Are terms like "fulltime" and "in the ministry" divisive?

Hi All,
I am going to answer my own question and say yes.
Let me give you some background.

I recently was writing an email to my pastor who is also a friend to explain what I thought about the above subject.
I spent an hour and the email came out really bad and I was down in the dumps.So I didnt send it.
But the opening lines of a poem of which I have never had any inclination of doing or the writing ability to carry it out and it explained it all what I wanted to say.
It was Prophetic I believe.
The point is if some are in full time ministry by inference that means the rest are in part time ministry,if we use the term "in the ministry" by inference it means the rest are not.The Pastor/Preacher has to realize that they are only part of the body and need to get back into a biblical position.
This is partly why we have pew fillers;why should'nt they just go through the motions when they by inference are told constantly they are part time and lay sometimes not even by inference but directly.
The church I go to is denominational so I realize this is a hard message for them.But isnt it reasonable and dare I say it fair that the leaders of denominations and Churches "repent" themselves first before they come and ask others too.
yours staff

Hi staff,

I consider my whole life, full-time ministry. The ministry of reconciliation that the Lord has given to us by His blood and Holy Spirit, is FULL-TIME.

The "Normal Christian Life" is that Jesus goes with you everywhere and not just to a "church" building or "meeting".

You are a minister at home, in the workplace, in stores on the street, at conventions, and even when you're hunting with buddies. Everywhere!!

I don't have to aspire to "full-time" ministry since I have always been in it the day the Lord called me to Him.

I have seen how it is divisive and even a point of "pride".

I heard a preacher/pastor once say (as I was visiting his church) that when he first "came into the ministry" after seminary that he "had an evangelistic heart and his early days were winning souls and teaching others the overcoming life, but now 30 years later, I am standing before you as an admnistrator of a mortgage, and people and buildings and parking lots and programs. All I do is administrate and I long ago stopped really working "in the ministry".

I was pretty much blown away that a Pastor of a large church (3000 - too large for a living room), was actually admitting this. I think it was a time of cleansing for him.

Hopefully, some people in the congregation thought to themselves the same thing but only tailored to what they have become: Sunday morning spectators.

We all need to get back to our first love and give to other s what we have freely received. Let the love of God that was shed abroad in our hearts when we first met Him, change our lives again and change others.

Pastors don't need to turn into "admins" and sheep don't need to turn into spectating "pew sitters".

Anyone who has been filled with the Holy Spirit is in the ministry. We all have the "Big Jesus". The guy on the stage doesn't have the "big Jesus" while those in the pews only have the "little Jesus".

But does the Big Jesus have us?

May the Lord help us all if that is what Christianity is about.

Pilgrim

I think our culture divides everything, including ourselves, into little boxes. Once we have the boxes, we need people to own those boxes...these people are called experts. The problem is that experts feel the need to keep everyone else from having access to their boxes.

There does seem to be a divide between "spiritual vocations" and other vocations. This is perhaps a very unspiritual perspective.

MC

Staff said, "The point is if some are in full time ministry by inference that means the rest are in part time ministry,if we use the term "in the ministry" by inference it means the rest are not.The Pastor/Preacher has to realize that they are only part of the body and need to get back into a biblical position."

I agree. I am in full-time ministry... seeking in all things to minister unto the Lord. Though I never stand behind a pulpit.

The same can be said for "living by faith." It has come to mean you don't work for a living, you are in full-time ministry, and you "live by faith."

You mean all those years when I was working hard and supporting my family and trusting God in all things, I wasn't living by faith?

Anything can be divisive if you let it be. I think we're splitting hairs here. To say that one is in full-time ministry is not saying that they are the only ones who's entire life is dedicated to the work of the Gospel. I am in part-time ministry. This is not because I only try to serve God half the time. It's because I work part-time at a church. Words and phrases have multiple meanings, and being "in the ministry" has come to mean that you work at a church or some sort of Christian institution who's main purpose is to reach the lost and encourage the faithful. It's an issue of etymology, not spirituality.

Glad you brought that up, Adisciple.

People that have a "job", do indeed live by faith.

Institutional pastors and their staff have a job, a budget, salaries and a payment system with rules for paying into it and it in turn produces income several days a week which is collected to pay bills, and salaries and fund other things.

You on the other hand only have yourself, your health and your own hard work and trusting God to help you take care of your family, instead of hundreds if not thousands paying into your "finance plan".

But that was a very good observation and there are many more I am sure that produce these "disconnects" with reality.

houhou,

I would say you are in part-time church work and full-time ministry.

Ministry encompasses your whole life and that is what I think people are trying to say. I don't think they are splitting hairs because there are mindsets out there that actually believe if you have a "regular" job and are faithful to go to work everyday and take care of your family that you are not considered as spiritual as someone in "fulltime" ministry. I think nothing could be farther from the truth.

I don't work at a church yet I never consider it NOT my main purpose to reach the lost. I probably speak to more lost people out here in the world than if I was in a church all day.

I think the other brothers have a very good point which obviously many are familiar with.

Here is another one: Are you clergy or a layman?

I would have to concur with both sides of this to a certain degree. On the one hand I agree that we are all in "full-time" ministry whether or not we work in a church building or organization. There definitely is a problem when believers become only spectators and pew-sitters. This is seen all too often in most churches in America. It is a problem when believers don't think they can be full-time ministers and hold a secular job at the same time. Paul the apostle held a secular job building tents yet was the greatest full-time minister next to Christ.

On the other hand there are some who devote themselves completely to ministry tasks such as planting a church or evangelism, and they receive support from another church or group of believers for such tasks. Biblically speaking there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that per se. Christ and the apostles lived off of love offerings from the people they ministered to.

Bottom-line for me is, we should be cautious of splitting hairs over semantics, but also understand the importance of how words or phrases are meant and understood.

I like the perspective that Compton brought out regarding "boxes". The world is adept at dividing people into boxes, because it is much more manageable to either control them or stay away from them. A perfect example is the caste system in India.

We should have no caste systems in the church, but we do.

James 2:1-9
Chapter 2
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Hi Oracio,
You Quote:
On the other hand there are some who devote themselves completely to ministry tasks such as planting a church or evangelism, and they receive support from another church or group of believers for such tasks. Biblically speaking there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that per se. Christ and the apostles lived off of love offerings from the people they ministered to. end

I Agree with you here their is nothing wrong with Churches paying Pastors etc a full time wage.In fact if the Church can support like that it is great.
The problem is that terms and terminology are structures and if we build on the wrong foundation like "in the ministry" then it has a great negative effect.
I would say that it is primary reason that we do not have a genuine out pouring of the Spirit in the west today.
I know that sounds extreme but let me explain.
The terminology and mindset that hold Pastor/Preachers today as the leading ministries in the church just because they have gone to bible college is "in the ministry" mindset.It is Ok to go to bible college but it is not the main reason that you become leader.You become leader because you are called.
You see it effects the operation of the gifts because it is first apostles, then Prophets etc.I think that God finds it hard to pour out his Spirit on a structure that is not in
correct working order.If the gifts were in correct working order then the church would be effective in bringing itself to repentance from Sin.How can the Pastors lead repentance when it is they that have to do the repenting(change) first.
Their is a big difference from saying "full time Church Worker" and a " full time minister" as someone said.
What I am talking about is no small issue but probably the main difference between the church then and now structure wise.
Terminology is hugely important for instance we have built on biblical terminology like "born again" and quite rightly but its biblical.
The Church needs to be restored to working order
Yours Staff

Hi Hoohoo,
I think we need to restore biblical terms and then everyone would no their position in the body and no confusion would arise.The up shot is that the body is not in proper working order at its best and at its worst one part of the body is saying it doesnt need the other part,
Result is the lost aren't been reached as they should and the faithful arent encouraged,
Yours Staff

Hi Frank,
your quote:
I agree with the others who say that they are in full-time ministry, this is how I would describe myself since the day that I was born-again.

This is how God sees you as well,this is how God see all of his because it is biblical,

Yours Staff

Pilgrim777,

I am both clergy and layman. I am paid a small amount for the work that I do at the church, but I hold a regular job as well. That's not really why I say that I'm both though. I'm both because God has called me to pastor a church and I'm working to that end. But God also called me into a Royal Priesthood on the day He saved me. God has called me to full-time "ministry" in a church, but that doesn't mean God has blessed me with superior spirituality. He's called me to lead His Church. In my opinion, true leaders are not bosses, but co-laborers who focus the efforts of an already productive person. That's why I will always be both, because we are all co-laborers in the cause of Christ.

I know many disagree with and don't like the clergy/laity model. Those who feel this way have very good points and I can't always disagree. I just feel that we sometimes try to throw the baby out with the bath water. Instead of trying to fix things that have gotten confused, we want to completely rework the whole system. I often times sense pride and jealousy in the arguments against the predominate model. I'm just being honest and not casting stones, please believe me.

There seems to be a lack of empathy for clergy who many times feel trapped in the system as much as you feel slighted by the system.

Frank, you often encourage people to get out of the system. I say stay and fight for it. Mega-churches live to pay their own bills. In that, I think I'd agree with everyone. But mega-churches still are able to do much more where money is involved than small bodies can. People are there and many of the people attending these churches are as lost as the guys stumbling home at 4:00am after a night of drinking. The harvest is ripe, even in our churches. Don't run from a flawed and struggling system. Stay and fight for the people! Fight for the souls sitting in the pews! They need Christ too!

Yes, semantics can be important and having a Biblical model is also important. But I still think we are splitting hairs with the whole thing. Yes, some pastors have their noses in the air about being in the "ministry". Most though, only mean that their day to day lives revolve solely around the Church. They are dying for people to help and even if they aren't, they are.

If we are sure in our beliefs and role, what does it matter what someone else thinks? Do your job. Pray, seek God, implore the Holy Spirit to guide you and stay where you are and fight! If your pastor doesn't think you're in full-time ministry because you hold a regular job, then just smile and continue in what you know to be the truth.

Ok, well what you just did is encouraging people to leave. You may not say, "You need to leave", but you are telling them it's all wrong. People want to be involved with what's right, and so they will think about leaving. You are encouraging that.

I may have led you to believe that I agree with the current model of one man running the show and everyone else sitting there like the pastor is the only one capable of telling them anything. That wasn't my intent. I don't believe the current system is predicated on a one man model. It has certainly turned into that though. What I'm encouraging people to do is to be missionaries in our churches in this country. That's basically what I consider myself to be. Yes, the system is flawed. But there are many, many people sitting in the pews who at least have an interest in God, however misguided.

To look at the current system and judge it unworthy and not worth redeeming is unconscionable. Most of the men pastoring churches in this model were brought up to believe it is the way it's supposed to be done, as do most of the people in the pews. How is anything going to change if we bow out whenever something happens that we don't agree with?

You will one day find me in one of these churches begging, pleading and cajoling congregants to exercise the gifts within them that are lying dormant. We are many parts, but one body. I'm called to pastor. You may be called to agitate and make people think. I only hope you are trying to agitate those who need to stop and think about the current system.

We don't really disagree. I just don't want to leave the current system because it's flawed. Again, I see myself as a missionary and our "system" churches need all the help they can get. They're dying and the people are dying with them, regardless of whether the system is wrong or right.

by hoohoou on 2013/5/7 8:19:54
What I'm encouraging people to do is to be missionaries in our churches in this country. That's basically what I consider myself to be. Yes, the system is flawed. But there are many, many people sitting in the pews who at least have an interest in God, however misguided.

Yes, the "system" is flawed, but God's (and I hate to use the word "system") Kingdom is not. We should not think that the "system" is all there is for all of us. It's not.

There are many, many people in the "system", that do love God and have a heart for him and that is why they have an uneasy, nagging feeling in their heart while they sit in the pew. Others are very happy to be there. They have their friends and contrary to popular opinion, they do have meaningful relationships and deep fellowship. This is not generally the norm, but these relationships do exist. I personally never even bring up the conversation to someone to leave their church because for one thing, I am not God, the Holy Spirit and it is not my place to instruct individual Believers in their personal walk with God. That is the domain of the Holy Spirit. When the Lord speaks to an individual "Come out of her my people", then He will also personalize what that means to that individual. Of course, generally, it means "do not partake of anything that is not of Him". But, specifically, only the Holy Spirit who knows our hearts can apply that in someone's life.

I have seen the "system", in men's hearts in home fellowships. Get the idea? It's like you take the Hebrew children out of Egypt, but you can't take "Egypt" out of the Hebrew children.

To look at the current system and judge it unworthy and not worth redeeming is unconscionable. Most of the men pastoring churches in this model were brought up to believe it is the way it's supposed to be done, as do most of the people in the pews. How is anything going to change if we bow out whenever something happens that we don't agree with?

Unconscionable is a strong word. I think it is just a fact that God redeems people not systems and the world does have it's very own religious system whether we like to admit it or not. Coming to God on our own terms has existed ever since Adam and Eve covered themselves with their own works (leaves) and Cain offered up the works of his own hands. The "system" is mostly built on mammon and people's reputations and if you try to change it, you will be in for a rude awakening and realize that it is better to just heed the Lord's voice and "Come out of her". Some people "peacefully coexist", and I just wonder what they have to compromise in their own spirit to do that.

You will one day find me in one of these churches begging, pleading and cajoling congregants to exercise the gifts within them that are lying dormant. We are many parts, but one body. I'm called to pastor. You may be called to agitate and make people think. I only hope you are trying to agitate those who need to stop and think about the current system.

Forget the "agitating" and making people think about the system and how to change it. Why do that unless you intend to stay in it and need them to support what you support? You should just exhort them to know God but the danger in that, is they may leave you in the system all by yourself. What is the Lord speaking to you?

No man has ever been able to change the system, because it derives its life from a different root. I'm sorry, but that is just the truth. If it derived its life from Jesus Christ, then there would be nothing to change. So, to think we can change something or eradicate it while staying in its midst, is wishful thinking.

We don't really disagree. I just don't want to leave the current system because it's flawed. Again, I see myself as a missionary and our "system" churches need all the help they can get. They're dying and the people are dying with them, regardless of whether the system is wrong or right.

If you see yourself as a missionary to a 'dark place" then you must realize as you evangelize people and the Lord uses you, that you may be setting people free to leave the system. Even though you are not actively voicing that being in the system is their problem. Because, that is not the problem. The problem is always NOT "being in Christ". It is when one is fully submersed "in Christ" and abiding in Him, that the Holy Spirit will speak to them to "come out of everything that is not of Him" and "touch not the unclean thing." Does this realization that people may leave the system, bother you?

Yes, they should be flourishing in the Lord. "The Kingdom of God is not meat nor drink, but righteous, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost". Romans 14:17

I would like to know how you are going about "changing the system". Has it been met with alienation and persecution or were they really happy about it? If so, what is the reason everyone is "dying"?

Now, before we get too crazy, I am not characterizing "meeting in a building" as being in the system. No, it is not as simple as that. But, I won't define for you what "being in the system" is all about. Why? Because if you have the Holy Spirit, He is best at speaking to you about your very own situation and because the "system" reaches into our hearts with insidious tentacles, only the Holy Spirit can best describe it to each person.

But at a very high level, "Whatever is not of Christ's character and nature", is uh, well you get the idea.

Pilgrim

Hi Pilgrim,
You quote(I would like to know how you are going about "changing the system". )

If we believe that the word of God has power,then we point out scripture in power.With God every thing is within reach.Their are two obvious listing of the gifts and one not so obvious and the interesting thing is that all three talk about unity and oneness.It is crucial and paramount that if the gifts are not restored to working order then this unity of the spiritual gifts can not be achieved.
Where brothers dwell in unity type thing cannot be achieved
unless this is unimportant to God.Then if it is not important why spend so many paragraphs on the subject.
I would like to point out that John The Baptist was from a priestly family but he delibrately was sent by God from outside the system both religous and the world,
Yours Staff

Hi Staff,

I believe the word of God has power to save souls inside the system and call them out, giving them the requisite power to turn away from anything that is not of Him.

The ekklesia are the "called out ones". The message of the prophets in the OT and Jesus and the Apostles in the New Testament was to turn away (repent) from all that is not of God and turn towards Him. This is the calling out of those with ears to hear. This is God calling us to Himself. He has no interest in changing "systems" of men. When He changes a person's heart they leave all to follow Him. In fact, that is His command and calling. He dwells "without the camp" of human systems and calls us to dwell with Him, "outside the camp", because that is where He can be found. (Heb 13:13).

He was crucified outside the camp. Inside the "camp" are all the systems of men, the kingdoms of darkness camouflaged as the kingdoms of this world. Inside earthly Jerusalem you find the political, religious, commercial, social and religious systems. Jesus dwells outside of all of these in His Church, though we live in the world, we are not of it.

Jerusalem above is our "mother" and where we dwell, the City of Zion. We should not be consorting with other "cities" and "dwelling" in them.

I am not saying that God does not call anyone to rescue souls, in fact He does. I will not even say that He does not send His people into the "system" to bring His message, because again, in fact He emphatically does. All through the Scriptures, faithful men are bringing His uncompromising word to anyone and everyone in the "system". They sow His seed and though not all will fall on good ground, some will. Narrow is the road.

When the Church becomes comfortable with the world's religious system (or any other system, it is all idolatry and one big religiou anyway), Christianity, no...God's Word and message is no longer spoken or lived with unflinching clarity. And then He sends His faithful men or women again to call His people out. It is always the same thing. He is always calling us out of this world unto Him.

Look what the church turned into after the 1st and 2nd century. Many people went one way and some people went another way. The many became a big religious system and spawned many others through the centuries while a few stayed faithful. We have a cloud of wonderful witnesses that stayed faithful in every generation and held fast to Him because they were called to Him. The "called out ones" can go anywhere in this world that their Lord commands them to go, but the differentiating thought that I am trying to communicate is that they will not "put on" any "garment" that has been "spotted by the flesh". They don't want any part of any "system" and certainly no part of anything that is not Jesus.

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

The Called out Ones know that their calling is to Him and they can only do what He does.

Jesus went in and out of the system, but did not camp in it. The Apostles went in and out, but they always came out.

Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

I hope everyone can understand what I am trying to say.

I believe the revival we all pray for will only come when men and women throw off "the garment spotted by the flesh" and speak the truth, no matter what comes.

Pilgrim