WHY DIDN'T THE WELSH AND THE AZUSA STREET REVIVALS MEET ?

E

endlessjoe May 1, 2013

I spent much part of the month of April reflecting on all I know of the Azusa Street Revival and also thanking God for that move of His Spirit. This is because records tell me that that move of God started gathering momentum at about the second week of April 1906.

As I reflected on the Welsh and d Azusa Street Revivals and the links that seem to exist between them, one question that always pop up in my mind is "why didn't the Welsh and the Azusa Street Revivals meet?"

First of all, this question found the basis for a moment's consideration in my mind because of the link that seem to exist between both revivals and the hunger in the hearts of the leaders of these revivals on both sides of d Atlantic for a bigger outpouring even at the peak of God's work in their locality.

Its on record that about a year before Revival broke out in California, Brother Bartlemann began and maintained a consistent correspondence with Evan Roberts. Brother Bartlemann would later became one of the leaders in the Azusa street move. At the request of Frank Bartlemann, Evan Roberts listed for him some principles for securing Revival and bade him to pursue it. I've had reasons to treasure some of Evan Roberts's letters to Bartlemann most dearly. The one Evan told Bartlemann "what can I ever say to encourage you in this terrible fight" makes me very emotional.

Evan Roberts also promised to mobilise prayers for a God-sent Revival in California. "May God send Revival to California" he prayed.

Its also on record that Brother Seymour and the other leaders in Azusa still desired and anticipated a greater outpouring than that which they were enjoying at the time at 312 Azusa Street. This could be seen from the letter Brother Seymour wrote to Dr Parham in which he is said to have expressed the hope that the coming of Dr Parham will lead to the outbreak of what he called "the great one."

While the leaders in Azusa were desiring an outpouring greater than what they had at the time, Evan Roberts was also praying for and desiring same. In one of his writings at d time, he spoke of a Revival far greater than the Welsh Revival of which he said he'd been asking for permission to help bring it about. In d very next sentence, after what seemed as if he couldn't secure any Divine assurance of his participation in this mother-of-all Revivals, he said "thousands shall do more than we have done."

Over 100 years later, we having the privilege of overview know that no other Revival in d 20th century had surpassed their's in glory. Its as if the "great one" they kept refering to is still ahead.

My question is; when the leaders in Azusa sensed the need for a more experienced hand to offer leadership to that move of God, why didn't they send for Evan Roberts instead of Dr Parham? Dr Parham came with a critical spirit and in his own words "found conditions worse than he had anticipated" as is always d case for those who approach every new move of God with an already biased mind. They always find "conditions worse than they had anticipated."

My next question is, when the leaders in Azusa found Dr Parham's spirit too harsh to be accomodated in d Azusa work and had to show him the door, why on earth did Bro Bartlemann not suggest Evan Roberts's name to Bro Seymour and d others?

And then the million dollar question: after Evan Roberts had written to a Brother in California outlining certain principles for securing Revival and also promised to mobilize prayers for an outpouring in California, why wasn't he tempted to cross the Atlantic when the news of d Azusa street Revival outbreak topped the charts around d globe?

Obviously, nothing gladdens the heart of an intercessor like an answered prayer! Many a prayer-warrior would traverse air, land and sea just to witness first-hand what God has done in answer to his/her prayers. Afterall in Luke2:24-38, Simeon and Anna who'd prayed for "the consolation of Isreal" conquered the barrier of old age and rushed up to d temple to see the infant Jesus just before he's dedicated. I guess they were so excited to see the answer to their prayers that they forgot the weakness posed by old age.

So why didn't Evan Roberts cross the Atlantic? Wouldn't a contact with d "American dream" have made him into an international property as was d case with his other compatriots like J.Edwin Orr, Smith Wigglesworth, Ravenhill, Derek Prince and others from d British Isles ? (This is just for teasing sake, I do not believe these individuals wouldn't have become public properties had they not been to America).

As I pondered on these endless questions, I remembered that Dr F.B Meyer -who was one of d most celebrated preachers in Britain at d turn of d twentieth century- expressed happiness that Evan Roberts wouldn't take any step presumptiously unless he was assured of Divine approbation.

In his own words Dr Meyer said "I have d privilege of personal friendship with Evan Roberts and greatly thank God that he will not go in front of the Divine Spirit, but is willing to stand aside and remain in the background, unless he is perfectly sure that the Spirit of God is moving him. It is a profound lesson for us all."

Could that be the reason? Could it be that Evan Roberts was so sensitive to d Spirit that he was hindered from crossing the Atlantic like the case of Apostle Paul (Acts16:6-7) was hindered by the Spirit to preach in Asia and Bithynia?

Could it also be that the same Spirit had prevented the hidden motions of the hearts of the leaders at Azusa -especially Bro Bartlemann- from ever thinking of inviting Evan Roberts to grace the Azusa Street Revival with his presence?

The truth is only Eternity would answer these questions satisfactorily. Until then its human for us to speculate.

The fact remains that both Evan Roberts and Bro Seymour didn't consider the Welsh & the Azusa street revivals of 1904/5 and 1906 respectively the greatest ever in Church history. They both saw a greater Revival ahead and tried to reach out for it. It seemed Evan Roberts knew its not for him while Brother William Seymour reached out for it by inviting Dr Charles Parham whom he thought would prepare them better for it.

Hypothetically, I assume that the course of recorded history wouldve been different had Evan Roberts crossed the Atlantic especially at the peak of what God did in Azusa Street in California.

I submit that if those two Revivals had met, the spiritual synergy generated wouldve caused a ***SPARK*** never before seen in all of Church history. Chances are that such a move wouldve sparked off a wave of evangelism that wouldve prepared the World for rapture long before even the Antichrist is ready to take over. That means we'd have had d rapture before certain structures necessary for the soft-landing of the Antichrist were already in place. Structures like d modern Indepedent State of Isreal which ddnt exist till 1948; United Nations which is necessary platform for one world govt & religion; Internet banking & radio frequency Identification device RFID all necessary for d fulfillment of Rev13:17 and a host of other structures.

If those two revivals had met and d relevant "hypothetical synergy created," it means our LORD wouldve come a little earlier and the list of things that wouldve been out of place would go on for ever.

D LORD in His infinite Wisdom restricted those brothers just to create the opportunity for my generation. While we wonder why the Welsh and d Azusa Street Revivals did not meet and why Evan Roberts, Brother Seymour and their class of Revivalist only hit revivals once in their lifetime and never struck again, we must remain humble and grateful to D LORD that those brothers who went ahead of us were restricted from pioneering the last move of God just to create the opportunity for you and Brother Emeka.

Brother Emeka writes from the heart of tropical Africa - Nigeria!

M

murrcolr May 1, 2013

The Greatest ever Revival is coming everyday that passes is one more day closer.

Colin

Also in the heart of tropical Africa - Nigeria!

E

endlessjoe May 2, 2013

Each time I hear that Brother Collin, some part of me is stirred. Can't wait to witness this move of God that will produce the Church without spot; without wrinkle.

As I walk through the streets of my neighbourhood, I see a massive influx of muslims from northern Nigeria who're fleeing the activities of d dreaded Boko Haram terrorists. Tried preaching to one of them some days ago but gave up in frustration due to language barrier.

Even as I gave up in frustration, I was imagining what it'd be like if we'd experienced this outpouring we're yearning for. Language then would never be a barrier. We wouldn't need to struggle arguing with Muslims. The very atmosphere we carry would bring their arguments under subjection.

A Pastor told me never to expect a repetition of what happened in Azusa. He believed those times are gone. Popular definitions of revival here is so diverse that the term itself gets sullied in d mulky waters of definition. Am told that there's now a revival against corruption; against electoral malpractice , revival of properity, etc.

I think its a subtle trick of d enemy to so confuse the term "Revival" with ambigous & far sweeping definitions that the real meaning of it would get sullied by default.

I wish the LORD by His Spirit would hasten our preparedness and then pour out His Spirit and save us from all these embarrassment.

Am American wrote a book entitled "don't start the revolution without me," on a personal basis, if I have my way, I'd pray "please LORD don't this Revival without me or when am gone."

M

murrcolr May 2, 2013

Quote: I think its a subtle trick of d enemy to so confuse the term "Revival" with ambigous & far sweeping definitions that the real meaning of it would get sullied by default

If we truly expect a move of God, God stepping down and affecting whole country's then we can only expect for his people that a part of it to be Holy, any other than that would be a farce...

Part of Duncans Campbell's testimony

Will you make me as holy as a saved man can be?’ It was Robert Murray M’Cheyne's prayer. Instantly the power of God the Holy Ghost fell upon me on that horse's back, bringing cleansing and renewal until I felt as pure as an angel." "The consciousness of God was so real that he thought he was going straight to heaven. But God had other work for him to do, and this experience was preparation for it

Quote: Even as I gave up in frustration, I was imagining what it'd be like if we'd experienced this outpouring we're yearning for. Language then would never be a barrier. We wouldn't need to struggle arguing with Muslims. The very atmosphere we carry would bring their arguments under subjection

Here is an part of Duncan Campbell testimony.you find this part in it..

Oh, I was weak. My voice wasn't strong. I began to talk about Jesus in Gaelic. There wasn't a man there who could understand me. To them it was a strange language, but a strange stillness and peace came upon the whole casualty station. One young lad said, ‘Trooper, can’t you speak to us in English? We are seeking Jesus.’

"It wasn't long," said Duncan, "before I discovered powers resident within me that were fighting against my desire for godliness and holiness, a power well entrenched in my nature, a power that battled against my best endeavors. So with the Apostle Paul I frequently cried, ‘Oh wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death? The good that I would, I cannot do, and the evil that I hate, that I do.’ However, the day came when that was changed, and changed under very strange circumstances, when my mother’ prayers and my plea for deliverance were answered. I found myself severely wounded in a cavalry charge outside Amiens, the last cavalry charge of the British army, April 12, 1918. It is a terrible thing to be in a cavalry charge when machine guns are levelled at you, firing five and six hundred rounds a minute. That was what we had to face on that fearful morning. I lay wounded on the battlefield; the blood was flowing freely; I believed I was dying. I was very conscious of my unfitness to appear before the judge of all the earth. Two things troubled me: I felt so impure, and I knew that I hadn’t led any soul to the Saviour. We had often sung on the farm: ‘Must I empty-handed go? Must I meet my Saviour so? Not one soul with which to greet Him? Must I empty-handed go? Could I but recall them now, Oh, the years of sin I've wasted! I would give them to my Saviour. To His will I'd gladly bow.’

But I was dying, I thought. And then, a miraculous thing happened. The Canadian horses were called out to a second charge. They charged over that bloody battlefield toward the enemy in a body. Men were dying; men were lying wounded; the whole field was littered with men and horses in distress. A horse's hoof struck me in the spine. The mark is still there, and I must have groaned. In the providence of God, that groan was heard by a Canadian trooper. After the charge, again in the providence of God, that trooper came right to the place where I lay and saw that I was bleeding profusely. He lifted me as gently as he could, placed me on the horse's back, dug the stirrup right into the horse’s side; and that steed galloped with fury toward the casualty clearing station. Would I be alive to reach the casualty clearing station? Would my soul be in eternity before my body was lifted from the horse? These were the thoughts that coursed through my mind. As I lay on that horse's back, I remembered a prayer that my father frequently offered at family worship. I prayed the prayer from my heart, ‘Oh, God, I'm dying. Will you make me as holy as a saved man can be?’ It was Robert Murray M’Cheyne's prayer. Instantly the power of God the Holy Ghost fell upon me on that horse's back, bringing cleansing and renewal until I felt as pure as an angel." "The consciousness of God was so real that he thought he was going straight to heaven. But God had other work for him to do, and this experience was preparation for it...The sequel to this divine visitation gave him his first taste of the supernatural work that can accompany the touch of the Holy Spirit upon His people. (Andrew Woolsey) "Some people say that there isn't such a thing as a definite experience of the Holy Ghost subsequent to conversion," said Campbell. "My conversion was real; my regeneration was wonderful; but it paled before the revelation of Jesus that came to me on that horse's back.

Then the horse stood at the casualty clearing station. Loving hands lifted me and laid me down on a stretcher. The place was crowded with wounded and dying, mostly Canadians. I was immediately aware of a sense of great power bearing me up. While being treated for my wounds, a nurse began to sing in Gaelic, ‘There is a fountain filled with blood’, and I responded by trying to sing in Gaelic, and what I sang was a psalm: ‘Oh, thou my soul, bless God the Lord; and all that in me is, be stirred up. His holy name, I will magnify and bless.’ Oh, I was weak. My voice wasn't strong. I began to talk about Jesus in Gaelic. There wasn't a man there who could understand me. To them it was a strange language, but a strange stillness and peace came upon the whole casualty station. One young lad said, ‘Trooper, can’t you speak to us in English? We are seeking Jesus.’ Men with little thought of God, moved by the Spirit of God, making His impact upon sinners. God swept in and within an hour, seven Canadian wounded soldiers were deeply convicted of their sin and trusted in Christ. That's why the baptism of the Holy Ghost in its final analysis is the revelation of Jesus. I know that when that baptism of the Holy Ghost came upon me on that horse's back, the supreme reality was Jesus. Oh, how wonderful it was! There in the casualty clearing station, wave after wave of divine realization swept through; sinners cried to God for mercy and sinners found the Saviour." "In his weakness," wrote Woolsey, "Duncan praised God for His wonderful goodness and felt an overwhelming desire to see His power displayed in such glorious acts of mercy…He realized then, that while our present surroundings…are the fields in which we fight the battles of faith, it is in the spiritual realm that we win. This is the secret of spiritual power. Consequently, a new thirst for God, a thirst for revival, a thirst to see repeated manifestations of God’s saving power, took hold of Duncan Campbell, as he left an earthly battlefield to devote himself to the spiritual war from which there is no discharge."

You can read the full testimony here

http://www.calltoprayer.org.uk/revivalpreacher9.html

or listen to it here

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=7

B

brothagary May 2, 2013

thank you both for posting ,,iv herd the testimony of cambel a few times now ,,this is the first time iv read it

sermonindex May 2, 2013

my beloved brother Emeka,

what a JOYOUS topic to ponder, AND what wonderful ministries that were given to these men by God.

its 0.745 here in upper Midwest of the US, and I have to drive a hundred miles in about 10 minutes!!....i'm laughing, because there is a lot on my heart I wish to share and ponder with you.

one quick thought is this, have you noticed, in days past, it was always missionaries from what is called the "west", that would go to the "heart of Africa"?...or to India?...China? etc.

this has been on my heart for ten years now, witnessing the Church in North America thru eyes of a Hebrew who follows Jesus....what if.....God sends missionaries FROM Africa to North America?....pray on that would you?

the second quick point I wish to share is this, have you read "Instrument of Revival" by Brynmore Jones?.....a wonderful book written about the ministry of Evan Roberts.

here it is on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/An-Instrument-Revival-Brynmore-Jones/dp/0882706675/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1367498378&sr=8-2&keywords=instrument+of+revival

I meekly urge in the Leading of the Lord to acquire this book as soon as you can, it might serve to answer the question you ask. If said acquisition is difficult, please let me know, my beloved brother.

Where I live, is in many ways, akin to the Scottish Hebridean Islands, circa 1949, i'm near a town called Viroqua in the state of Wisconsin...many many church buildings...and many many souls, who would rather scream, shout for the local football team, all the while pouring beer down their throats...I judge them not. i'm only giving you background........so dear one, I have to get in my vehicle NOW!!! (i'm laughing)

please. allow me to re-engage this conversation, in Jesus' love, neil

sermonindex May 2, 2013

the Lord is Amazing!....just yesterday....or mayhap the day before, I've been digging into the Psalter, and came to Psalm 103, which is the very Psalm that the young mortally wounded Duncan Campbell started to recite in Gaelic in that crowded casualty clearing station.....so, in love and grace, I re-listened to that dear man's testimony again on my knees....it was wonderful.

We endeavor to shape our own ministries both on Christ, and the human vessels He uses....Duncan is such a human vessel to me, so I really .....my heart leapt when I read what you posted....both you and brother Emeka have brought me such JOY this morning in Jesus by this subject and focus and dialogue....and I bless God for the both of you, May the Love of Christ be upon you both today, neil

E

endlessjoe May 2, 2013

Thank you those gracious words Sir! I'm also filled with delight each time I ponder on those men who shook the continents for our God.

Heaven would really be a heaven not just for its streets of gold, but for the privilege to walk, talk or sing side-by-side with such men as great as these.

Thanks for the book on Evan Roberts Sir. My love for that my "brother from another mother" is almost spiritual. As far as it lieth within me Sir, I never let his words fall to the ground. Each time I discuss him and the Welsh Revival to which he's strongly associated, I feel like taking off my shoes because it seems am treading on holy ground. A statement he made during a lecture to students at Bala college in which he said "the Spirit of Prayer cannot come unless there's is the readiness to work/evangelize," has almost become for me a mantra and a recipe for key-ing into the Spirit of Prayer who's the prelude to every Revival.

I've been to the link on Amazon Sir, but as usual they placed a price tag on the book. Am required to add "to my wish list" and provide Credit card details, pay for shipping etc. Please if you can find any link through which I can download a free pdf copy Sir, I would be grateful. I was lucky sometime ago to download a free pdf copy of D M Philip's book on Evan Roberts with my phone and it's remained one of my most treasured possessions.

QUOTE: "what if.....God sends missionaries FROM Africa to North America?....pray on that would you? " I sincerely would Sir. At d moment, I do not rule out d possibility that this Revival that would set the stage for the last Awakening could have its flashpoint in any of these third-world or less econolically privileged countries. Having worked on this for years, I've learnt not to rule out such a possibility.

God's richest blessings Sir!
Brother Emeka (still at d heart of tropical Africa)

E

endlessjoe May 3, 2013

QUOTE: "Oh, I was weak. My voice wasn't strong. I began to talk about Jesus in Gaelic. There wasn't a man there who could understand me. To them it was a strange language, but a strange stillness and peace came upon the whole casualty station. One young lad said, ‘Trooper, can’t you speak to us in English? We are seeking Jesus."

Thanks for the above quotation and the others you paistakingly posted Dear Brother Collin. I found them particularly helpful I tell you. They made me remember Bro Campbell's other account of the time of his spiritual crisis when he said his daughter told him "Daddy, whatever d cost,go (or get) thru it with God."

E

endlessjoe May 3, 2013

Its always good to see you online Sir! I find your comments at other threads helpful and the weight they carry makes me feel they're inspired by a depth of spiritual experience and not just what somebody read in books.

You once came to my rescue when one of my threads degenerated into a session of heated argument. Couldn't find time to come back to thank you.

Have been away from SI forums for almost six months. Its always good to be back!

B

brothagary May 3, 2013

your most welcomed it been a wile since I posted

you sound very moved in you heart regarding the coming revival ,,and the passed ones ,,it is very very refreshing to see that

you humble attitude is apresiated

blessings

E

endlessjoe May 3, 2013

The pleasure remains mine Sir!

sermonindex May 5, 2013

Brother Emeka

The answer to your question is very simple but you will not like it.

At that time of history and for the earlier stage of the growth of Pentecostalism, there was a great divide between those preaching holiness doctrine and Pentecostalism. We dont see it today because second blessing holiness teaching has just about disappeared and the Pentecostal version has overtaken it.

It is said that Pentecostalism has its roots in the holiness movement but that is only true to a certain extent. This is because tongue speaking was not a part of holiness teaching.

If you read the book jointly authored by Roberts and Penn-Lewis, you will see no teaching on tongues and a section denouncing such things.

Roberts would have been willing to give counsel and pray for those involved with Azusa, but would not associate with it otherwise because he will not have classed it as true revival though he may have thought revival could grow within it. He would not denounce it but would keep his distance.

The same applied to Wesley who nowhere taught tongues.

http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/Hills/Tongues.htm

///VI.—It was never promised that this gift would continue. One passage, Mark xvi. 17, seems to promise it. But every scholar knows that the Gospel of Mark closes with the 8th verse of the last chapter.

All that follows is a spurious addition by a later hand. Different manuscripts have different endings. It is no part of the Bible, and its teachings are questionable. Christians are not taught that they can play with rattle- snakes and cobras and vipers with impunity, nor that they can drink prussic acid and suffer no harm. The spurious "tongues passage" goes with the rest.

Moreover, St. Paul did teach, "Whether there be tongues they shall cease" (1. Cor. xiii. 8). And they did cease. So far as we know, and the Bible record goes, for the last nineteen years of the apostle's life neither he nor any other apostle wrote a word on the subject. The mess which the Corinthian Church made of it, and Paul's rebuke, may have cured the other Churches. After the year A.D. 58, when Paul wrote his sharp letter to the Corinthians, all the Bible-writers drop the subject as completely as if there had never been such a thing as the gift of tongues.

It is reported that three or four passages in the writings of the Fathers through the early centuries mention speaking with tongues. But these only make it perfectly manifest that this gift had its chief service at Pentecost; that it was, save on three occasions, of little value to saint or sinner, so far as we can learn from the Word; that it was peculiarly liable to perversion and abuse; that it was rated the lowest of all the gifts; and that it altogether ceased, just as St. Paul said it would.///

http://www.the-highway.com/tongues_Dollar.html

A

ADisciple May 5, 2013

Krautfrau said, "Roberts would have been willing to give counsel and pray for those involved with Azusa, but would not associate with it otherwise because he will not have classed it as true revival though he may have thought revival could grow within it. He would not denounce it but would keep his distance."

You are saying this, sister, because you knew Roberts personally, of course.

As to what you have said about tongues, the experience of thousands of Christians proves you wrong on this.

Allan

E

endlessjoe May 5, 2013

QUOTE:
"The answer to your question is very simple but you will not like it."
Those words hit me hard and made me prepare for a shocker.

QUOTE: "He would not denounce it but would keep his distance." This was intended to serve as a key but -for me- its turning into a lock. My mind has gotten busy thinking of how Evan Roberts could've done that. I don't DOUBT it for a moment but I just can't help imagining how he'd have stood aside.

Remember am only speculating what history wouldve been had Brother Roberts crossed d Atlantic.

QUOTE: "You are saying this, sister, because you knew Roberts personally, offcourse." Did you have d privilege of knowing Evan Roberts personally Ma'am? May wish to ask you what it was like to meet him in d flesh.

Really appreciate your post Dear Sister! God's richest blessings!

sermonindex May 6, 2013

So brothers, what other reason can you think of to explain why Evan Roberts did not cross the Atlantic, nor any others it seems that were part of the Welsh Revivals? If you can come up with another reason apart from the one I have given I will be interested to hear it as it defies logic otherwise.

It is a fact of history that the new Pentecostalism, was in the process of alienating Holiness folk due to the doctrine of tongues.

Here is a report of what happened in Great Britain due to the split. It describes how the League of Prayer and the International Holiness Mission, opposed the new Pentecostals.

///The International Holiness Mission continued to take this approach, dismissing the Pentecostal movement as “fanaticism.”[21] There was a particular problem for the League because of its own use of the term Pentecostal, usage which came from its equation of the baptism of the Spirit and entire sanctification. The League repeated on many occasions that it had absolutely no connection with “the Tongues movement.”[22] This stance united it with most British conservative evangelical thinking of the period. In 1930, Spiritual Life, which replaced Tongues of Fire after the First World War, insisted that the League was in line with evangelical churches, having nothing to do with modern Pentecostalism.[23

21] The Holiness Mission Journal, June 1919, 48.

[22] Spiritual Life, February 1923, 2.

[23] Spiritual Life, March 1930, 2.

http://www.lcoggt.org/Articles/pentecostal_league_of_prayer.htm///

Oswald Chambers was part of the League of Prayer and did not accept tongues even though he is often quoted by Pentecostals.

Despite this, it is clear that Roberts did have sone contact with Azusa, and could you give some referrences please. The only reason possibly being that there was some sign that there was an opening to him having an influence in correcting them but it is significant that he did not visit them so obviously that hope did not become fulfilled.

Of course I did not know him but I know his doctrine and have read a lot of his co-worker Penn-Lewis` books. I have studied revivals, both the true and the false.

If you read War on the Saints which Roberts co-wrote, there is a chapter in the Appendix which includes an article from a German pastor which explains exactly what is entailed in this false baptism of the Spirit which produces as its fruit, not the perfection of traditional holiness teaching, but a state in which these pseudo spiritual experiences including tongues occur.

*I see that this portion has been removed from the sites I found which print the book. This editing is common in historical holiness writing. Do you wonder why?

Those who are so deceived by Satan, are to be treated with patience to bring them to the truth humbly conscious of the ability of us all to deception, but the ones in this deception are always of a different spirit and will cause division, obviously as the enemy seeks to divide to conquer.

We can see this attitude in Wesley towards Whitfield who opposed the teaching. Wesley kept the lines open between them but I am sure he did notshare a platform with him.

Though Roberts would have had this attitude, as it is in line with scripture, he would not associate with the proponents publically. It is not difficult to understand the actions and even make good guesses in speculating when one is `in the same spirit` or at one with their doctrines.

I am not debating tongues nor wish to, I am merely reporting history and have given the only possible explanations for the man`s actions.

I don`t see any value in `what ifs` in this case. The Pentecostals would be perfectly aware of the teaching they opposed.

sermonindex May 6, 2013

I have found it.

From WAR ON THE SAINTS by Jessie Penn-Lewis and Even Roberts

Light on "Abnormal" Experiencesnote 15.
Extract from a book published in Germany by Pastor
Translated from the German.

Just as in a caricature the outstanding features of the true picture are to be found, so that a likeness is unmistakable, so phenomena which we find in heathen systems, in theosophy so-called, or new Buddhism, in spiritism, etc., resemble to some extent the Divine manifestations called forth by the working of the Holy Spirit upon the spirit of man. They also produce revelations and prophecies, speaking and singing with tongues, healing and miracles. It is of importance that we should study this subject to find an answer to the question as to how these phenomena are brought about. It is self-evident that they are not manifestations of the Holy Spirit. The numerous and exact investigations which are being made in our day into the subject are giving us increasing insight into this dark realm. Powers and possibilities have been discovered in man, which until now have been totally unsuspected. They are designated "subliminal powers," and we speak of "subconciousness."note 16 What physical occurrences accompany these phenomena? The lower nerve-centres (the ganglionic system, or the "vegetative" nerves, as they are called), which have their chief seat in the region round the pit of the stomach, are excited to increased activity. At the same time the central region of the higher nervous system (the cerebral system), which in a normal state of affairs is the medium of conscious perception and action, becomes paralyzed. There is a reversal of the order of nature. The lower nerves take over the duty of the higher ones (a sort of compensation). This state of things comes to pass negatively by the higher organ losing its natural supremacy under pressure of illness, or artificially by hypnotism, auto-suggestion, etc.; and positively by the lower nerves being in some way excited artificially to increased activity, whereby they get the upper hand. These nerves then display abilities which our ordinary organs of sense do not possess, they receive impressions from a realm usually closed to us, such as clairvoyance, presentiments, prophecy, speaking with tongues, etc.

The Mohammedan sooth-sayer, Dschalal-Ed-Dinrumi, describes the trance-state, as follows: "My eyes are closed, and my heart is at the open gate." Anna Katharina Emmerich (1774-1824): "I see the light, not with my eyes, but it is as though I saw it with my heart, (with the nerves which have their seat in the pit of the stomach) . . . that which is actually around me I see dimly with my eyes like one dosing and beginning to dream; my second sight is drawing me forcibly, and is clearer than my natural sight, but it does not take place through my eyes . . ." When in a state of somnambulism, the inner sense, heightened in its activity, perceives outward things as clearly and more so than when awake, when it recognizes tangible objects with eyes tightly closed and absolutely unable to see, just as well as by sight; this takes place, according to the unanimous declaration of all somnambulists, through the pit of the stomach, i.e., through the nerves, which have their seat in this region . . . . And it is from this part that the nerves are set in action which move the organs of speech (in speaking with tongues, etc.) . . . .

Numberless cases of false mysticisms through all the centuries of Church History display the same characteristics, the sub-consciousness being always the medium of such perception and functions. They are morbid, coming under the garb of Divine manifestations to lead souls astray. Now, it is very significant that according to the assertions of the leaders, it is an activity of the sub-consciousness that we meet with in the "Pentecostal Movement" (so called). We read in a report of an "International Pentecostal Conference."

"On Tuesday, a Pastor introduced the discussion. The main topic was the working of the sub-conscious mind in messages and prophecy. Much confusion prevailed concerning the relation of our consciousness to our sub-consciousness. The Scriptural discrimination was preferable (1 Cor. 14: 14, 15), where they were spoken of as 'understanding' and 'spirit.'"

"When Christ lives in us He lies in our hearts and in the heart are two chambers. In one room lives the conscience and through the conscience I can know that Christ lives in me. In the other room of my heart there is the sub-consciousness, and there also Christ lives. We look at 1 Cor. 14: 14, 'For if I pray in a tongue my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.'"

Notice the expression "my spirit," (my sub-conscious mind), and also the expression "my understanding," i.e.--"When my spirit prays in tongues, my sub-conscious mind prays!"

In the Declaration of the Second Mulheim "Pentecostal Conference," September 15th, 1909, we read:--

"In 1 Cor 14: 14 Luther's translation Paul makes a distinction between the understanding and the spirit of man. By the word understanding he means the conscious, and by the word spirit the unconscious, spiritual life, life of man. In this unconscious spiritual life--in modern language also termed 'sub-consciousness'--God has placed the gift of speaking with tongues and prophecy . . . . ."

According to this, the spiritual life of the believer is synonymous with the sub-consciousness of the somnambulist. And the more highly developed this sub-consciousness is in any individual, the more highly developed would be their spiritual life. Just try substituting the word sub-consciousness in those passages where the Scripture speaks of the spirit of man; for example Ps. 51: 17, Ps. 77: 6, Isa. 66: 2, Acts 7: 59, Acts 18: 5, Acts 20: 22, Romans 1: 9, Romans 2: 29, Romans 8: 16, 1 Cor. 2: 11, 1 Cor. 4: 21, 1 Cor. 5: 5, Gal. 6: 1, Gal. 6: 18, Eph. 4: 23, 1 Thess. 5: 23.

Those in whom the sub-consciousness becomes active in the manner described above, feel as it were an electric stream passing through the body, which is an exciting of the nerves, which have their central seat in the pit of the stomach. It is from thence that the jaws are moved in speaking with tongues.

One of the leaders of the "Pentecostal Movement," in describing the process of this so-called Baptism of the Spirit in his body, made use of the singular comparison that it seemed to him as though there were in his body an inverted bottle. The simile was incomprehensible to me, but this way of expressing it was most strikingly illuminated when I find an almost identical expression used by a Mohammedan sooth-sayer. Tewekkul Beg, a pupil of Mollah Schah, was receiving instruction from his master as to how he could get into the ecstatic state. He says: "After he had bound my eyes . . . I saw something in my inner being resembling a fallen tumbler . . . When this object was placed upright a feeling of unlimitless bliss filled my being."

This feeling of bliss is another characteristic feature of this class of occurrences. By exciting the lower nervous system a feeling of intense rapture is regularly produced . . . . At first we find connected with it usually, involuntary contraction of the muscles and movement of the limbs, in consequence of the unnatural inversion of the nervous system.

Pastor Paul again says:--

"If anyone is to prophesy in the way I have now learnt, God must be able to move the mouth of the one prophesying, as He formerly moved the mouth of Balaam's ass. The ass understood nothing of the words which she spoke, she only said what she was to say. There is a danger in uttering things we understand. It is so easy to mix in one's own thoughts, and then to utter what one thinks. This occurs without our intending it in the least. That is the reason why God trains His prophets in so preparing them that they utter exactly what the Spirit gives them. Speaking in strange tongues is a good preliminary school. There one learns to speak as the mouth is moved. One speaks without knowing what one is saying by simply following the position of the mouth. Just so in prophecy; there, too, one speaks as led by the position of the mouth. Speaking with tongues and prophesying are both on the same principle."

It is evident that in these phenomena we have the exact opposite of what the Scriptures understand by the communication of the Spirit. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the spirit of man, HE IS BROUGHT BACK TO A NORMAL CONDITION; the SPIRIT acquires the full authority given it by the Creator over the powers of the soul, and through the soul over the body. The conscious personal life is once more completely under the authority of the spirit. The dependency upon God, which man sought to break off, in his mania for exalting himself by setting his reason, his emotions, or the flesh upon the throne, is restored again. The Spirit of God can exercise once more His controlling and quickening power. The deeds of the flesh are put to death by the Spirit, the powers and the gifts of the Spirit developed, the man becomes spiritual, full of the Holy Spirit."

sermonindex May 6, 2013

The following was written after the quote given. Jessie Penn-Lewis stood in exactly the same position as Roberts regarding the speaking of tongues. Those who opposed tongues as from Satan would by no means attend any meeting where these manifestations were taking place.

Note by Mrs. Penn-Lewis (Editor of The Overcomer).

The light given by Herr Lohmann will open the eyes of many perplexed believers, and give them intelligent understanding of much that has distressed them, and caused painful division among the most devoted children of God. It will also confirm the statements we have made concerning the working of evil spirits in the circumference of a believer, at the very same time that, up to the extent of his consciousness, he may know nothing against himself before the Lord; for Satan and his emissaries are well aware of the laws of the human frame, and work along their line, arousing and exciting the natural life, under the guise of its being spiritual.

The false conception of "surrender" as yielding the body to supernatural power, with the mind ceasing to act, is the highest subtlety of the enemy, and is exposed as such in this paper, for it brings about--as Herr Lohmann explains--the paralysis of the "cerebral" system, i.e., the action of the mind, and allows the "vegetative nerves" full control and activity, excited by evil spirits, for the Holy Spirit dwells in, and acts through the spirit of man, and not through either nerve centre, which have both to be under the control of the spirit.

We have also pointed out again and again that "claiming the Blood" cannot protect us from the enemy if in any way he is given ground, e.g., if the cerebral nerves cease to act by "letting the mind go blank" (!) and the vegetative nerves are awakened to act in their place, so that the latter are excited to give "thrills" and "streams of life" through the body, no claiming of the precious Blood of Christ will prevent these physical laws acting when the conditions for action are fulfilled. Hence, the strange fact which has perplexed many, that abnormal experiences manifestly contrary to the Spirit of God, have taken place whilst the person was earnestly repeating words about the "Blood."

Moreover, the arousing of the "vegetative nerves" to such abnormal activity that "floods of life" have appeared to pour through the whole body--the enemy whispering at the same moment, "this is Divine"--(1) dulls the mind and makes it inert in action, (2) causes a craving in the recipient for more of this "Divine" life, (3) leads to the danger of ministration of it to others, and all that follows as this path is pursued in honest faith and confidence of being "specially advanced" in the life of God.

Should any reading this discover their own case depicted let them thank God for knowledge of the truth, and (1) simply reject by an attitude of will, all that is not of God; (2) consent to trust God in His word without any "experiences"; (3) stand on Rom. 6: 11, with James 4: 7, in respect to the Adversary. John 16: 13, "Through the Eternal Spirit."

sermonindex May 6, 2013

We have also pointed out again and again that "claiming the Blood" cannot protect us from the enemy if in any way he is given ground, e.g., if the cerebral nerves cease to act by "letting the mind go blank" (!) and the vegetative nerves are awakened to act in their place, so that the latter are excited to give "thrills" and "streams of life" through the body, no claiming of the precious Blood of Christ will prevent these physical laws acting when the conditions for action are fulfilled. Hence, the strange fact which has perplexed many, that abnormal experiences manifestly contrary to the Spirit of God, have taken place whilst the person was earnestly repeating words about the "Blood."
Moreover, the arousing of the "vegetative nerves" to such abnormal activity that "floods of life" have appeared to pour through the whole body--the enemy whispering at the same moment, "this is Divine"--(1) dulls the mind and makes it inert in action, (2) causes a craving in the recipient for more of this "Divine" life, (3) leads to the danger of ministration of it to others, and all that follows as this path is pursued in honest faith and confidence of being "specially advanced" in the life of God.

From krautfrau on 2013/5/6 9:18:38 quoting Jessy Pen-Lewis

I find this explanation to the dangers of passivity very revealing and the language really very strange for modern parlance. Of course when Mrs Pen-Lewis wrote this she would not have had the benefit of a more formal way of describing what is now called Cognition versus sympathetic nervous response. I can't be sure of this but what seems to be at the root of this explanation probably goes beyond the issue of simply speaking in tongues. Nee explains speaking in tongues precisely in terms of the gift of tongues, when expressed, as by passing the rational functions of the brain precisely because it arises out of the spirit. Given that Nee was very respectful of Pen-Lewis I wonder how he arrived at a different presentation.

In other words I am asking whether Pen-Lewis was really addressing a deeper issue of passivity from a Hindu perspective of passivity (nihilism) and meditation where the rational and cognitive functions of the brain is wilfully rendered passive both by reason of a philosophical paradigm of nihilism (nothingness) as a cognitive basis for justifying the subsequent meditational practise of breathing etc, in order to make the adept "open" to so-called higher spiritual awareness of the Kosmos. This is classical hindu philosophy and I know that Pen-Lewis spent some time in India and became aware of its consequences. Do you think that she is applying this same understanding to explain tongues as a counterfeit activity, or is she simply against tongues and is explaining what is in fact a physiological atheistic practise which cannot be entered into passively in the first instance? It must be consented to. In short I speak in tongues and yet I once rejected the idea precisely because I could not rationally connect an unknown language (of angels or men) with an act of the will. How does one use volition in a gift which arises in the spirit, and takes no seeming account of the mind?

sermonindex May 6, 2013

amrkelly

I believe that Mrs Penn-Lewis was refering to the pseudo baptism of the Spirit which allows Satan entrance because the person is not discerning the spirits. She did not write the piece about the vegative state she was commenting on it.

I did not read any teaching on tongues in Nee`s books, can you give me a reference please? His position on this did not differ from the others involved with Keswick and therefore non Pentecostal.

But yes she was saying that the experiences in other religions is the same one.