic Church "father".

Pilgrim

Protestantism is Augustinianism.

Hi Pilgrim,
I watched most of the video when you posted it before, I liked it, much of the research came away with the same conclusion that my research has led me to

Hi Joe. I too have become interested in this area in recent years and as I have looked at the Bible (instead of what is said about the Bible), I have found no evidence for a sinful nature.

As you say, one of the main passages used in support of sinful nature is Romans 5 I stepped through the implications of each phrase and became convinced that there was indeed no definite teaching on a sinful nature. Likewise, most of the Scriptures offered by proponents of a sinful nature are just admissions that the one speaking has sinned, but never is it attributed to a sinful nature.

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Teaching about the sin nature is all through the bible just all you need is for God to open your eyes..

That’s what happen to me after praying and fasting God opened my eyes, he open my eyes to the fact that sin nature remained in me after conversion and he opened my eyes to see that he has made a way for you to be set free from that nature.. When I saw that nature in me I wept for a month all that could every time I went to pray was get on my knees and weep..

But I thank God that he spoke to me that there was a cure for our pitiful condition..

Since that day when reading my bible I see things differently it’s there in the scriptures all through the scriptures the problem and the cure..

Hidden in plain sight…

Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel

In Ephesians we are told that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was a mystery. However, Jesus told the Jews to search the scriptures because these testified about him. As we know the Jews did not understand the scriptures and did not embrace the Gospel of Jesus. We can clearly see that while Paul and the other apostles used the Old Testament as the basis for their message, very few of the Jewish leadership understood it. So was it hidden from them only? Or did they just choose not to see it?

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began.

In this letter to the church, God declares that which was being preached came as a result of a revelation being given. A revelation is a revealing of that which was hidden from plain view. It was written in their language, but they did not see it or perceive it.

by proudpapa on 2013/4/26 21:15:38

Hi Pilgrim,
I watched most of the video when you posted it before, I liked it, much of the research came away with the same conclusion that my research has led me to.

Glad you watched it. Scott did a very good job, I thought. He was raised Catholic, came to Christ, sat under Calvinist teaching and then got delivered from that and made the Augustine and Original Sin video. Scott employs some clarity on the subject I have not seen before.

God bless,
Pilgrim

Some "teachers" say you sin, because you have a "sin nature", and even after being born of the spirit ("old man" dead), they believe the same thing.

So, if you sin, BECAUSE you have a "Sin Nature", then what made Adam and Eve sin?

Does your logic apply to them? Did they sin BECAUSE they had a SIN NATURE?

No, they did not. They were tempted (which is not a sin), by the TEMPTER, and then drawn away from the TRUTH by choosing to lust after that which was forbidden. Is the knowledge of sin, sin? No. But choosing to imbibe that knowledge (become intimate with it, partake of it) is sin. Choosing the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" over the Knowledge of the Holy (Christ who is Truth), is sin.

So, no sin nature involved at all in Adam and Eve's decision to obey the lust of their FLESH rather than the voice of the Lord.

Sin Nature was introduced by the NIV. Most of you know the story about this, so I won't bore you.

So, can anyone answer why Adam and Eve sinned if they did not have a sin nature?

Pilgrim

It is clear that the bible does not use the term 'sin nature' and as has been pointed out the use of this term by the NIV has greatly distorted the truth. The word is 'flesh' not sinful nature.
What the bible does say is that there is 'an old man' (Adamic nature if you will)) and there is the 'flesh'.

The bible teaches us that the 'old man' was crucified with Christ (Romans 6:6) As a result we are no longer under the power of Sin in the flesh and can choose not to sin.

So those who are truly regenerated (born again) do not have a sinful nature as the old Adamamic nature has been crucified with Christ and we have the new nature of Christ(Galatians 2:20). We do have the flesh which is subject to sin, but we can mortify this flesh because of the new nature. The flesh is NOT the sinful nature as mis-translated by the NIV.

I would disagree with some here who think that no one has a sin nature. All who are unregenerate are still in Adam and not in Christ. As such they have a rebellious (sinful) nature. Otherwise what is the old man that is crucified with Christ? Also see Ephesians 2:3 that says we WERE by 'nature' children of wrath.
1 Corinthians 15:22 says that in Adam all die, even so all in Christ shall be made alive.
Jesus Christ is called the 'last' Adam, but the second 'man' (1 Corinthians 15:45-47). As the last Adam He 'became sin' and put an end to Adam on the cross, hence we can say we our old man was crucified with Him. As the second man He is the first of a new race of man (not descended from Adam), hence were are born again from above and we have a new nature.

To answer Pilgrims's question about Adam and Eve sinning without a sin nature. Absolutely they did. However once they did fall, then sin entered the human race and as 1 Corinthians 15 says 'all died'. Died spiritually not just physically. Being by nature a descendant of Adam and inheriting sin does not excuse anyone sinning.

These are my thoughts.

Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man.

of unclean lips

Man is not guilty for being man, he is guilty because he holds the truth.

I have not formed an opinion on this subject, but there is this scripture in Ephesians 2:3: "among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others" (NKJV)

By saying that we are by nature children of wrath, does that mean we have a sin nature?

Hi Heydave,

I am glad that we can agree that the NIV 'has greatly distorted the truth'.

Heydave wrote /////I would disagree with some here who think that no one has a sin nature. All who are unregenerate are still in Adam and not in Christ. As such they have a rebellious (sinful) nature. Otherwise what is the old man that is crucified with Christ?/////

Ephesians 4 tells us what the old man is: v 22 That ye put off concerning the ((former conversation)) the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

The old man is the "former conversation" not some mystical sin that is part of the substance of the soul passed on thru conception.

Heydave wrote ///Ephesians 2:3 that says we WERE by 'nature' children of wrath.///

Eph 2:3 is also clearly speaking of the natural course of man the "former conversation" : "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind."

further more Ephesians clearly tells us :
" Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."

Paul is saying that men are going to try to decieve us with vain words, telling us that it is not the (things) (the disobedience) that we do, but something else that cause us to be children of wrath

Heydave wrote /////1 Corinthians 15:22 says that in Adam all die, even so all in Christ shall be made alive./////

All of Adams offspring Die! agreed

Heydave wrote ////Jesus Christ is called the 'last' Adam, but the second 'man' (1 Corinthians 15:45-47). As the last Adam He 'became sin' and put an end to Adam on the cross, hence we can say we our old man was crucified with Him. As the second man He is the first of a new race of man (not descended from Adam), hence were are born again from above and we have a new nature.////

1 Corinthians 15:45-47 is not at all speaking of a sinful nature.

Heydave is 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 speaking of a post fall or prefall Adam ??

Heydave wrote /// 1 Corinthians 15 says 'all died'. Died spiritually not just physically.///

Paul says "I was alive without the law once" (born innocent) : but when the commandment came,(age of accountability) sin revived,(revived from one generation to the next, natural course of man ever since Adam.) and I died. (when guilt entered Pauls soul, he calls it death)

Thank you all for your wonderful posts! I'm sorry it has took me so long to respond. I have been super busy. I'm glad there are like minds with me. I am in a holiness school currently and I just don't see their doctrine, but they have a love for God. I just don't see the scriptures the way they explain them. Thank you so much for your answers!

In Love,
Joe

Amen Joe.

"Love for God is not in question", but it is important to know that sin no longer has to reign in our body and we no longer have to obey it in the lusts of the flesh.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Knowing that being "In Christ" (if you remain in Christ) sets us free from sin we no longer are a slave to sin and do not have to yield to it, anymore.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Wrong teaching has led many to believe that they are just freed from the guilt of sin, but not the power of sin.

God is Recovering the Truth of Godliness in the Believer, Today
http://jesusourallinall.blogspot.com/2012/09/god-is-recovering-truth-of-godliness-in.html

Pilgrim

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Who sold us into slavery? Who is the ruler of this flesh of death I live in.

Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Sin nature; Yes. Set free and delivered from this nature and death; Praise God, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord I am free from sin and death but still live in the flesh with all the old man body pulls which only the Christ by the Holy Spirit in me can make me free indeed. Some of the old man body pulls get less and less and some go away completely, but some hang on for dear life and like a roaring lion on the prowl seeking whom he may devour and yet "1 John 1:7-10 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi murrcolr,

Thanks for the reply. I am not sure if you communicated what you hoped to, so please let me share with you how your post reads to someone besides yourself.

First, you have a "reproof". Then you let us know that we need God to "open our eyes" because this teaching is "all through the Bible", yet you didn't give a single verse that supports sin nature in your post. You did say it was "hidden in plain sight". Just a comment on this thought. In the first century, there was a group that associated with Christianity that claimed there was a specially revealed "hidden knowledge" about God. These were the Gnostics ("those who know"). So, potentially good points in your post, but when you cite Paul, please be sure to bring a clear teaching like he did. Paul didn't preach a cryptic message and tell his followers to fast and pray so that they could understand it. Although that is what you are telling us, Christianity doesn't work that way. I agree that fasting is good, but Jesus indicated it was more for spiritual strength than to have revelations.